[el mavericko]

So I've been lifting pretty consistently for nearly three years now and while I've definitely made some progress both in size and strength, my results are definitely underwhelming considering the amount of work and time I've put in. My slow progress combined with the low T symptoms I've been experiencing for the last couple of years had me curious enough to get some labs done and sure enough - my T was low for my age.

When I was lifting moderately about a year ago, 2-3 times a week, my total T was in the 500-515 range. Libido was wasn't where I wanted it to be but manageable.

Six months ago while I was lifting with a little more volume averaging 3-4 times a week, I tested in the high 400's but with extremely low free T numbers. My libido had very noticeably dropped and I was hating it.

After 3 months of lifting 5-6 times a week + boxing for an hour 3-5 times a week, my total T tested in the mid 300's. I consistently felt like shit and my libido was nonexistent.

This was the point where I decided it was time to get with a TRT doc so I got in touch with Defy Medical and flew to BKK to get all the labs they requested done.

Now here is where I finally put it all together and made the connection between my T levels and the intensity/volume of my training - because I was traveling off the grid for a couple of weeks my gym time was extremely limited, just some light work in shoddy gyms once, maybe twice a week for nearly two weeks. After 8-9 days, I felt better, my libido came raging back, and my test nearly doubled up to 670. My body has gotten pretty noticeably softer not lifting for two weeks but I was loving life for about a week or so. Until I finally got to a real gym and got my typical leg work out in - 4x8 ATG squats, 4x10 leg extensions, 4x20 calf raises, 4x10 stiff leg DLs, and some side delt work - that was two days ago and already I'm back to feeling like shit.

What's the deal? Is this a sign from above that I should not ever lift again and accept being skinny and physically weak? Just hoping for a little bit of insight or an alternative before I say fuck it and hop on the TRT train.

For the record, I have a pretty solid understanding of diet and nutrition, I eat well, take a good multi, fish oil, good sleep, lifestyle, etc. are all good.

[Hannibal]

How old are you?

Is your sleep quality good (at least 8 hours)? Have you had women over that told you that you snore or quit breathing in your sleep? Sleep apnea fucks your quality of sleep, which nukes your testosterone.

What does your nutrition look like? Food quality and micronutrients matter, big time. There's a thread on this forum about magnesium supplementation for a reason.

Are you supplementing with fish oil? Modern farming practices robs you of your Omega 3 fatty acids because it's easier to feed them corn and other mass produced shit.

Are you getting enough sun (or vitamin D3)? Most people are deficient in vitamin D3. It's basically a steroid if you're deficient in it.

Are you eating enough calories? Are you getting enough vitamins and minerals? Testosterone plummets when you're in a caloric deficit.

If you're actually low for your age and you've done everything else right, jump on the TRT train. If not, get everything else fixed first.

[roberto]

I'd prescribe zinc and a lot more calories. Try that for two weeks and see how you feel.

[el mavericko]

(08-05-2016 02:22 AM)Hannibal Wrote:  

How old are you?

Is your sleep quality good (at least 8 hours)? Have you had women over that told you that you snore or quit breathing in your sleep? Sleep apnea fucks your quality of sleep, which nukes your testosterone.

What does your nutrition look like? Food quality and micronutrients matter, big time. There's a thread on this forum about magnesium supplementation for a reason.

Are you supplementing with fish oil? Modern farming practices robs you of your Omega 3 fatty acids because it's easier to feed them corn and other mass produced shit.

Are you getting enough sun (or vitamin D3)? Most people are deficient in vitamin D3. It's basically a steroid if you're deficient in it.

Are you eating enough calories? Are you getting enough vitamins and minerals? Testosterone plummets when you're in a caloric deficit.

If you're actually low for your age and you've done everything else right, jump on the TRT train. If not, get everything else fixed first.

25

I'm in bed for 8+ hours but I wake up often and it takes me a long time to fall back asleep. I don't snore.

My nutrition and diet is pretty damn good. Lots of protein, good fats, animal fats, carbs, and almost zero sugar and shitty oils.

I supplemented with D3 and Zinc for almost a year with no changes whatsoever. Now I just go with the amounts in my quality high potency multi and get plenty of sunlight.

I definitely don't shy away from eating tons of calories - I eat a ton of food for my weight, currently only 165-170 lbs. I have really light bone structure though so I carry it pretty well.

Thanks for the checklist, sounds like TRT is a no brainer at this point. Guess I'm just trying to be absolutely sure before I hop on because I'm so young - I plan on starting a large family 5+ years down the road and I don't want to run into any problems restarting my natural production when it's baby makin' time.

[Fortis]

Get your blood work done before you do any TRT or anything.

[thoughtgypsy]

It sounds like lifting more often doesn't work well for you. Overtraining raises cortisol, which can lower your T levels. Go back to lifting 2-3 times a week and see if you notice any improvement.

