[Atom89]

So I've been using the 5*5 workout and I can see gains as well as improved strength.

However, I see sportsman using olympic lifting methods such as cleans, squats, snatch, clean and jerk and they look amazing!

So I'm thinking of changing my routine to Olympic routine which my routine consists of:

1) Snatch
2) Clean and Jerk
3) Push Press
4) Back Squats

I'm not sure how I will build my chest doing this, however, if these sportsman have a great physique doing these exercises, I'm sure I can.

The body I would like to have is Australian cricket Mitchell Jhonson, he has a great physique and stated in a video that his training consists of olympic lifting such as cleans, squats, lots of cardio, core stability, lower body work.

[kinjutsu]

2 things.
1st is use the search function. We have a weight lifting/fitness forum dedicated to questions like this. Your question has probably been answered over there:
Weightlifting & Fitness

2nd If you want to grow your body for aesthetic reasons ie "bigger chest" Olympic lifts are not the way to go, they focus on strength. You'll need a program that focuses on hypertrophy.
Eventually you'll get both strength and hypertrophy in whatever program you choose, however if you go with strength training the size gains will come slower and vice versa.

[H1N1]

There's a video at the end of the lifters lounge now showing a phenomenally strong and explosive Olympic lifter with a fairly unremarkable physique (relative to the time and expertise he has under the bar). Guys like Klokov are actually fairly anomalous. Most Olympic lifters have quite unimpressive physiques considering their strength, skill, and coordination.

[lex the impaler]

There's way too much risk and very little reward in Olympic lifting. I think it's better to do a simple 5*5 program, while working on your mobility.

[Saweeep]

If your goal is to look good and not to be a sportsman, just stick to a bodybuilding routine.

It's been said a million times on the forum. 5x5/OLY lifting will just make you blocky and bottom heavy.

[Truth Teller]

The vast majority of weightlifters have rather ordinary physiques. Ilya Ilyin is the world champion in the 105 kg class (pending his suspension), but he's not particularly well defined. The majority of jacked WLers happen to have bodybuilding work built into their programs. For example, the Chinese and the North Koreans focus on bodybuilding work at the end of each session. The lifts proper don't do that.

I love weightlifting (what you guys call Olympic lifting), but I don't recommend it for someone who wants to be aesthetically pleasing. The lifts have almost no eccentric, largely because they're usually dropped from the overhead position. The eccentric is what builds muscle, or so I've been told.

[kinjutsu]

(08-04-2016 12:25 AM)Truth Teller Wrote:  

The vast majority of weightlifters have rather ordinary physiques. Ilya Ilyin is the world champion in the 105 kg class (pending his suspension), but he's not particularly well defined. The majority of jacked WLers happen to have bodybuilding work built into their programs. For example, the Chinese and the North Koreans focus on bodybuilding work at the end of each session. The lifts proper don't do that.

I love weightlifting (what you guys call Olympic lifting), but I don't recommend it for someone who wants to be aesthetically pleasing. The lifts have almost no eccentric, largely because they're usually dropped from the overhead position. The eccentric is what builds muscle, or so I've been told.

"time under tension" is what builds muscle.
So yes the eccentric part of the movement is what builds muscle because it is under load or tension. But the concentric portion of the movement also helps build muscle because the muscle is also under load at this time.
At the top or the movement when the joint is locked out is when you aren't under tension.

For example, When you first unrack the bar for the bench press and you've locked your elbows. Nothing is under tension.
Once you start to lower the bar to your chest the eccentric movement of your pecs is under load/tension.
At the bottom of the bench press, when the bar is at your chest it "shouldn't be resting on your chest" the lengthening of your pecs is at the maximum point.
Then you start to push the bar up away from your chest. The is the shortening of the pec muscle or concentric portion of the movement. This also counts as being under load or tension.

Keep in mind that with compound movements is it possible to be doing both concentric and eccentric movements with different muscle groups inside a rep.
i.e a pushup where your pecs are eccentric and the triceps are concentric when lowering yourself to the ground.


If you see a guy in the gym using light weights and moving them slowly, there's a good chance he's using "time under tension" training.
I've found it to be great on lifts where the next weight up is a bit too heavy but the current weight isn't challenging enough for me.
I use a 4 second up and 4 second down.

[Atom89]

Thanks for all the replies.

