[Mike5055]

One thing that I noticed was you get a certain amount for every child you have. Similar to the situation we already have here in the U.S., it incentivizes the wrong behavior. We have a lot of lowlife scum who are unfit to be parents cranking out children en masse to get extra welfare already. If it was earmarked and limited to specific items needed to raise a child, it'd be better. But just giving these type of people extra money won't solve anything.

[Mr. Accuride]

(06-06-2016 10:10 PM)Phoenix Wrote:  

Yeah because that already worked great in the USSR.

I'm out. Out before someone repeats the luddite fallacy or supports socialism. These threads just depress me. They always say the same thing: it's 2016 and nobody has learnt anything.

(06-06-2016 11:17 PM)El Chinito loco Wrote:  

First of all where exactly is this magic money coming from? Taxes.

As in my example with Norwegian oil, there is no rule saying that the government can't run a profitable enterprise and issue a dividend to its citizens from that profit.

Even the US has a few examples of profitable government run enterprises, like the patent office and the post office. At least the post office would be profitable if Congress didn't strip its money for other spending and then demand that it fund pensions for decades in advance.

[Paracelsus]

(06-06-2016 11:38 PM)Mr. Accuride Wrote:  

(06-06-2016 10:10 PM)Phoenix Wrote:  

Yeah because that already worked great in the USSR.

I'm out. Out before someone repeats the luddite fallacy or supports socialism. These threads just depress me. They always say the same thing: it's 2016 and nobody has learnt anything.

(06-06-2016 11:17 PM)El Chinito loco Wrote:  

First of all where exactly is this magic money coming from? Taxes.

As in my example with Norwegian oil, there is no rule saying that the government can't run a profitable enterprise and issue a dividend to its citizens from that profit.

A dividend is, by definition, variable. Dividends increase or decrease according to the fortunes of the company that issues them, and a company can decide whether or not it will issue one in any given year. I can promise you that once a Universal Slavery Handout is mandated, the amount and the fact of its payment will never decrease one iota, not even if the country offering it is facing bankruptcy. Of such idiocy is hyperinflation, depression, and misery made.

And I can promise you something else: once a Universal Slavery Handout is mandated, you will not decrease the numbers of the poor by one. A Universal Slavery Handout presumes most people live within their means. By nature the vast majority of people are not content with what they have and do not live within their means, or else there would never have been such a thing as a subprime mortgage.

One might note that Norway with its oil fund is smart enough to not even have a minimum wage, which is the closest analogue you'll get to a Universal Slavery Handout in the present day. Neither, for that matter, does Switzerland.

You cannot make money from nothing. Not forever. Not without consequence, sooner or later. Issuing $60,000 to every man and woman of working age in a country, without accessing a source of real productivity, real assets, is a recipe for the wholesale devaluation of that currency and skyrocketing inflation. And there is no country on the planet which contains that source of real productivity such that it can afford to pay every member of its population $60,000 per year. Saying "but welfare payments will evaporate" is a load of shit: a Universal Slavery Handout actually increases welfare -- from being paid to a portion of the population to all of the population.

If anything, a Universal Slavery Handout acknowledges the fact that the currency it rests upon is practically worthless. If your dollar has such little value that you can happily issue sixty thousand of them to each and every person within your borders per year, you've basically proven it's only good for wiping your ass with it.

[N°6]

If this law was passed, migrant invaders would have stormed Switzerland's Alpine walls with as much vigor and intent as the bankrupt and desperate armies of Agamemnon attacked Troy's for Trojan gold.

Still Switzerland would only fall if someone from within opened the gates.

[Travesty]

^^ There are going to be vats in the future that grow meat from scratch.

Ground beef will not be $4 a lb. Maybe $0.40.

I don't understand how people can clearly see the concept of owning a handheld computer with speed and power that 20 years ago no one could possibly afford.

Now they claim it is impossible to
extrapalate this to costs of other everyday items.

It is just so obvious it cannot be spelled out anymore.

To give the poor free food, shelter, clothing, internet, water will become so cheap that one charitable billionaire would be able to get them all into livable conditions without them having to work to make it possible

Cars used to be scarce.

Flights used to be scarce.

High speed internet was scarce.

Digital cameras was scarce.

Data plans and minutes on phones werw scarce.

Shrimp used to be scarce!

Access to every media available was scarce. Now any fuckin scrub with Netflix and Spotify on welfare is set.

[Paracelsus]

(06-07-2016 12:38 AM)Travesty Wrote:  

I don't understand how people can clearly see the concept of owning a handheld computer with speed and power that 20 years ago no one could possibly afford.

Now they claim it is impossible to
extrapalate this to costs of other everyday items.

It's impossible because not every commodity item on the planet obeys Moore's Law. Is your cow producing twice as much milk as it did two years ago?

And growing your meat in vats? For real? Look at the fucking hormones they already pump into our food and water to supply the fatasses waddling up and down your local supermarket aisle. Try looking up a TV show called What's the Catch? to see the sort of shit they put into supposedly "healthy" seafood to keep up with demand. Shrimp, in particular: did you eat a prawn from Thailand recently? If so, I hope you enjoyed the blue sunblock they dump in the water in order to keep the animals from burning, not to mention the protein-heavy sludge they feed the fucking things so you can harvest them four times per year instead of once as they occur in the wild.