2-3x a week is about right for me. It gives my body the chance to fully recover.

How often do you drink alcohol, especially beer?

Are you eating lots of cruciferous vegetables?

[Vienna]

Do you get colds often?

I'd look into supplementing heavy doses of omega-3 (provided you don't have any blood clotting issues) for at least 100 days and see how you feel. Get at a minimum 3000mg of fish oil a day. Read labels carefully, most fish oils are blends of 30% omega-3 and 70% omega-6; you want a better ratio of 3 to 6, preferably 1:1.

Omega-3 is a potent anti-inflammatory compound that enhances your ability to recover from tough workouts, among many other benefits. As such, it's recommended to take in pill form with food to avoid gastrointestinal issues.

Edit: Here's a good resource on why modern people need more omega-3, especially if they're ambitious young men spending time in the gym.

[eatthishomie]

I thought I was the only one who experienced this. My libido tanks right after the gym and explodes out of control when I take a week off. Of course I'm still going to lift, because, duh... but I wonder why this happens or if anything can be done to stop it.

My diet is tight, I supplement zinc, mag, and d3 daily and get 10-12 minutes of sunlight on bare skin a day (arms and legs during the week, full body on weekends). Sleep is an issue though.

[thoughtgypsy]

This reminds me of an podcast I listened to recently:

"Why I abandoned Starting Strength"
http://roguehealthandfitness.com/rogue-h...h-program/

The guy in the podcast relates how he began the Starting Strength program, and forced himself to stick by the strict training regime despite feeling chronic fatigue, muscle soreness, and other psychological issues. He tried drinking a gallon of milk each day, upping his calories, but nothing seemed to work.

Only when he lowered the frequency of his workouts to a point where his body was comfortable did everything begin to improve again.

Listen to your body, don't overtrain. A workout schedule of 5x a week may work for some, but not everybody. Mike Mentzer, a former competition bodybuilder, believed that once you plateau in fitness, working out once every 7-9 days was optimal. I wouldn't say you need to go that far, but think about increasing the interval between workouts and see if it helps at all.

[Ringo]

I'm not an expert but I'll chime in because I used to have the same thing and after some tinkering now it's mostly gone.

Are you tracking calories? I also thought I had a "solid understanding of nutrition" - my diet has always been fantastic. However until I actually started tracking everything I finally realized I had been chronically undereating, which is not hard to do if you are eating very clean and moderately.

From your post it seems we have a similar ectomorphic build. For strength purposes I've tried 5x5 and 531 with accessories before, but honestly they didn't work well for me.

This year I decided to cut out most of the exercises. I lift 3x/week and do BJJ 3x/week. Only 3 sets of RPT weighted pullups/RPT press/20-rep light squats or 100 pushups/RPT heavy rows/20-rep light squats, with some curls and triceps extensions 1x/week. All my lifts went way up, bodyweight increased a bit and I feel and look better overall.

I was scared to cut out exercises because I love me a nice grueling session, but if it beats the purpose of improving yourself it's time to rethink things. Don't be afraid to cut out the volume, experiment with reps and sets and slowly add exercises back up to see where the tipping point is.

[Hell_Is_Like_Newark]

T level do drop during the day, especially after heavy physical activity. Your body recharges when you sleep. This is why when you get T level checked, the tests are done first thing in the morning (assuming you don't work night shifts). So as others pointed out, it may not be why they drop during the day, but how well your T levels recover whilst you sleep.

[eatthishomie]

My plan for my upcoming bulk is to do a 6 day high volume bro split for long enough to confuse the muscles (right babe?) and shock them into growth, this will be about 1.5 months, then a 4 day rotating upper/lower split for the remaining 1.5 months.

[not_dead_yet]

I'm in a similar situation. I'm in my early 40s and I felt my libido starting to droop in my late 30s. That said, it crashed when I started doing 5x5 and it took me a while to figure out the problem was overtraining/cortisol release. Not sleep, nutrition, fish oil, calories, etc.

I've switched to Greyskull LP now and I'm on TRT with D3 and it's been a big help. I still keep the cialis handy, but I'm twenty years older than you.

[Repo]

You say you eat carbs but almost no sugar. What carbs do you specifically eat and in what amount on a daily basis? Maybe even list out your entire typicle diet for forum members to review.

[RexImperator]

I thought that was a feature of lifting, not a bug.

[Balkan]

Hmm this doesn't add up. You weren't born on mars, your body shouldn't be responding this way. A few things that have already been mentioned above.

I'd focus in on your sleep, especially slow-wave sleep (when you release gh/test). These cycles are dominant early in the night, which means you need to try to get to bed early. Gio has a metric for "hours before midnight" sleep. Going to bed at 9 or 10 is a good target. No phone/computer/bright light use an hour before then. If you struggle falling asleep read some fiction. Consider taking a zma or melatonin.

