[Orson]

Roosh is RIGHT! (Alternative headline for this thread. But I could have credited George Orwell just as well.)

Psychologist Jonathan Haidt says a lot of things. He's a man of the Left in recovery, he's said, because he thinks the Right is deeper about human nature.

This new blog post finds him discovering that PC begins in high school. That is oppresses all, but especially males. That the remedy is viewpoint diversity. (Could it really be THAT simple?)


Some pullquotes

Quote:

Last summer I had a conversation with some boys who attend one of the nation’s top prep schools, in New England. They reported the same thing: as white males, they are constantly on eggshells, afraid to speak up on any remotely controversial topic lest they be sent to the “equality police” (that was their term for the multicultural center). I probed to see if their fear extended beyond the classroom. I asked them what they would do if there was a new student at their school, from, say Yemen. Would they feel free to ask the student questions about his or her country? No, they said, it’s too risky, a question could be perceived as offensive.

Quote:

The entire student body — around 450 students, from grades 9-12 — were in the auditorium. There was plenty of laughter at all the right spots, and a lot of applause at the end, so I thought the talk was well received.

But then the discussion began, and it was the most unremittingly hostile questioning I’ve ever had. I don’t mind when people ask hard or critical questions, but I was surprised that I had misread the audience so thoroughly. My talk had little to do with gender, but the second question was “So you think rape is OK?” Like most of the questions, it was backed up by a sea of finger snaps — the sort you can hear in the infamous Yale video, where a student screams at Prof. Christakis to “be quiet” and tells him that he is “disgusting.” I had never heard the snapping before. When it happens in a large auditorium it is disconcerting. It makes you feel that you are facing an angry and unified mob — a feeling I have never had in 25 years of teaching and public speaking.

After the first dozen questions I noticed that not a single questioner was male. I began to search the sea of hands asking to be called on and I did find one boy, who asked a question that indicated that he too was critical of my talk.

Next, he led discussion when things broke into a smaller voluntary group of about 60 students:

Quote:

Me: What kind of intellectual climate do you want here at Centerville [High School, an alias]? Would you rather have option A: a school where people with views you find offensive keep their mouths shut, or B: a school where everyone feels that they can speak up in class discussions?

Audience: All hands go up for B.

Me: OK, let’s see if you have that. When there is a class discussion about gender issues, do you feel free to speak up and say what you are thinking? Or do you feel that you are walking on eggshells and you must heavily censor yourself? Just the girls in the class, raise your hand if you feel you can speak up? [about 70% said they feel free, vs about 10% who said eggshells ]. Now just the boys? [about 80% said eggshells, nobody said they feel free].

Quote:

Me: So let me get this straight. You were unanimous in saying that you want your school to be a place where people feel free to speak up, even if you strongly dislike their views. But you don’t have such a school. In fact, you have exactly the sort of “tolerance” that Herbert Marcuse advocated [which I had discussed in my lecture, and which you can read about here]. You have a school in which only people in the preferred groups get to speak, and everyone else is afraid. What are you going to do about this? Let’s talk.

After that, the conversation was extremely civil and constructive. The boys took part just as much as the girls. We talked about what Centerville could do to improve its climate, and I said that the most important single step would be to make viewpoint diversity a priority.

On the entire faculty, there was not a single teacher that was known to be conservative or Republican. So if these teenagers are coming into political consciousness inside of a “moral matrix” that is uniformly leftist, there will always be anger directed at those who disrupt that consensus.

Put it another way, moral conformity replicates itself, so long as the "moral masters" socially punish dissent.

[Orson]

One final quote:

Quote:

You might think that this is some sort of justice — white males have enjoyed positions of privilege for centuries, and now they are getting a taste of their own medicine. But these are children. And remember that most students who are in a victim group for one topic are in the “oppressor” group for another. So everyone is on eggshells sometimes; all students at Centerville High learn to engage with books, ideas, and people using the twin habits of defensive self-censorship and vindictive protectiveness.