So definitely a no go for Olympic lifting, with the workout I put on my OP. 5*5 makes me blocky and bottom heavy.

Should I just focus on doing press up's, squats, pull up's, deadlifts? OR Just squats, bench presses and deadlifts?

This is the physique I'm aiming for: https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=mitche...VAUJ6nM%3A

Which is the guy on the left, the lean one smiling (Mitchell Jhonson). As stated on my OP he focuses on olympic lifting(which he said in a video) such as cleans, squats, lots of cardio, lower body work and lots of core work.

[RexImperator]

A lot just depends on diet. After three years of compound lifting, I get asked if I'm a football (American) player...but I'm kind of fat, honestly.

After getting intermediate strength level you should just switch to Crossfit. Those workouts and good diet will get the abs showing.

Blockiness comes from a lot of squatting...gives you a big butt and thicker torso.

[Saweeep]

Crossfit is notorious for the blocky torso.

It's very hard to get a strong V taper with a blocky torso and it's this shape that gives a man his proportions.

[Kid Twist]

(08-04-2016 02:02 AM)kinjutsu Wrote:  

(08-04-2016 12:25 AM)Truth Teller Wrote:  

The vast majority of weightlifters have rather ordinary physiques. Ilya Ilyin is the world champion in the 105 kg class (pending his suspension), but he's not particularly well defined. The majority of jacked WLers happen to have bodybuilding work built into their programs. For example, the Chinese and the North Koreans focus on bodybuilding work at the end of each session. The lifts proper don't do that.

I love weightlifting (what you guys call Olympic lifting), but I don't recommend it for someone who wants to be aesthetically pleasing. The lifts have almost no eccentric, largely because they're usually dropped from the overhead position. The eccentric is what builds muscle, or so I've been told.

"time under tension" is what builds muscle.
So yes the eccentric part of the movement is what builds muscle because it is under load or tension. But the concentric portion of the movement also helps build muscle because the muscle is also under load at this time.
At the top or the movement when the joint is locked out is when you aren't under tension.

For example, When you first unrack the bar for the bench press and you've locked your elbows. Nothing is under tension.
Once you start to lower the bar to your chest the eccentric movement of your pecs is under load/tension.
At the bottom of the bench press, when the bar is at your chest it "shouldn't be resting on your chest" the lengthening of your pecs is at the maximum point.
Then you start to push the bar up away from your chest. The is the shortening of the pec muscle or concentric portion of the movement. This also counts as being under load or tension.

Keep in mind that with compound movements is it possible to be doing both concentric and eccentric movements with different muscle groups inside a rep.
i.e a pushup where your pecs are eccentric and the triceps are concentric when lowering yourself to the ground.


If you see a guy in the gym using light weights and moving them slowly, there's a good chance he's using "time under tension" training.
I've found it to be great on lifts where the next weight up is a bit too heavy but the current weight isn't challenging enough for me.
I use a 4 second up and 4 second down.

Great post.

As a physician and trainer, I can say that your advice is good and your knowledge very complete.

[RexImperator]

(08-04-2016 10:01 AM)CrashBangWallop Wrote:  

Crossfit is notorious for the blocky torso.

It's very hard to get a strong V taper with a blocky torso and it's this shape that gives a man his proportions.

I don't know...the casual Crossfitters I've seen don't get too big or blocky. I think it's going to depend on the programming of the particular "box" coach.

I've gotta say, I think it's kind of weird that people would try to have a weaker core on purpose in order to look big in a picture. But...if you make money from your looks (actor, model) or regularly get Tinder girls with your abs I guess it does make sense.

If someone wants to look like a soccer player they should just train like a soccer player. Build up a moderate amount of muscle and then run a lot. All the running will prevent you from getting too big, either with muscle or fat. It's extremely difficult to be athletically good at everything (strength/endurance/conditioning) without PEDs, so it won't happen by accident.

If you don't like doing cardio, I'd recommend the rippedbody.co.jp website.

[Saweeep]

Nobody's saying that not having a blocky core is equal to a weak core.

You could make that argument about any muscle group.

Come on, man.

[RexImperator]

Aren't we ultimately talking about training those muscles less often?

I guess you mean hypertrophy vs. strength.