Are you under any chronic stress? Do you have allergies? Look at your C-reactive protein count on your next blood test. This is your general inflammation marker.

List your exact daily carb intake and from what sources. Some people respond very poorly to even good carbs. Eating low-carb and even ketogenic can often remove seemingly unrelated symptoms. A great omega 3 source is Udo's 3-6-9 oil. Take 4 tablespoons in the morning and you're good to go.

Your workouts seems great. This is quite puzzling. What is your strength in correlation to when you lift more/low test and lift less/high test? Have you been making strength gains when you lift more frequently?

For the time being consider doing a deload week(s), which is still going to the gym atleast 3-4 times/week but significantly reducing the weight and adding some extra volume. This is more working out to maintain gains. I often do this when I'm traveling. Glutamine is your friend for post-workout soreness if you do keep the frequency up.

Edit: Some good supplements every guy should be aware of. I'm particualrly looking at the magnesium/zinc for you.
-chelated magnesium
-optizinc
-food-based multi (Garden of Life Vitamin code/Rainbow Light men's one)
-Vitamin D (2500+IU)
-Vitamin C powder for orthomolecular dosing when compromised
-Great lakes Collagen Hydrosylate
-Fish oil/udo's oil

[el mavericko]

Been off the forum for a couple of weeks but thanks a ton for the replies in this thread, a lot of good info has already been provided.

(08-05-2016 11:49 AM)eatthishomie Wrote:  

My plan for my upcoming bulk is to do a 6 day high volume bro split for long enough to confuse the muscles (right babe?) and shock them into growth, this will be about 1.5 months, then a 4 day rotating upper/lower split for the remaining 1.5 months.

The 6 day high volume bro split is exactly what I was doing when my libido and mood went completely down the shitter so I recommend finding something else if you also deal with similar side effects when lifting too frequently.

I've cut down my lifting and exercise volume by over 50% over the last month but can't deduce much because my lifestyle over that month has not been conducive to healthy living OR muscle growth. I'll report back after another month.

[Gas]

I also had this problem. T was in the mid 500's. Started a heavy lifting regime, sleeping early, totally revamped diet to meat, vegetables, fats, nuts, and supplements in an effort to bump it into the 600s or 700s. Got tested again and T had tanked to 290. Confused the fuck out of me. Didn't know what to do after that. Keep us updated on your results OP, interested to hear.

[britabroad]

Low test is a result of not eating enough - particularly fat (but i think undercarbing can cause problems) or having a too low BF% (ie under 8)

I would only recommend lifting 3 times a week as rest is important too. I'd only lift 6 times a week if it was my career and most that are in that position are doping.

[Mjölnir]

According to this:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4562558/

More volume shouldn't be affecting that much of your T, I recommend you finding the time and reading the whole study, as it shows other hormones variations and muscle mass and strenght, in two groups, intensity and volume..

What could cause you that, it's that you're training more often than you can recover. Bodybuilders workout 6 days a week usually 2 times a day because they have more testosterone on their blood, than all of us in this thread have combined. The more you workout, more free testosterone you use to repair your muscles, so logically, it would make sense that if you're overtraining you'll have lower free test levels, (i won't say biologically because that's not my field and I don't have studies to back that up).

In the end your body its unique, it will have similarities with other humans but, its your job to find out what works for YOU, i feel good working out and having ABCDE 40 min sessions a week, and this has given me better results than two push/pull ou a ABC split. But that's me, perhaps its better for YOU using ABC, Full bodyX2 or 3. You have to try it out and see what fits you best.

Like it was said before in this thread, COUNT your macros, it's a bit of a pain in the beginning but the math won't lie, sometimes you think you're eating well and enought and your short on carbs, or even calories.. The lower the carbs = lower your T. Combine overtraining which would require you a shitload of carbs (especially if you're a ectomorph and BOXES), and you eating not enough amout of carbs, would fuck you up.

It could be a coincidence but, once you take the foot of the gas, you're testosterone magically ups, because you're not requiring so much of your body to recover and grow.

I made this post longer than i wanted, but if all things are in check, and you experimented with all the variables, get on the TRT, but do it knowingly that it's a life's decision, once you're off, you'll have all your problems back and probably loose some muscle too :.

Anyways, best of luck.

[rottenapple]

I agree with some of the previous points. I think a lot of us are looking at diets which are paleo or low on carbs, which is great, but when you train real hard, after training, carbs are necessary I believe for recovery.

Do your high protein, high fat diet as a standard, but directly before and after training take in carbs. I recently bought a post workout mix which is very high on carbs (with BCAAs, creatine, etc.), high sugar content but it definitly helps me recover after crossfit.