Ergo, rampant political correctness Kultur kampf.

[Days of Broken Arrows]

I just posted this in the "40 Percent of Millennials OK With Limiting Free Speech" thread. But it probably deserves its own thread.

The larger point being: Kids don't get this way by themselves. Someone has to be teaching them this, and it's not so much parents (who are busy) or mainstream media (which kids don't want). It's teachers, programmed by the very colleges these kids will one day attend. Scary.

[Renzy]

From the article:

Quote:

After the Q&A, I got a half-standing ovation: almost all of the boys in the room stood up to cheer. And after the crowd broke up, a line of boys came up to me to thank me and shake my hand. Not a single girl came up to me afterward.

Probably goes a long way in explaining why boys are doing so poorly relative to girls in school- his talk clearly struck a nerve; it obviously resonated with the boys and it sounds like he got to experience some of the hostility from girls that boys put up with for 12 years in our public school system.

[Orson]

(11-25-2015 12:50 PM)Renzy Wrote:  

From the article:

Quote:

After the Q&A, I got a half-standing ovation: almost all of the boys in the room stood up to cheer. And after the crowd broke up, a line of boys came up to me to thank me and shake my hand. Not a single girl came up to me afterward.

Probably goes a long way in explaining why boys are doing so poorly relative to girls in school- his talk clearly struck a nerve; it obviously resonated with the boys and it sounds like he got to experience some of the hostility from girls that boys put up with for 12 years in our public school system.

YES, indeed, renzy/

PC-pushback is appearing in the form of attempts to organize White Student Unions and such.

I'm with forming Men's groups instead.

[Paracelsus]

A psychologist having a fucking epiphany? Fuck off. His breed are the kind who put this shit into schools to start with. Teachers aren't bright enough to institute this rubbish into schools off their own bats.

[SunW]

Let's point out the real problem: Jonathan Haidt is a straight male and he knows that he's becoming the target. He will only be able to use the fact that he's Jewish for so long before he experiences the same fate of the people he's attacked in the past (as a liberal professor). Note that a comment at the site says this and this will be how he's received in his future:

Quote:

A privileged white male should not be writing an article about how he and other white males feel bullied into not being in a comfortable place in terms of speaking freely. This problem is way too complicated to be traced to a root problem of outspoken women and liberals…? And someone center-right would have perfect comfort in many conservative leaning places in the US. Mr. Haidt visited many knowingly heavily left leaning places in the US. Maybe he should try a different audience.

I echo the sentiments of Paracelsus: this shitwad isn't on our side, he's only supporting males now because he's realizing that he's about to be a target. He was one of the many who helped attack us in the past, so I will not defend him when he's under fire - and he will be. It's the old Nazi saying, "First they came for the ..."

Yeah, Jonathan - you made us an enemy, now you're trying to reverse it because they'll be coming for you next. No sir, you reap what you've sown.

As for other RVF members, if you're this easily manipulated by a person who's trying to protect their butt, you're in trouble anyway. These people are not our allies - they've been working tirelessly in the past to destroy every place where straight males could discuss things that were important to us, like we do at RVF. Now, they realize that their jobs may be on the line and suddenly we see this change of, "Oh wait!" No, don't be manipulated. They are tasting their own destructive creations.

[demolition]

Jonathan Haidt is a smart guy. Read his book "The Righteous Mind" and would recommend it to RVF members. That being said, yes, he's still a liberal and a powerful antagonist in many ways to the neomasculine school of thought. At times I was very frustrated while reading his book because he's able to see many of the problems with liberalism, but instead of acknowledging the flaws of his intellectual framework, he wavers on that last bold step and retreats into the comfortable lies, doubling down. If you were more dedicated to evangelism of thought than I am, you could learn a lot by going through this man's book and focusing on the areas where his intellectual courage falters.