[hydrogonian]

My take is:

Strength: any variation of a powerlifting routine. You'll probably want to try different beginner variations to see what you will like. After you lift for a while, no advice anyone can give you here will have much meaning assuming that you can use the internet. Your self-knowldege will rule in terms of directing you to the next appropriate routine. The common progression is Starting Strength or something like Greyskull LP, to 5x5, to take your pick (5/3/1. Reactive Training Systems, etc). Make sure that it is not tailored to steroid users.

Exceptionally Large muscles: Steroids

Physique/Strength without steroids: Reverse Pyramid training / Leangains (my choice, anyway).

A good alternative to get the physique, more or less, that you are after through Olympic lifting: Rock Climbing. Really, gymnastics is the best but that's not an option for most of us.

[Truth Teller]

(08-04-2016 10:01 AM)CrashBangWallop Wrote:  

Crossfit is notorious for the blocky torso.

It's very hard to get a strong V taper with a blocky torso and it's this shape that gives a man his proportions.

To be fair, that's not only because of Crossfit's programming. PED use is rampant in Crossfit.

Half the women look like they're abusing Anavar.

[Germanicus]

(08-04-2016 10:37 AM)RexImperator Wrote:  

(08-04-2016 10:01 AM)CrashBangWallop Wrote:  

Crossfit is notorious for the blocky torso.

It's very hard to get a strong V taper with a blocky torso and it's this shape that gives a man his proportions.

I don't know...the casual Crossfitters I've seen don't get too big or blocky. I think it's going to depend on the programming of the particular "box" coach.

Most of the casual crossfitters I see are skinnyfat (dudes) or chubby and shaped like a Minion (chicks). That's because crossfit is a really shitty training program that doesn't work at all for the unathletic and is only of marginal use for people already in shape. The coaches? You mean the ignorant dipshits who have bought a teaching certification for the cost of $1000 and attending a weekend seminar?

The ripped and huge crossfitters you see on the internet or on those silly crossfit events on ESPN don't actually do crossfit-- they're doing some powerlifting/bodybuilding hybrid programs with a fair bit of anaerobic conditioning endurance work. I've banged a few chicks who were serious about crossfit and the only time they or their other serious friends from the same box were doing WODs is when they hit up the weekly weekend morning crossfit games regional qualification WODs. They'd do the WOD but it was mostly a chance to socialize. I went to watch some of these and would ask people in passing conversation what their training was like. Some would say directly they did little to no crossfit at all and others wouldn't admit it, but definitely implied the same thing in their answer. Off topic but worth mentioning; I recommend a short LTR or FWB set-up with any kind of fitness chick-- I've yet to meet a one that wasn't a huge fan of absolutely dirty kinky sex.

Quote:

It's extremely difficult to be athletically good at everything (strength/endurance/conditioning) without PEDs, so it won't happen by accident.

Agreed. That also explains why plenty of "crossfitters" have that Hollywood physique. They're juicing.

(08-04-2016 04:56 PM)Truth Teller Wrote:  

(08-04-2016 10:01 AM)CrashBangWallop Wrote:  

Crossfit is notorious for the blocky torso.

It's very hard to get a strong V taper with a blocky torso and it's this shape that gives a man his proportions.

To be fair, that's not only because of Crossfit's programming. PED use is rampant in Crossfit.

Half the women look like they're abusing Anavar.

Most of the girls dedicated to seriously competing in whichever fitness event-- crossfit, figure or fitness competitions, etc-- are for sure taking Anavar. Some even good ol' Test E. The crossfit girls I had been with didn't enhance when I was with them, but they would always complain about not qualifying for the games or not being able to keep up with the girls who were qualifying and had traps, lats, and quads that were much bigger than mine when I was 16. My girls refused to believe me when I told them the qualifying clit-dick brigade were on steroids.

I'm kinda on a rant here, I know. But the bottom line is I can't stress enough how much crossfit is a shit program mostly run by people who are unqualified to teach strength and conditioning so don't waste your time when there are far better programs for strength and physique.

[Truth Teller]

(08-04-2016 06:43 PM)Germanicus Wrote:  

Most of the girls dedicated to seriously competing in whichever fitness event-- crossfit, figure or fitness competitions, etc-- are for sure taking Anavar. Some even good ol' Test E. The crossfit girls I had been with didn't enhance when I was with them, but they would always complain about not qualifying for the games or not being able to keep up with the girls who were qualifying and had traps, lats, and quads that were much bigger than mine when I was 16. My girls refused to believe me when I told them the qualifying clit-dick brigade were on steroids.