Ps. anekdotal advice, not sure on the science of it all.

[Ezio31]

Overtraining? Take a few days off, and you'll see the test roaring back

[StrikeBack]

My T level improved a lot with lifting. I didn't know what it was before, but I had plenty of low-T symptoms. Now it's in the low 800s.

My libido shoots up just after a lifting session, as my fiancee can attest to on a regular basis...

I'd look into firstly your recovery:

- How much sleep you are getting
- What you are eating - food quality, P/C/F breakdown. You might be eating not enough fats and sugar. Good fats are super important for your testosterone production, and sugar is critical for your energy level.

Secondly, your training program might be the problem here. It looks a little excessive on high reps and volume, which may make you feel rather sore after every session. How do you typically feel post-workout? Some wise coach told me years ago to live the gym feeling like you can conquer the world, not like you need to crawl up in bed and crash. What this translates to is that you train hard but always leave some in the tank. I train myself or other people to improve on their 75~90% at training, not their 100%. After a workout, I feel fantastic, and want to do a whole lot of things that same night (or day, if in the morning) including getting home and bending my fiancee over the couch before she serves me dinner.

If I train to serious fatigue and failure, then I won't have any energy to do shit afterwards, and for certain my libido would drop like I just accidentally saw Leslie Jones' nude leaks.

[nomadbrah]

Hard cardio is more likely to tank you test than lifting imo.

[DaKi]

(08-05-2016 02:12 AM)el mavericko Wrote:  

So I've been lifting pretty consistently for nearly three years now and while I've definitely made some progress both in size and strength, my results are definitely underwhelming considering the amount of work and time I've put in. My slow progress combined with the low T symptoms I've been experiencing for the last couple of years had me curious enough to get some labs done and sure enough - my T was low for my age.

When I was lifting moderately about a year ago, 2-3 times a week, my total T was in the 500-515 range. Libido was wasn't where I wanted it to be but manageable.

Six months ago while I was lifting with a little more volume averaging 3-4 times a week, I tested in the high 400's but with extremely low free T numbers. My libido had very noticeably dropped and I was hating it.

After 3 months of lifting 5-6 times a week + boxing for an hour 3-5 times a week, my total T tested in the mid 300's. I consistently felt like shit and my libido was nonexistent.

This was the point where I decided it was time to get with a TRT doc so I got in touch with Defy Medical and flew to BKK to get all the labs they requested done.

Now here is where I finally put it all together and made the connection between my T levels and the intensity/volume of my training - because I was traveling off the grid for a couple of weeks my gym time was extremely limited, just some light work in shoddy gyms once, maybe twice a week for nearly two weeks. After 8-9 days, I felt better, my libido came raging back, and my test nearly doubled up to 670. My body has gotten pretty noticeably softer not lifting for two weeks but I was loving life for about a week or so. Until I finally got to a real gym and got my typical leg work out in - 4x8 ATG squats, 4x10 leg extensions, 4x20 calf raises, 4x10 stiff leg DLs, and some side delt work - that was two days ago and already I'm back to feeling like shit.

What's the deal? Is this a sign from above that I should not ever lift again and accept being skinny and physically weak? Just hoping for a little bit of insight or an alternative before I say fuck it and hop on the TRT train.

For the record, I have a pretty solid understanding of diet and nutrition, I eat well, take a good multi, fish oil, good sleep, lifestyle, etc. are all good.

Sounds like "gross overtraining".

If you wish to try a HIT-inspired program, you could--as a template--try something like:

1) Take two weeks off--no exercise.

2) Eliminate the boxing, or cut back to 20 mins, 3x per week maximum-on weight training days, preferably before weight training.

3) Lift two or three days per week, with one set to failure per exercise, with 1-3 exercises per bodypart (depending partly on how one defines "bodypart").

A three day schedule I've used in the past was something like--

Monday: Chest, Shoulders, Triceps
1) Incline Bench Press
2) Side Laterals
3) Flat Flies
4) Triceps Pressdowns

Weds: Upper Back and Biceps
1) Curl-Grip Pulldowns
2) Dumbbell Shrugs
3) Rows
4) Alternating Dumbbell Curls

Friday: Legs, Lower Back and Abs
1) Squats
2) Hyperextensions
3) Lying Leg Curls
4) Standing Calf Raises
5) Hanging Leg Raises

Obviously, this is only a template--one can easily substitute or alternate exercises (pullovers for curl-grip pulldowns, stiff-legged deadlifts for leg curls, leg presses for squats, etc.)--the important thing with HIT-style programs is to train very intensely and progressively on few sets on few days and to allow full recovery before training a muscle group again (both subjective signs and workout logs will help with this).

Baye.com is one great resource for training tips.