[Downunder]

I was just wondering if there are any users of DHEA here on the forum.

Has it been worthwhile taking them?
What difference have you noticed to your body and wellbeing since taking them?

[kinjutsu]

My advice is to stay away from it.
I was doing 50mg a day for whe i was lifting heavy a few year ago.
When i cycled off i started to lose facial hair.
No exaggeration. M beard became patchy and it was noticeable.
Its also recommended for people over 35.

[Requiem]

You're 30 years late to jump on that train, brah.

It's expensive snake oil with potentially negative side effects.
Why are you considering it? What's the objective?

[Downunder]

Thanks guys.
I`m pushing late 40`s and was thinking that maybe it would help with testosterone and overall wellbeing if i took it.

[PhDre]

I've been on DHEA for 1 year and only recently came off.

First of all you need to know that the benefits of DHEA are real:
- it's necessary for good erections (irrespective of how high your testosterone levels are)
- it's necessary to keep SHBG levels down
- it helps with sleep
These are the benefits that I clearly experienced, but there might be a lot more.
Don't listen to mainstream endo's who will try to tell you that the only function of DHEA is to convert to downstream androgens because it definitely does a lot more.

However, raising your DHEA level in a safe way is a different issue.

Your adrenals secrete two forms of DHEA:
- DHEA, "the real thing", which has a very short half-life (it is used immediately by your body or it breaks down and you piss out its metabolites)
- DHEAs, a sulfonated form of DHEA, which has a long half-life and circulates in your blood stream. If local tissues want to use DHEA, they take DHEAs from the bloodstream and convert it to DHEA so this can be regarded as the storage form of DHEA.
Since DHEAs blood levels are fairly steady throughout the day, it is DHEAs that is measured in bloodtests and not DHEA.

The problem is that DHEAs is not stable outside the human body and DHEA is, so all supplements are DHEA and not DHEAs.

There are three ways to take DHEA supplements:

- oral. In this case the DHEA passes through the liver and gets sulfonated to DHEAs by the liver's phase two detox pathway. This form of administration thus accomplishes its goal.
However, this form of administration has two distinct disadvantages. First of all the DHEA also gets metabolized into testosterone and estradiol during liver metabolism. Unfortunately, the conversion seems to be disproportionately biased towards estradiol, which means that oral DHEA tends to elevate estradiol too high in men.
Secondly, this sulfonation poses a serious burden on your liver's sulfonation pathway, which can lead to other issues. One way to partially counter this is to take your oral DHEA together with MSM (methyl sulfonyl methane) to facilitate the sulfonation process.

- sublingual. In this case the DHEA is quickly absorbed and there is no sulfonation. So you get a quick spike and then piss out everything. To me, this is a bullshit way to take DHEA.
Edit: this will raise your pregnenolone levels.

- transdermal/transmucosal. This might work by slowly releasing the DHEA, similar to how test gels/ injections work. You can easily make your own transdermal from DHEA powder by dissolving it in olive oil and alcohol/DMSO; no need to buy an expensive cream with counterproductive chemicals in it. Of course there is also the possibility that the DHEA gets metabolized in your skin to undesirable products (estradiol).
I don't have enough experience with this form of administration to give a verdict.

Conclusion: if your DHEAs levels are low, it makes sense to boost them.

First of all, try to do this through pregnenolone supplementation. This is far easier on the liver.
If this doesn't work, you can try oral DHEA+MSM. However, you have to constantly keep an eye on all your liver markers + estradiol, testosterone, SHBG and DHT.

[ScrapperTL]

(04-11-2016 04:31 AM)PhDre Wrote:  

I've been on DHEA for 1 year and only recently came off.

First of all you need to know that the benefits of DHEA are real:
- it's necessary for good erections (irrespective of how high your testosterone levels are)
- it's necessary to keep SHBG levels down
- it helps with sleep
These are the benefits that I clearly experienced, but there might be a lot more.
Don't listen to mainstream endo's who will try to tell you that the only function of DHEA is to convert to downstream androgens because it definitely does a lot more.

However, raising your DHEA level in a safe way is a different issue.