I'm kinda on a rant here, I know. But the bottom line is I can't stress enough how much crossfit is a shit program mostly run by people who are unqualified to teach strength and conditioning so don't waste your time when there are far better programs for strength and physique.

CrossFit is another fitness fad that is (even now) beginning to taper away. The so-called "boxes" (I hate that term, by the way) are beginning to close.

One of my issues with Crossfit is that it is completely inept when it comes to teaching Olympic lifting. The overhead squat that they place so much emphasis on is rarely used by actual WLers. Also, the receiving position they teach for the snatch makes a dislocation far more likely than an internally rotated shoulder.

[kinjutsu]

I got dragged to a crossfit class a few years ago when it was super popular...
The entire time i was thinking that these people are gonna hurt themselves. Or hurt someone standing near them.
Poor form, too heavy weights and focus on speed instead of proper range of motion is a mixture waiting for disaster.
A quick search for "crossfit fails" on youtube will be enough to scare you away.

[Germanicus]

(08-05-2016 12:36 AM)Truth Teller Wrote:  

CrossFit is another fitness fad that is (even now) beginning to taper away. The so-called "boxes" (I hate that term, by the way) are beginning to close.

It is a stupid fad. When 90%+ of people doing something are snobby urban white people and chicks who are social media attention whores you know it's garbage. The box fees (and I hate the pretentious jargon too) run between $250 - $400 a month. Gym memberships in my neck of the woods usually run between $50 - $100 a month. Paying all that extra money for piss poor instruction, social time, and status jockying. I'm glad cross shit is failing and closing up shop one-by-one.

Quote:

One of my issues with Crossfit is that it is completely inept when it comes to teaching Olympic lifting. The overhead squat that they place so much emphasis on is rarely used by actual WLers. Also, the receiving position they teach for the snatch makes a dislocation far more likely than an internally rotated shoulder.

Agreed. Most of the "coaches" wouldn't know their ass from a hole in the ground. Very few have any formal training in kinesiology or the like. They have their weekend certification courses and that's mostly it. Most of the instructors are bro scientists in it for access to gullible wannabe fitness chicks or cunty women trying to be an alpha male with a vagina. Kinda like receiving instruction about a sport from someone who's a gold medal athlete-- at the special olympics.

(08-05-2016 02:49 AM)kinjutsu Wrote:  

I got dragged to a crossfit class a few years ago when it was super popular...
The entire time i was thinking that these people are gonna hurt themselves. Or hurt someone standing near them.
Poor form, too heavy weights and focus on speed instead of proper range of motion is a mixture waiting for disaster.
A quick search for "crossfit fails" on youtube will be enough to scare you away.

Yup. Bad form, a completely idiotic obsession with adding extra unnecessary stress and difficulty, and focus on anything but the fundamentals are the hallmarks of the system. Always makes me laugh to hear the instructors and student talk about themselves and their "elite" training. Like midgets bragging about how tall they are and how everyone else is so short. You only have to see a little bit of footage of the crossfit games on ESPN to see for yourself how shitty the final product is.

I like Elgintensity's youtube channel. He's merciless in his attacks on crossfit. And overall, I think watching his gym idiot's vids are good for drawing attention to how much bullshit there is in the fitness industry and to how a fitness enthusiast should focus on proper form over ego lifting.

[Truth Teller]

^^I have been laughing my ass off at those videos most of the last 3 hours.

[TheFinalEpic]

I'll comment because I have practiced all three disciplines of lifting, all at the same time actually. I will attack each separately, speak about what I used to do, and what I currently do for training. I used to train 10-12 times per week (twice per day) and was the strongest I've ever been, deadlifting in excess of 450 lbs, squatting just shy of 400, all at the body weight of 202 lbs, at the age of 20, doing cardio as well, and with no performance enhancers. My body is weird, the more I train, the stronger, bigger, and more athletic I got.

Then I broke my back in a snowboarding accident, was paralyzed, and relearnt how to walk, losing essentially everything. I was 150 lbs the day I stepped out of the hospital.

