[Gyro]

I had this epiphany around yesterday; I was coming down from a weeklong adderall study binge and I was experiencing extremely negative thought patterns and I indulged these thoughts, thinking they were "me" but in reality these thoughts are the direct result of serotonin depletion.
So I started listening to some motivational YouTube videos (say what you want but these things are designed to produce a certain effect) , and immediately felt a lot better.

This leads me to believe that our thought patterns are directly influenced by the environment and chemical interplay within the system itself, not a product of "ourselves"

For those who have done acid, think about what constitutes a "good" trip (good people AND good setting) vs. a "bad" trip (bad people OR bad setting). I do believe this has a direct corollary to the holistic human experience.

I think depression IS a chemical imbalance BUT can be alleviated with the proper alterations to one's setting as well as "people".

When feeling depressed, one should immediately realize to not take any of those thoughts personally/seriously and to instead change something about the environment so that those thought patterns can deplete.
Short term alleviations = shit as simple as listening to positive upbeat music, short personal vacation, radio shows, children's cartoons.....as well as the converse: making it difficult to access social media, blocking negative forums/websites, trashing negative music....make it as difficult as possible to access/indulge negative media,


Anxiety is the same beast but these thought patterns emerge as a result of your neural networks not having any appropriate "memory references".
Look at the stereotype of beta males with social anxiety: shut-in basement dwellers. This individual has very little to no interaction with people and therefore has not formed the neural networks necessary to anticipate what to do in a conversation. Therefore this creates a difficult cycle.
Easiest way to alleviate this = sign up for classes/coaching; most likely it will be difficult to get your mind right but having someone WITH the neural networks already firmly established guide you and push you to apply (KEY) will help you to slowly but surely form these neural networks.

Honestly learning to not take your thoughts too seriously, and learning that they are actually being influenced by the environment to a large degree takes a huge burden off your shoulders. With only a little bit of effort you can easily control your thoughts and direct yourself in the direction in which you wish to go.
Remember: "You" are not your thoughts, the only job "you" have is to make active life-forming decisions based on these thoughts.

[Onto]

I agree a change of scenery can make all the difference. But I do believe you are your thoughts. It's what defines you as you. Some would say your actions define you, but your actions come from what you think should be done in the world, the way the world should be. This has been referred to as one's "world-view".

I think depression can occur when there is a gap between our world-view and reality. One of the things that has helped me bridge that gap is to:

1) Think about what it would take for the gap to be filled.

2) What are the reasons it's not being filled?

3) Is there a contradiction at play that is preventing it?

For example, I really want a good, stable, wholesome woman who doesn't have a goddess complex but every hot stripper I date just seems to cause me problems in the end. What's wrong with the world where I can't get some hot, sexy dancer that will want to forgo all other male attention and surrender herself only to me?

Or from a woman's point of view, "Why can't I find a nice, stable, faithful, hard-working man who's also an edgy, adventurous bad-boy who lives by his own rules, and is full of surprises?"

The world is one of opposites and everyone is trying to resolve them in some way. Trouble is these kinds of opposites only exist when there is a removal of the other so they really can't co-exist in space and time. It's like driving down the road and attempting to take a left and right turn simultaneously. It's a mission impossible. You can go back and forth though, and many do.

I think the only way to resolve the opposites is to see the contradiction at play in whatever is specifically depressing you. When you see that in a deep way you are rising above the contradiction and it no longer matters to you. Depression is replaced with the laughter of insight at how silly our demand was in the first place.

Edit: And what I described above is harder than it sounds when we apply it to every little thing that upsets us in our daily life. It's quite exhausting really.

[RichieP]

Your ideas are well-intentioned and possibly useful.

But depression/anxiety exist on continuums, ranging from very mild - where the solution is sunshine/exercise/join social groups - to crippling and debilitating, where the answer is more likely months of therapy, self-growth work, and pharmacological treatments if really necessary.

A bit of youtube and a vacation won't move the needle for someone with severe depression, ptsd, anxiety, etc.

[Lizard King]

(08-12-2016 08:53 AM)RichieP Wrote:  

Your ideas are well-intentioned and possibly useful.

But depression/anxiety exist on continuums, ranging from very mild - where the solution is sunshine/exercise/join social groups - to crippling and debilitating, where the answer is more likely months of therapy, self-growth work, and pharmacological treatments if really necessary.

A bit of youtube and a vacation won't move the needle for someone with severe depression, ptsd, anxiety, etc.

I think what OP has figured out, his a way to control part of his mind. When I say 'mind', part of that is conscious, part sub-conscious, I do think it is possible to influence the sub-conscious mind a bit.

I completely agree with you that people with some forms of negative psychological condition will not have much control, hence why they're suffering and require some tailored attention.