Your adrenals secrete two forms of DHEA:
- DHEA, "the real thing", which has a very short half-life (it is used immediately by your body or it breaks down and you piss out its metabolites)
- DHEAs, a sulfonated form of DHEA, which has a long half-life and circulates in your blood stream. If local tissues want to use DHEA, they take DHEAs from the bloodstream and convert it to DHEA so this can be regarded as the storage form of DHEA.
Since DHEAs blood levels are fairly steady throughout the day, it is DHEAs that is measured in bloodtests and not DHEA.

The problem is that DHEAs is not stable outside the human body and DHEA is, so all supplements are DHEA and not DHEAs.

There are three ways to take DHEA supplements:

- oral. In this case the DHEA passes through the liver and gets sulfonated to DHEAs by the liver's phase two detox pathway. This form of administration thus accomplishes its goal.
However, this form of administration has two distinct disadvantages. First of all the DHEA also gets metabolized into testosterone and estradiol during liver metabolism. Unfortunately, the conversion seems to be disproportionately biased towards estradiol, which means that oral DHEA tends to elevate estradiol too high in men.
Secondly, this sulfonation poses a serious burden on your liver's sulfonation pathway, which can lead to other issues. One way to partially counter this is to take your oral DHEA together with MSM (methyl sulfonyl methane) to facilitate the sulfonation process.

- sublingual. In this case the DHEA is quickly absorbed and there is no sulfonation. So you get a quick spike and then piss out everything. To me, this is a bullshit way to take DHEA.
Edit: this will raise your pregnenolone levels.

- transdermal/transmucosal. This might work by slowly releasing the DHEA, similar to how test gels/ injections work. You can easily make your own transdermal from DHEA powder by dissolving it in olive oil and alcohol/DMSO; no need to buy an expensive cream with counterproductive chemicals in it. Of course there is also the possibility that the DHEA gets metabolized in your skin to undesirable products (estradiol).
I don't have enough experience with this form of administration to give a verdict.

Conclusion: if your DHEAs levels are low, it makes sense to boost them.

First of all, try to do this through pregnenolone supplementation. This is far easier on the liver.
If this doesn't work, you can try oral DHEA+MSM. However, you have to constantly keep an eye on all your liver markers + estradiol, testosterone, SHBG and DHT.

Awesome post!

Transdermal DHEA applied to areas of the body with high androgen receptor concentrations (Shoulders, Traps, Biceps, Forearms) has been shown with blood work to favor Testosterone and DHT conversion over Estradiol (E2).

A lot of guys are too scared to try this but Transdermal DHEA applied directly to the testicles has been shown in blood work to skyrocket DHT to way past reference range levels.

DHT is responsible for masculine effects such as Facial Hair Growth, Genital Blood Flow, High Libido, Alpha like Competitive Mental State (winning at any and all costs), Fat Loss, Drier Physique (you will carry less water weight) and Strength.

DHT has also been demonized as the reason for Hair Loss and Acne - although I believe this is a more complicated issue than DHT alone.

DHT in and of itself is not directly anabolic, but indirectly it plays a huge role in anabolism.

Also Dr. John Crisler is one of the most trusted TRT guys on the Planet and on his forum, they openly state that DHEA is not suppressive at Transdermal doses of 50mg per day.

Oral is 100% Garbage - unless you enjoy really high Estrogen levels.

[PhDre]

(04-12-2016 01:31 PM)ScrapperTL Wrote:  

Transdermal DHEA applied to areas of the body with high androgen receptor concentrations (Shoulders, Traps, Biceps, Forearms) has been shown with blood work to favor Testosterone and DHT conversion over Estradiol (E2).

A lot of guys are too scared to try this but Transdermal DHEA applied directly to the testicles has been shown in blood work to skyrocket DHT to way past reference range levels.

Interesting.
This is exactly the same behaviour as transdermal testosterone has.

But did you notice that the transdermal DHEA raised your DHEAs levels in a meaningful way?

Because if you want to increase T or DHT, you can simply use T gel.
(I understand that in the US, DHEA is OTC while T is a prescription drug. In Europe both of them are prescription drugs.)