[sixsix]

A major recent paper was recently published by the same people:

"Political diversity will improve social psychological science"
Authors: J.L. Duarte, J.T. Crawford, C. Stern, J. Haidt, L. Jussim, & P.E. Tetlock. Journal: Behavioral and Brain Sciences (2015).

Abstract:

Quote:

Psychologists have demonstrated the value of diversity – particularly diversity of viewpoints – for enhancing creativity, discovery, and problem solving. But one key type of viewpoint diversity is lacking in academic psychology in general and social psychology in particular: political diversity. This article reviews the available evidence and finds support for four claims: (1) Academic psychology once had considerable political diversity, but has lost nearly all of it in the last 50 years. (2) This lack of political diversity can undermine the validity of social psychological science via mechanisms such as the embedding of liberal values into research questions and methods, steering researchers away from important but politically unpalatable research topics, and producing conclusions that mischaracterize liberals and conservatives alike. (3) Increased political diversity would improve social psychological science by reducing the impact of bias mechanisms such as confirmation bias, and by empowering dissenting minorities to improve the quality of the majority's thinking. (4) The underrepresentation of non-liberals in social psychology is most likely due to a combination of self-selection, hostile climate, and discrimination. We close with recommendations for increasing political diversity in social psychology.

Very interesting read. They report that many academics admit they discriminate conservative students and coworkers.

[birthday cat]

PC oppression begins in high school early childhood just like everything else that affects our personalities and behaviors. Young children absorb a lot from their environment and internalize it quickly.

Why do you think men with feminist mothers are usually so bad with women? They learned to put girls on a pedestal at an early age.

The outrageous beliefs of millennial SJWs are a result of the PC culture from 15-30 years ago being amplified. Millennial SJWs internalized ideas learned from their parents and environment when they were young children. They are human therefore they are irrational so it is difficult for them to think logically when logic contradicts strongly held beliefs that developed in early childhood.

(11-26-2015 06:17 AM)Paracelsus Wrote:  

A psychologist having a fucking epiphany? Fuck off. His breed are the kind who put this shit into schools to start with. Teachers aren't bright enough to institute this rubbish into schools off their own bats.

I don't know much about Jonathan Haidt but the pattern I see with Ph.D. psychologists is that they might be smart but they are terrible at applying their psychology to simple real life situations.

[TigerMandingo]

You may have noticed that it is Jewish academics who are starting to speak out against liberal fascism on campuses. The reason isn't because they give a shit about conservative views being heard. As far they're concerned, straight white males can go suck a dick and continue to be bombarded with anti-western propaganda. The real reason they're speaking up is because of the rise of anti-Israeli sentiment across colleges, which they fear borders on Anti-Semitism. Just another case of the snake eating its own tail. Nothing to see here, folks.

[britchard]

(11-26-2015 11:19 AM)TigerMandingo Wrote:  

You may have noticed that it is Jewish academics who are starting to speak out against liberal fascism on campuses. The reason isn't because they give a shit about conservative views being heard. As far they're concerned, straight white males can go suck a dick and continue to be bombarded with anti-western propaganda. The real reason they're speaking up is because of the rise of anti-Israeli sentiment across colleges, which they fear borders on Anti-Semitism. Just another case of the snake eating its own tail. Nothing to see here, folks.

There is more anti-Israel sentiment because of the whole liberal pro islam/refugees movement, I suspect.

If it comes to a choice between Islam and Israel, I know which side I support (I'm aware it's a bit of a 'pick your poison' scenario)

[eljeffster]

“Do I not destroy my enemies when I make them my friends?”
― Abraham Lincoln

“We do not merely destroy our enemies; we change them.”
― George Orwell, 1984

While I can understand the reaction of dismissing a guy whose profession and views helped pave the way for the current toxic society and unbridled feminism, I think that the purity of a neomasculine movement is not corrupted when others outside the movement acknowledge its realities. How many of us had to caste off our beta attitudes and mindsets when taking the red pill?

Having said that, gotta watch out for these types trying to co-opt and control red-pill ideas/philosophies.