"Depression/depressed" is a catch-all term, like many other medical and psychological terms. And we used to call PTSD, "shell-shock". And both are catch-all terms because in each instance there can be idiosyncrasies that make one condition stand out from another. A lot of aspects of the human condition are difficult to explain logically or from an empirical approach, and conversely this aspect has been exploited by those in control of Western culture and their useful idiots.

Some people will be able to navigate out of mental/psychological abberrations/problems, some won't. So many variables at work that it becomes difficult to codify, and most of the evidence is anecdotal.

I think what OP was trying to allude to, is that it's good to do some kind of housekeeping to your mind and thoughts.

[Gyro]

(08-12-2016 08:48 AM)Onto Wrote:  

I agree a change of scenery can make all the difference. But I do believe you are your thoughts. It's what defines you as you. Some would say your actions define you, but your actions come from what you think should be done in the world, the way the world should be. This has been referred to as one's "world-view".

I think depression can occur when there is a gap between our world-view and reality. One of the things that has helped me bridge that gap is to:

1) Think about what it would take for the gap to be filled.

2) What are the reasons it's not being filled?

3) Is there a contradiction at play that is preventing it?

Very interesting point and those three thinking guidelines you have provided seem extremely powerful/useful for people stuck in negative thought patterns. I still do think that those thoughts are not "you" but to come to this conclusion let's first define ,"you".

According to spiritual belief systems, "you" = non-personal human soul
According to science, "you" = biological specimen, more specifically, an ape

So "you" are either an ape or a soul...doesn't matter which through this lens.
The mind is a biological tool that serves to guide the decision making process of the ape...but it is NOT the ape.

-->The mind was designed to take in stimuli from the environment, and to interpret the data accordingly...and this interpretation system is flawed since it developed in a purely non-human environment for millions of years and now placed in a system entirely comprised of human variables (government, law, etc). Your thoughts ARE this interpretation system.

What I'm asking is,

Why do sexy pole dancers think the way they do? and why do adventerous, edgy players think the way they do?

I say it is a gradual morphing process that is a total sum result of life experiences up to that point (how their parents treated them, socioeconomic status, amount of attention from peers, etc.)

Take a beautiful girl, put her in an isolated chamber, and have speakers blasting, "you're worthless, you're shit" for hours on end for say a year...I guarantee you that girl will think that she's worthless and shit coming out (most likely extremely depressed).
Therefore implying that the environment (the speakers, isolated room) having a principle effect on her thought processes.

[Onto]

Gyro, you bring up some good and important topics. I wish I had time to reply now, but I've only got about 20 mins to pack and head out the door for a weekend road trip. Which is good in a way because it will give me time to think about your post.

Will circle back early next week.

[Easy_C]

Classes/Coaching are a good start.

One thing I can recall is that when you are that depressed, it is difficult to make yourself actually get out and do anything. For me the best remedy to "stabilize" myself was to offload as much of my decision making ability as possible. For example I started spending the extra cash to get a personal trainer because that way it was always an appointment I had to keep......when it is that way you can't procrastinate or skip out on it.

[National Crusader]

If you need drugs in order to study you might have serious problems. For this kind of stuff you only hear in the US and it's one part of decadent society's problems. My advice: get off that scam medicine for nonexisting disease.

[J Sway]

Aside from the intangibles such as feelings, thoughts, and metaphysics, there's legitimate physiological things going on that contribute to depressive episodes, whether they be temporary or indeterminate in length.

Lack of exercise, improper diet, poor sleep and/or lack of REM sleep, any one or combination of the three, especially when combined with chemicals that alter or tweak the brain's normal functioning, are essentially a recipe for a depressive episode. Over a long enough timeline, these things will lead to a "rewiring" of the brain that results in a subject who finds themselves accepting and, to an extent, even loving the depressive state they are in. A sort of mental "Stockholm Syndrome".

As for the Adderall induced introspective on despression, stimulants and nootropics are great things, but should really only be used as a supplement to an already healthy lifestyle.

[J Sway]

(08-13-2016 10:08 AM)Easy_C Wrote:  

Classes/Coaching are a good start.

One thing I can recall is that when you are that depressed, it is difficult to make yourself actually get out and do anything. For me the best remedy to "stabilize" myself was to offload as much of my decision making ability as possible. For example I started spending the extra cash to get a personal trainer because that way it was always an appointment I had to keep......when it is that way you can't procrastinate or skip out on it.

Decision fatigue is a real thing when the depression is deep. It almost feels like any decision you make wont make a difference, but that's really just the depression talking. It seems trite to say, but the old sayings of "one day at a time" and "one foot in front of the other" really hold true when stuck in a deeply depressive state.