[ScrapperTL]

(04-13-2016 10:56 AM)PhDre Wrote:  

(04-12-2016 01:31 PM)ScrapperTL Wrote:  

Transdermal DHEA applied to areas of the body with high androgen receptor concentrations (Shoulders, Traps, Biceps, Forearms) has been shown with blood work to favor Testosterone and DHT conversion over Estradiol (E2).

A lot of guys are too scared to try this but Transdermal DHEA applied directly to the testicles has been shown in blood work to skyrocket DHT to way past reference range levels.

Interesting.
This is exactly the same behaviour as transdermal testosterone has.

But did you notice that the transdermal DHEA raised your DHEAs levels in a meaningful way?

Because if you want to increase T or DHT, you can simply use T gel.
(I understand that in the US, DHEA is OTC while T is a prescription drug. In Europe both of them are prescription drugs.)

The studies I have read show that Transdermal DHEA raises DHEA levels far better than Oral DHEA.
However Oral DHEA raises DHEA-S higher than Transdermal DHEA.
Transdermal DHEA for some reason does not increase DHEA-S levels very much.

Though, I don't personally know of any benefit to having very high levels of DHEA-S.

Summary:
Transdermal wins for increased Testosterone, DHT, DHEA and less E2 conversion.
Oral takes the nod if for some reason you need higher DHEA-S levels.

Some studies have shown up to 142mg (weird number I know) can be applied daily (transdermal), without any supression to the HPTA.

I'd stick with 50mg tops though as this has been proven to not cause any suppression.

[PhDre]

^Did they measure blood or saliva DHEA levels multiple times over a 24h period?

If the transdermal raises the baseline DHEA level over the entire day (as opposed to simply spiking it after administration) then there is indeed no need for raised DHEAs.

If I ever get back to DHEA supplementation, I will try the transdermal route for a longer time and ask for both DHEAs and DHEA blood tests.

[ScrapperTL]

(04-13-2016 12:39 PM)PhDre Wrote:  

^Did they measure blood or saliva DHEA levels multiple times over a 24h period?

If the transdermal raises the baseline DHEA level over the entire day (as opposed to simply spiking it after administration) then there is indeed no need for raised DHEAs.

If I ever get back to DHEA supplementation, I will try the transdermal route for a longer time and ask for both DHEAs and DHEA blood tests.

Transdermal should be great for stable levels throughout the day compared to sublingual which I think spikes within 30 minutes and clears out completely within 2.5 hours.

I don't think they measured the blood or saliva as thoroughly as you would of liked.

Here is a copy of one the studies I was reading -

Physiological changes in dehydroepiandrosterone are not reflected by serum levels of active androgens and estrogens but of their metabolites: intracrinology.

Labrie F, Belanger A, Cusan L, Candas B.

Medical Research Council Group in Molecular Endocrinology, Centre Hospitalier de l'Universite Laval Research Center, Le Centre Hospitalier Universitaire de Quebec, Canada.

This study analyzes in detail the serum concentration of the active androgens and estrogens, as well as a series of free and conjugated forms of their precursors and metabolites, after daily application for 2 weeks of 10 mL 20% dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) solution on the skin to avoid first passage through the liver. In men, DHEA administration caused 175%, 90%, 200% and 120% increases in the circulating levels of DHEA and its sulfate (DHEA-S), DHEA-fatty acid esters, and androst-5-ene-3 beta,17 beta-diol, respectively, with a return to basal values 7 days after cessation of the 14-day treatment. Serum androstenedione increased by approximately 80%, whereas serum testosterone and dihydrotestosterone (DHT) remained unchanged. In parallel with the changes in serum DHEA, the concentrations of the conjugated metabolites of DHT, namely androsterone glucuronide, androstane-3 alpha,17 beta-diol-G, and androstane-3 beta,17 beta-diol-G increased by about 75%, 50%, and 75%, respectively, whereas androsterone-sulfate increased 115%. No consistent change was observed in serum estrone (E1) or estradiol (E2) in men receiving DHEA, whereas serum E1-sulfate and E2-sulfate were slightly and inconsistently increased by about 20%, and serum cortisol and aldosterone concentrations were unaffected by DHEA administration. Almost superimposable results were obtained in women for most steroids except testosterone, which was about 50% increased during DHEA treatment. This increase corresponded to about 0.8 nM testosterone, an effect undetectable in men because they already have much higher (approximately 15 nM) basal testosterone levels. In women, the serum levels of the conjugated metabolites of DHT, namely androsterone glucuronide, androstane-3 alpha,17 beta-diol-G, androstane-3 beta,17 beta-diol-G, and androsterone-sulfate were increased by 125%, 140%, 120% and 150%, respectively. The present study demonstrates that the serum concentrations of testosterone, DHT, E1, and E2 are poor indicators of total androgenic and estrogenic activity. However, the esterified metabolites of DHT appear as reliable markers of the total androgen pool, because they directly reflect the intracrine formation of androgens in the tissues possessing the steroidogenic enzymes required to transform the inactive precursors DHEA and DHEA-S into DHT. As well demonstrated in women, who synthesize almost all their androgens from DHEA and DHEA-S, supplementation with physiological amounts of exogeneous DHEA permits the biosynthesis of androgens limited to the appropriate target tissues without leakage of significant amounts of active androgens into the circulation. This local or intracrine biosynthesis and action of androgens eliminates the inappropriate exposure of other tissues to androgens and thus minimizes the risks of undesirable masculinizing or other androgen-related side effects of DHEA.