And let's leave aside the converse to Moore's Law, which Wikipedia mentions: although the cost of computing power to consumers has come down, the cost to producers to increase that computing power continues to rise.

[N°6]

Once again, the so-called liberal left is skirting round the issue.

The main cause of the increasing gap between rich and poor is compound usury and that the ancient struggle between productive labour and the parasite is rigged to favour the usurer.

there is no point handing out money to poor people which does not exist and will never exist but that future taxpayers would have to repay with its labour to global banks who invented the credit by typing it into an accounting book.

A ban on usury as per orthodox Christian teaching would empower labour and intellectual forces overnight.

[Paracelsus]

(06-07-2016 12:46 AM)N°6 Wrote:  

A ban on usury as per orthodox Christian teaching would empower labour and intellectual forces overnight.

Meh, they had that in the Middle Ages too. Most Christians got around that by consulting a certain ethnic group for all their financial needs.

[Travesty]

In the next 20-30 years super cheap
abundant energy combine with the ability to genetically make food from scratch will make handing out filet mignon like handing out cans of beans.

[Paracelsus]

^^^^

What's the old joke about fusion energy? "It's about 20-30 years ahead, and always will be."

[philosophical_recovery]

[Travesty]

I love someone skeptical about possible technology advancement does it on an internet forum communicating with someone literally
on the otherside of the planet.

[Travesty]

I am just the messenger people.

You're the ones gonna be on here in the Lifestyle forum posting your
meat growing DNA code recipes saying no way we'll ever get to game bitches on the moon.

Enjoy that BBQ sauce.

[Paracelsus]

Whatever, man, I'm going to go join Phoenix in the bar. I might not agree with him about the subject of God, but I'm no more a believer in the socialist utopia than he is.

(And remember, people: the reason Thomas More used the word utopia was because of its Greek origin: it literally means no place.)

[Glaucon]

$2600 is nothing in Switzerland. A 1500$ one room flat is considered cheap. Everything is just laughingly expensive.

They voted no for basic poverty actually.

[philosophical_recovery]

The greeks had extensive knowledge of physics, more than is commonly known.

They taught the Romans some, but the technology was scattered and lost. When we only recently re-discovered the antikythera mechanism, it was mind blowing to see the skill that they had.



Technology progress will happen. As it is, now, there is a lot of automated farming. Food, cars, television, internet, you name it, it's here and it's cheaper than ever.

But just like that it could be gone.

A mass of technology, with enough social pressure to not work to survive, and everyone will end up like Eloi. Look at what happens when you hand certain communities freebies for decades, like EBT. It wrecks their family.

UBI will just seal the deal for the rest of us by destroying the struggle to survive.

This experiment has already been run, and nobody cares to address what it has done.

They just keep pushing for more of the same.

[It_is_my_time]

Seems to be a trap. Get more dependent on the government, especially the weakest of society, and then cut them off and let them starve. The elites have said the earth is over populated, repeatedly. They have underground bunkers where they can wait it out for decades. Let the people fight it out and let these people who are no longer of use to them starve out.

[ovloV]

(06-07-2016 12:45 AM)Paracelsus Wrote:  

(06-07-2016 12:38 AM)Travesty Wrote:  

I don't understand how people can clearly see the concept of owning a handheld computer with speed and power that 20 years ago no one could possibly afford.

Now they claim it is impossible to
extrapalate this to costs of other everyday items.

It's impossible because not every commodity item on the planet obeys Moore's Law. Is your cow producing twice as much milk as it did two years ago?

And growing your meat in vats? For real? Look at the fucking hormones they already pump into our food and water to supply the fatasses waddling up and down your local supermarket aisle. Try looking up a TV show called What's the Catch? to see the sort of shit they put into supposedly "healthy" seafood to keep up with demand. Shrimp, in particular: did you eat a prawn from Thailand recently? If so, I hope you enjoyed the blue sunblock they dump in the water in order to keep the animals from burning, not to mention the protein-heavy sludge they feed the fucking things so you can harvest them four times per year instead of once as they occur in the wild.

And let's leave aside the converse to Moore's Law, which Wikipedia mentions: although the cost of computing power to consumers has come down, the cost to producers to increase that computing power continues to rise.

No, the cow produces the same amount of milk as before. What changes is the cost of getting the milk from the cow to the consumer. The milk is extracted from the cows, processed, bottled, kept refrigerated, packed into trucks, transported to stores, kept refrigerated, then sold. Once labor costs are removed my automation, the price will go down. If technological advancements give us abundant energy, the costs of transporting and storing the milk will go down. Both of these will result in lower prices for the consumer. A lot of what you pay at the counter comes from labor costs and energy costs. Almost everything comes back to labor and energy. Automation removes one factor.

And we're already approaching the limit to Moore's Law, but quantum computing opens up a ton of new doors.