Weightlifting (Olympic) will get you strong, and you will build the best posterior chain of all the disciplines. You will squat between 3 and 5 times a week, and will train in the rep range of 1-5 maximum. You will get strong in the deadlift as well, as it is vital to all olympic movements. I love the movements, I just can't perform them anymore as my balance isn't where it needs to be. It is great fun, and is moreso about technique than anything else. Weight feels effortless when your technique is spot on. I cam close to reaching this point, as I had been doing it for 6 months.

Powerlifting is stupid. But holy fuck is there no better feeling than the head rush you get after pulling close to 2.25x your bodyweight. You will get strong, but your body will be taxed (alike to olympic lifting, the joints do not like the snapping of the movements). You will need to wear belts, wraps and other equipment if you take it seriously. There's not really any way around it. It is extremely unsustainable, but fun nonetheless.

Lastly, bodybuilding. I never thought it would be the route I would go, but after my injury, controlling the weight is crucial. I built myself back up through the methodical approaches of full muscle contraction. I love it now, its not only physical, it is a mental game. You leave the gym mentally tired as well as physically taxed because you are continually focusing on the muscle and contraction. Weight doesn't matter. I highly recommend bodybuilding as the approach to build muscle, look your best, and create a body with excellent proportions and posture. Most bodybuilders have great flexibility too because they focus on stretching and rolling the muscle. You can bodybuild into your 80s. You can power lift or olympic lift until your early 30s.

I've done it all, except for crossfit, fuck that shit.

[nomadbrah]

Don't do Oly without instruction, those lifts can kill you.

I think ultimately any kind of strength routine (not SS, because too much squatting), will work well for the first year or so, then you should have some idea about your body, strong points, weak points and make your own routine. This also includes other things such as need for cardio or not (endo or ecto etc) and if you need some kind of sport challenge or not.

I've found ego to be the one single most destructive influence. For example, continuing to deadlift heavy because you don't have a good v-taper, so you do lifts which make you feel good i.e. "at least I am strong".

Some variety is great, if you learn the lifts correctly Oly is a ton of fun, and really works the entire body. Oly weightlifter physiques are also much better than powerlifters.

[JohnKreese]

(08-06-2016 02:10 AM)nomadbrah Wrote:  

Some variety is great

This point should be the lynchpin on any conversation on this topic. As much as people get down on certain routines, exercises, approaches, etc. (here it seems as though people see no good from Crossfit), a diverse approach is what I have found after ~20 years of lifting to be the most productive.

Yes, Oly lifts can be dangerous and difficult without proper coaching. Powerlifts can be hard on the body and can require assistive devices/equipment (although I train these exclusively at least one day a week and haven't put on a belt in years). Crossfit can be...annoying (the people and the workouts), but finding a balance that works for YOUR body is ultimately what is most important.

Unless you're working a job that requires a good amount of physical exertion, you have no excuse for not getting in the gym 5 or more times a week. Screw that 3 days a week to let you body "rest" mess. We don't move or work like our ancestors. As such, you have plenty of sessions to work different aspects into your routines.

Personally, I have few days of bodybuilding, a few days of Crossfit, a day of powerlifts, and a day of Oly lifts in a given week (obviously, there can be some overlap). I know all of the lifts, but more importantly I know my body so none of that nonsense you see with Crossfit workouts emphasizing weight and speed over form applies. If I see a routine with higher weight than I know I can handle, I lower the weight; simple as that (also, if you learn to do the movements yourself, there is little reason to pay for a "box" other than that they may have a more diverse selection of equipment). As such, I am able to incorporate a number of different fitness aspects and approaches over a week's gym work. Am I as good at any particular approach as someone who exclusively works that approach? Of course not, but I'd rather be well-rounded AND look good (although diet and limited drinking will have the most affect on this than any routine) than be a top competitor in a single discipline.

A bit of a rant but tldr: 1. don't write anything/any program off 2. know what your body responds to and its limitations 3. learn to do a variety of lifts/exercises 4. work out a lot more days than you don't

[RexImperator]

I think this Rippetoe article is a pretty good examination of the pros and cons of Crossfit:

Quote:

For most people, exercise is perfectly adequate — it’s certainly better than sitting on your ass. For people who perceive themselves as merely housewives, salesmen, or corporate execs, and for most personal training clients and pretty much everybody who can afford a CrossFit membership, exercise is fine. CrossFit sells itself by advertising the random part: random is not boring, and not-boring gets people to come back. Coming back while doing the diet at the same time gets you abs. CrossFit is largely about abs.

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/4420922