PMID: 9253308 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

I'll have to dig it up, but there is a really interested study out there that shows that Oral DHEA increases HGH levels while Transdermal does not (DANG!)

For ALL of the benefits of DHEA you may want to try a protocol like this:
25mg Transdermal (Morning right after shower)
25mg Oral (Afternoon with lunch)
Combined with 25mg Clomid and 6mg Exemestane

The reason for this stack:
Oral DHEA: Increased DHEA-S and HGH levels.
Transdermal DHEA: Increased DHEA, Testosterone and DHT levels.
Low Dose Clomid: Occupies the Estrogen Receptor, negating any E2 effects from the Oral DHEA.
Low Dose Exemestane: Lowers SHBG freeing up more circulating Testosterone and DHT.
Also keeps aromatase conversion in check.

For someone in their Teens or Twenties they may notice zero difference on this combination.
However if your in your Thirties and beyond, this stack could be significant enough to keep you always in a stable optimum youthful range.

Also, the lower you keep your bodyfat % the more effective this whole stack becomes (in theory)

[PhDre]

Thanks man, I appreciate that you post the study as well.

As for the HGH, I've never had my levels tested, but I have my IGF-1 and IGFBP-3 levels tested at every blood panel.
When I'm on oral DHEA, my IGF-1 levels go down and my IGFBP-3 levels go up by a significant amount.

So even though my pituitary might secrete more GH, this effect is negated by the negative effect on the liver (which makes IGF and its binding proteins).

[ScrapperTL]

(04-14-2016 10:33 AM)PhDre Wrote:  

Thanks man, I appreciate that you post the study as well.

As for the HGH, I've never had my levels tested, but I have my IGF-1 and IGFBP-3 levels tested at every blood panel.
When I'm on oral DHEA, my IGF-1 levels go down and my IGFBP-3 levels go up by a significant amount.

So even though my pituitary might secrete more GH, this effect is negated by the negative effect on the liver (which makes IGF and its binding proteins).

Hey PhDre, that is a bummer that Oral DHEA isn't raising your IGF-1 levels, everybody reacts slightly different so it is understandable.

To really jack up your IGF-1 levels check out Research Chemical MK-677, it is a Growth Hormone Secretagogue that is not illegal to purchase "for research purposes only"

Also here is the study showing Oral DHEA increasing HGH/IGF-1
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9876338

[ChokingHazard]

Hi ScrapperTL and PhDre,

great posts! I just finished a book written by a retiring German endocrinologist who has been scientifically pushing proper DHEA replacement therapy. He basically confirms what you post.

- DHEA has much more benefits than just conversion into
T (mostly for women, what a pity IMHO) and estradiol (mostly for men).
- Also it seems rather safe if you stay within the physiological norm. Decide yourself if you believe age corrected norm values should be applied or not.

Actually the author of the book I read is focusing more on oral application.