[demolition]

At some point in the future I can envision a world where a human's labor has no value. For certain jobs that's closer than others. Warehouse stockers, cashiers, waiters, all of these are jobs that can be done by machines now and the cost of those machines is less than the cost it would take to pay for the human. At some point I think we morally will need to start thinking about whether societies like the Amish have the right idea in only adopting certain technological advances.

But we're a long, long way from a world where all jobs can be automated in that fashion. I don't mean just skilled jobs either. There are lots of jobs in construction that we aren't close to automating, despite heavy use of machinery in that field. In 50 years it will probably be worth thinking about this, but for the world we live in right now, the issue isn't jobs that are disappearing due to automation, it's jobs disappearing due to government manipulation and predatory trade practices.

[poutsara]

(06-06-2016 11:17 PM)El Chinito loco Wrote:  

First of all where exactly is this magic money coming from? Taxes.

Quote:

Second obvious way to finance UBI.. money printing and digging a deeper government debt hole.

Quote:

You know banks will have a field day with this. There's unimaginable exploits just waiting to be discovered.

Quote:

It's essentially an unlimited government subsidy for every large corporation[/b] financed by the people and distributed through the state.

Exactly. Create money out of nothing and sell it on interest. Sounds legit.

[godfather dust]

If this comes to US and I'm below the threshold I'm getting fired and using my time to figure out how to get a good income going (most likely trying to pick up a skill that won't quickly be replaced by robots.)

I'm probably way above what threshold would be, but I don't know why anyone below would bother showing up to work. Pay more or I'm out would be said at every minimum wage job.

I'm for this eventually once robots take over, right now I'm not however.

[godfather dust]

I see a potential for this to be used to force the microchip implants infowars speaks on. Want cash? Mark of the beast bitch.

[yeppels]

I imagine more of a partnership with high tech. Imagine, Facebook sponsored basic income. You get your $60,000 a year (half from government half from FB), on the condition that you willingly install a microchip into your brain so that FB can easily track your wheareabouts, the things you do on a daily basis, show you ads more easily, keep you entrenched in the FB network.

Now, after you're used to this, the government adds, if you do illegal drug or participate in 'intolerable' ideologies or whatever, which they can track very easily, your basic income will be taken away.

A microchip is really too obvious a means of control, but something more simple like mandatory to have a FB account with a free smartphone given to you with no option to uninstall FB. Possibilities are endless. Your smartphone is pretty much a microchip into your life, imagine what someone with malicious intent could do if they had access to literally everything you do on your phone (hint: google, FB, apple already have access to all this)

[redpillage]

So every deadbeat is going to get paid, no matter what??



Over my dead fucking body!!

[DamienCasanova]

(06-07-2016 01:04 AM)philosophical_recovery Wrote:  

The greeks had extensive knowledge of physics, more than is commonly known.

They taught the Romans some, but the technology was scattered and lost. When we only recently re-discovered the antikythera mechanism, it was mind blowing to see the skill that they had.



Technology progress will happen. As it is, now, there is a lot of automated farming. Food, cars, television, internet, you name it, it's here and it's cheaper than ever.

But just like that it could be gone.

A mass of technology, with enough social pressure to not work to survive, and everyone will end up like Eloi. Look at what happens when you hand certain communities freebies for decades, like EBT. It wrecks their family.

UBI will just seal the deal for the rest of us by destroying the struggle to survive.

This experiment has already been run, and nobody cares to address what it has done.

They just keep pushing for more of the same.

I think a lot of the world's unhappiness comes from this fact that... there is no Lion chasing us across the jungle anymore. There is no Mammoth chasing us across the tundra. There is no great adversary for us to fight against (nature), thereby instilling in us the will to live.

For instance, last night I was watching Naked & Afraid, I love survival shows like that and being in those survival and starvation situations it really reveals a person's character deep down like nothing else in this world. It's fascinating to see how people react, some curl up and die, and some excel and live with an unrivaled passion for life. Nothing makes your senses clearer than when you haven't eaten for a week, and you have slept beside a fire in the rain with mud and bugs all over you. Nothing makes you appreciate life more than living like that even for a short period, it gives you an appreciation and a clarity of being that you can't find anywhere else in the world.

By removing the daily grind and daily struggle to live they think they will create universal happiness, but it will create quite the opposite worldwide...universal depression and sadness. People NEED something to get up every day for, they need something to fight against, they need something to challenge them on a daily basis. Because without it we will see even higher instances of mental illness, and more obesity and physical atrophy, and even more cultural decay and destruction than we ever thought possible.

Deep down we are all still cavemen, and we still need that lion chasing us across the serengetti, just like our ancestors did. And without it, we will create our own demons, whether they be mental or physical, to challenge ourselves and torture ourselves with.

Reminds me of that famous Jurassic Park quote
"We got so caught up in wondering if we COULD do (this), that we didn't stop to think if we SHOULD do it."

The idea of creating this Utopia where everyone is happy, and free from work and completely satisfied with everything in the world, the idea is so compelling to some people they can't stop to see all the ways this could end civilization as we know it. For the elites, it's another means to an end, same game as it's ever been...control the world population.