For me, it was a matter of taking at least one clearly actionable step every day that would move me in an upward direction. A little exercise. A proper meal. A visit or call to a friend. Over time they started to add up and build rungs on the ladder that allowed me to climb out of the hole. Once the momentum builds, especially in regards to diet and exercise, it's really hard to fall back on the old depressive habits without seeing them for what they really are: utter destruction to self and personal growth.

[J Sway]

(08-12-2016 10:32 AM)Lizard King Wrote:  

[quote='RichieP' pid='1371508' dateline='1471010000']
I think what OP was trying to allude to, is that it's good to do some kind of housekeeping to your mind and thoughts.

Mental housekeeping is good, and things like mindfulness meditation and (a personal preference) reflections on stoic ideals definitely help, but there comes a point where mental housekeeping and thought exercises become mental masturbation. The rubber needs to meet the road at some point.

I agree with you, there is a fair amount of subjectivity in terms of what works and what doesn't. That said, as I mentioned above, some of the best and proven solutions one can find for these kinds of symptoms/situations, whether they are anecdotal or not, are those that rely on actionable steps.

This comes from someone who positively abhors the generally useless vacuum of anecdotal thinking.

[Phoenix]

No depression is not a chemical imbalance. That's as meaningless as saying hunger is a chemical imbalance. Sounds more insightful whilst actually being less so.

Hunger is a signal that you need to eat food, and depression is a signal that you need to change something fundamental in your life.

[J Sway]

(08-15-2016 04:24 AM)Phoenix Wrote:  

No depression is not a chemical imbalance. That's as meaningless as saying hunger is a chemical imbalance. Sounds more insightful whilst actually being less so.

Hunger is a signal that you need to eat food, and depression is a signal that you need to change something fundamental in your life.

The assumption of "chemical imbalance" has mostly been shunned by the biopsychologist community. The idea of using pharmacology to tweak individual elements of the brain, without really knowing for sure the effect those tweaks might have on other parts of the brain, is really dangerous. The things they know to be true in terms of what affects the so-called imbalance, are the things I mentioned before: diet, exercise, and social contact, and whether or not there are chemical substance abuse issues interfering. Those core things are the only major imbalances that need to be addressed, initially. Get those things right, and addressing the other, underlying issues become much easier.

It's akin to tweaking a single knob on an amplifier and expecting it to right all the wrong parts of the sound without wronging some of the right parts.

[HectorLavoe]

Any thoughts on Fluoride's role in depression? I always feel stuck and in a fog when I get back to fluoridated Toronto. The city and life in general here depresses me but there is something more to it going on.

[chicane]

Living at the bottom of Maslow's hierarchy, beating depression and anxiety can be tougher than you might think. Having no family, no hope of a family, no career and no hope of a career, living in isolation with no support from anyone makes it tough to recover. As someone said, it's sort of like trying to run a marathon with a broken leg. Given a chance to heal I could do a lot of good things, without healing, I'm totally fucked.

[RichieP]

(08-15-2016 04:24 AM)Phoenix Wrote:  

No depression is not a chemical imbalance. That's as meaningless as saying hunger is a chemical imbalance. Sounds more insightful whilst actually being less so.

Hunger is a signal that you need to eat food, and depression is a signal that you need to change something fundamental in your life.

Yes well said. It's a desciption, but it's not a useful one, and the implied solution ("add chemicals!") is not a valid inference.

Anyhoo, it's cool that this is being realized more and more by the people who actually *treat* depression.

[Lime]

(08-19-2016 11:23 AM)RichieP Wrote:  

(08-15-2016 04:24 AM)Phoenix Wrote:  

No depression is not a chemical imbalance. That's as meaningless as saying hunger is a chemical imbalance. Sounds more insightful whilst actually being less so.

Hunger is a signal that you need to eat food, and depression is a signal that you need to change something fundamental in your life.

Yes well said. It's a desciption, but it's not a useful one, and the implied solution ("add chemicals!") is not a valid inference.

Anyhoo, it's cool that this is being realized more and more by the people who actually *treat* depression.

Ah yes, the view of the human as it were a test tube. Everything reduced to chemicals.

interesting reading: Nozick and his 'experience machine'

Quote:

Nozick asks us to imagine a machine that could give us whatever desirable or pleasurable experiences we could want. Psychologists have figured out a way to stimulate a person's brain to induce pleasurable experiences that the subject could not distinguish from those he would have apart from the machine. He then asks, if given the choice, would we prefer the machine to real life?

Nozick also believes that if pleasure were the only intrinsic value, people would have an overriding reason to be hooked up to an "experience machine," which would produce favorable sensations.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Experience_machine