So I wonder if there is any research showing that transdermal DHEA really increases T?
Even the paper that ScrapperTL quoted seems to show the opposite:
"...whereas serum testosterone and dihydrotestosterone (DHT) remained unchanged".
Also I kind of miss some basic statistics, not even the number of patients treated is mentioned.

Myself I see DHT increased a lot (high normal) and estrogen raised (back to normal, so no big issue) and estradiol still within normal range, T low normal (age corrected). 25mg/d.

I enjoyed reading this, keep posting!


P.S. nice avatar pic PhDre ;-)

(04-13-2016 01:04 PM)ScrapperTL Wrote:  

(04-13-2016 12:39 PM)PhDre Wrote:  

^Did they measure blood or saliva DHEA levels multiple times over a 24h period?

...
Here is a copy of one the studies I was reading -

Physiological changes in dehydroepiandrosterone are not reflected by serum levels of active androgens and estrogens but of their metabolites: intracrinology.

Labrie F, Belanger A, Cusan L, Candas B.

Medical Research Council Group in Molecular Endocrinology, Centre Hospitalier de l'Universite Laval Research Center, Le Centre Hospitalier Universitaire de Quebec, Canada.

... Serum androstenedione increased by approximately 80%, whereas serum testosterone and dihydrotestosterone (DHT) remained unchanged. In parallel with the changes in serum DHEA, the concentrations of the conjugated metabolites of DHT, namely androsterone glucuronide, androstane-3 alpha,17 beta-diol-G, and ...

[ScrapperTL]

(04-14-2016 03:23 PM)ChokingHazard Wrote:  

Hi ScrapperTL and PhDre,

great posts! I just finished a book written by a retiring German endocrinologist who has been scientifically pushing proper DHEA replacement therapy. He basically confirms what you post.

- DHEA has much more benefits than just conversion into
T (mostly for women, what a pity IMHO) and estradiol (mostly for men).
- Also it seems rather safe if you stay within the physiological norm. Decide yourself if you believe age corrected norm values should be applied or not.

Actually the author of the book I read is focusing more on oral application.

So I wonder if there is any research showing that transdermal DHEA really increases T?
Even the paper that ScrapperTL quoted seems to show the opposite:
"...whereas serum testosterone and dihydrotestosterone (DHT) remained unchanged".
Also I kind of miss some basic statistics, not even the number of patients treated is mentioned.

Myself I see DHT increased a lot (high normal) and estrogen raised (back to normal, so no big issue) and estradiol still within normal range, T low normal (age corrected). 25mg/d.

I enjoyed reading this, keep posting!


P.S. nice avatar pic PhDre ;-)

(04-13-2016 01:04 PM)ScrapperTL Wrote:  

(04-13-2016 12:39 PM)PhDre Wrote:  

^Did they measure blood or saliva DHEA levels multiple times over a 24h period?

...
Here is a copy of one the studies I was reading -

Physiological changes in dehydroepiandrosterone are not reflected by serum levels of active androgens and estrogens but of their metabolites: intracrinology.

Labrie F, Belanger A, Cusan L, Candas B.

Medical Research Council Group in Molecular Endocrinology, Centre Hospitalier de l'Universite Laval Research Center, Le Centre Hospitalier Universitaire de Quebec, Canada.

... Serum androstenedione increased by approximately 80%, whereas serum testosterone and dihydrotestosterone (DHT) remained unchanged. In parallel with the changes in serum DHEA, the concentrations of the conjugated metabolites of DHT, namely androsterone glucuronide, androstane-3 alpha,17 beta-diol-G, and ...

ChokingHazard, interestingly enough, I have seen studies that show Androstenedione to have Anabolic properties at the Androgen Receptor level alone, prior to conversion to the more dominant/target sex hormones.

Also, the study quoted above is a bit mind-bending that androstenedione increased by damn near 80% yet serum testosterone and DHT went relatively unchanged.

Shit like this blows me away and as Patrick Arnold has stated many times - he has personally seen that a lot of male sex hormone precursors are under constant conversions, going back & forth in a chaotic plus/minus swing of a dance, until they finally meet their final conversion end.

This oddly enough (random) reminds of Bruce Banner battling his anger before eventually becoming the Incredible Hulk.

Want another brain-exploder?
Look up the research on Pregnenalone keeping DHT in-check (preventing it from skyrocketing) while also simultaneously and indirectly increasing Testosterone levels.

At first this seems beneficial, especially since Pregnenalone is a neuro-transmitter booster and great for well being/brain health/productivity, until you realize that the end result of all this is a more feminine physique because of rate limiting DHT.

The body is fucking nuts, I am amazed by guys like Dr. Crisler that can manipulate it like a puppet master.

[Requiem]

You guys have read and written a lot about DHEA. Still I feel like everything has been said with my post #3. 2 out of 3 methods of application are definite shit and the third one is questionable at best. You noticed the more promising studies mostly don't seem very legit and even if ignoring that, they usually don't really indicate any effective results. Some blood levels can go up temporarily depending on age and gender but what positive does that actually do for your body?

Have any of you actually experienced definite results while taking this that cannot be explained by placebo?

examine.com/supplements/Dehydroepiandrosterone/

Not to be a dick here - take it if it makes you happy - but nothing that has been said thus far convinced me in any way that there is more to it than how I described it in post #3.
I stand by my analysis.

[PhDre]

^You're not being a dick. We're here for discussion, otherwise OP could just take the advice from some random health website.

I talk about DHEA from my own personal experience. I was on for 1+ years, under supervision of one of the world's most renowned endo's / anti-aging doctors, with complete blood panels every 3 months.

For me it made a clear difference: capable of achieving erections, better sleep, better concentration and more drive to work. These effects went far beyond placebo or beyond other things that I've tried (being pregnenolone, testosterone, herbs like tribulus, horny goat weed and maca, all kinds of vitamins and minerals, acupuncture, cold showers, psychological treatment, super strict diets, avoidance of endocrine disruptors...)

Note: I was low in DHEAs to start. I had a blood level (confirmed on multiple occasions over several years) of 100 microg/dl from my early twenties whereas the lab reference range was from 200-610 and youthful values are above 400.

However after a while my liver always catches up with me (swelling, increased bilirubin, estradiol, IGFBP-3, decreased IGF-1) so I decided that low DHEAs was not the root cause of my problems but a symptom and I came off.

If I ever manage to solve the root cause and my levels don't rebound, I'll give transdermal a serious try.

[ScrapperTL]

(04-15-2016 10:05 AM)PhDre Wrote:  

^You're not being a dick. We're here for discussion, otherwise OP could just take the advice from some random health website.

I talk about DHEA from my own personal experience. I was on for 1+ years, under supervision of one of the world's most renowned endo's / anti-aging doctors, with complete blood panels every 3 months.

For me it made a clear difference: capable of achieving erections, better sleep, better concentration and more drive to work. These effects went far beyond placebo or beyond other things that I've tried (being pregnenolone, testosterone, herbs like tribulus, horny goat weed and maca, all kinds of vitamins and minerals, acupuncture, cold showers, psychological treatment, super strict diets, avoidance of endocrine disruptors...)

Note: I was low in DHEAs to start. I had a blood level (confirmed on multiple occasions over several years) of 100 microg/dl from my early twenties whereas the lab reference range was from 200-610 and youthful values are above 400.

However after a while my liver always catches up with me (swelling, increased bilirubin, estradiol, IGFBP-3, decreased IGF-1) so I decided that low DHEAs was not the root cause of my problems but a symptom and I came off.

If I ever manage to solve the root cause and my levels don't rebound, I'll give transdermal a serious try.

This post explains the importance of DHEA perfectly.
Basically, DHEA is not a Miracle Drug and it is also not Snake Oil.
It is a supplement designed to aid persons with deficiencies.

A lot of the benefits of DHEA - do not improve a persons Physique whatsoever.
Benefits can range from Mental Alertness, General Sense of Well Being, Fat Loss and Improved Libido.
Again, these benefits only happen if you are deficient to begin with.

Requiem, DHEA may be worthless Snake Oil to you now, because you are a healthy youthful male.
When you are in your 50's and beyond, it may be a Godsend for you, or not.
It all depends on deficiencies.

Some men are lucky to have strong Pregnenolone, DHEA, HGH, DHT and Testosterone levels well into their 80's.
Others who didn't win the genetic lottery may completely stop producing some of these hormones.

[ChokingHazard]

I Second that. There's more than enough evidence that it is not snake oil (a simple pub med search will give a list). Obviously it only makes sense if you have low DHEA, or as a man you have low estrogen and use DHEA to rise it and T to complement it.

I don't have a link now, but I remember a study where they gave healthy volunteers DHEA and concluded that there was no benefit at all. What would you expect? ;-)

[Requiem]

@PhDre: Well, if you were this deficient, then I can see how the supplementation would benefit you. Even though DHEA levels naturally drop with age, outright deficiencies still aren't the norm. I don't believe that improving the levels inside the healthy range has much of an effect (say from low-normal to mid-normal for example). But rectifying deficiencies can of course improve things notably.

So OP, if you suspect you might be deficient, just have it tested and then decide. If it's, as you put it, just for "testosterone and overall well-being", it doesn't sound like you suffer any symptoms, so in your case it's probably not worth the money and the potential side-effects.

[Downunder]

(04-15-2016 05:05 PM)Requiem Wrote:  

@PhDre: Well, if you were this deficient, then I can see how the supplementation would benefit you. Even though DHEA levels naturally drop with age, outright deficiencies still aren't the norm. I don't believe that improving the levels inside the healthy range has much of an effect (say from low-normal to mid-normal for example). But rectifying deficiencies can of course improve things notably.

So OP, if you suspect you might be deficient, just have it tested and then decide. If it's, as you put it, just for "testosterone and overall well-being", it doesn't sound like you suffer any symptoms, so in your case it's probably not worth the money and the potential side-effects.

Thanks to everyone who has posted. I`m going to get blood tested tomorrow, so i`ll post the results when they come through.
I`m heading towards 48yo, have noticed a bit of gyno starting to occur, so i just want to know if it is testosterone issue.

[ScrapperTL]

(04-18-2016 11:40 PM)Downunder Wrote:  

(04-15-2016 05:05 PM)Requiem Wrote:  

@PhDre: Well, if you were this deficient, then I can see how the supplementation would benefit you. Even though DHEA levels naturally drop with age, outright deficiencies still aren't the norm. I don't believe that improving the levels inside the healthy range has much of an effect (say from low-normal to mid-normal for example). But rectifying deficiencies can of course improve things notably.

So OP, if you suspect you might be deficient, just have it tested and then decide. If it's, as you put it, just for "testosterone and overall well-being", it doesn't sound like you suffer any symptoms, so in your case it's probably not worth the money and the potential side-effects.

Thanks to everyone who has posted. I`m going to get blood tested tomorrow, so i`ll post the results when they come through.
I`m heading towards 48yo, have noticed a bit of gyno starting to occur, so i just want to know if it is testosterone issue.

Smart move taking charge of your health and masculinity.
You may want to research a bit about SERMS (Clomid & Nolvadex) and Aromatase Inhibitors (Arimidex, Letrozole) and Suicide Inhibitors (Exemestane) and HCG (stimulates your leydig cells/testicles to produce testosterone)

DHEA probably won't be enough to swing your endocrine system to a more Androgenic landscape than an Estrogenic one.

Things like Andractim Gel (DHT) and possibly even Testosterone injections (if you are very low) should help a lot.

If your Total Testosterone is high and your free Testosterone is low, & your E2 levels are high, you'll probably just need a daily SERM or AI.

Please report back with results, your Doc/Endo can either be a Genius or a total Ditz.
It's a crap shoot out there.

[PhDre]

^In Downunder's case, I would absolutely stay away from DHEA or testosterone until his gyno is solved.

Downunder, you have gyno because your estradiol is too high. DHEA and testosterone will drive this up even more.
You first need to get aromatase under control.

What's your body fat? If you are fat (above 15% or so), the first step is to lower your body fat.
Cut back on alcohol, soy, sugar, processed food as well, these foods are estrogenic.
Eat more cruciferous vegetables, garlic, onions and saturated fat to lower aromatase.
Check your sleep (amount and quality).

Once you've made these lifestyle changes, you can try natural aromatase inhibitors/estrogen blockers/liver support herbs.

Only when this approach fails would I consider a real AI.