[Anabasis to Desta]

I could have sworn it started in Elementary school.

[quino_16]

(11-27-2015 12:25 PM)Anabasis to Desta Wrote:  

I could have sworn it started in Elementary school.

At least for me, the liberal/pc indoctrination did start in elementary school. It was mostly subtle though.

[Lucky]

Jon Haidt is one of the good ones. He's one of the few established academics openly criticizing the bullshit protests occurring on college campuses.

[Days of Broken Arrows]

(11-26-2015 11:19 AM)TigerMandingo Wrote:  

You may have noticed that it is Jewish academics who are starting to speak out against liberal fascism on campuses. The reason isn't because they give a shit about conservative views being heard. As far they're concerned, straight white males can go suck a dick and continue to be bombarded with anti-western propaganda. The real reason they're speaking up is because of the rise of anti-Israeli sentiment across colleges, which they fear borders on Anti-Semitism. Just another case of the snake eating its own tail. Nothing to see here, folks.

Some of this is true, since polls generally show 80 percent of American Jews as being liberal.

But outside of academics, and looking at Jews in general, we need to be careful ascribing motives to the other 20 percent. There are Jews who are conservative. My ex was one. It wasn't for any of the above reasons.

She despised political correctness because she'd read a lot of Orwell and Huxley and saw it as the road to tyranny. She also thought Reagan and Bush's economic policies were excellent, believed welfare led to the destruction of both the family and work ethic, and almost got fired for vehemently opposing Affirmative-Action in meeting after meeting at work.

And although she was part of the working world, she despised feminism and felt she was a victim of feminist policies, not a beneficiary. Needless to say, she's persona non grata among her hardcore liberal Jewish friends.

Also, if that's not enough, one of my college girlfriends was (and is) Jewish and was so vocally right-wing that she actually scared people, mostly due to her obsession with Ayn Rand. Never in my life have I had anyone push a book on me like she pushed "The Fountainhead"* -- which she'd work into conversations almost daily.

Anyway, such people exist in all left-leaning minority groups. We should see them as outliers. There is no point in alienating potential allies.

* Sorry, Kim. I still haven't read it.

[Eskhander]

You can say it's justified to do this to white males, but you're just admitting you're anti-white at that point.

[Phatom]

Haha those Jewish intellectuals. Just look at Alan Dershowitz, as soon as their interests are threatened, they'll jump ship.

[SunW]

(11-26-2015 11:19 AM)TigerMandingo Wrote:  

You may have noticed that it is Jewish academics who are starting to speak out against liberal fascism on campuses. The reason isn't because they give a shit about conservative views being heard. As far they're concerned, straight white males can go suck a dick and continue to be bombarded with anti-western propaganda. The real reason they're speaking up is because of the rise of anti-Israeli sentiment across colleges, which they fear borders on Anti-Semitism. Just another case of the snake eating its own tail. Nothing to see here, folks.

You got it. Many of you are failing to realize how hard it is to claim victim status when you read things like this:

Quote:

Jews are the highest-earning religious group in the United States, with 46 percent of the working population earning a six-digit figure every year, according to a study released this week. In terms of annual earnings, the only other group to even come close to the average Jewish income was the Hindus, with 43 percent earning over $100,000. No other group reached even the 30 percent mark, and the overall US average was only 18 percent earning six-figure digits annually.

Talk about an oppressed minority! Jonathan Haidt is not an ally; he's about to have his head taken by the very same SJWs that he helped created against us.

You can be manipulated by this fool, but it's obvious why he's now coming to our defense. There is no one now to defend him, yet he created this situation for himself.

Liberal academics and leftists can go fuck themselves.

[Renzy]

Jonathan Haidt posted a follow up to his original article. Apparently, the original article generated nearly 300 comments, many of which were from the high school students themselves.

He also issued an apology for part of his original article:

Quote:

The only other preface I want to add is to repeat here the apology I added to the last post, a few days after publishing it:

My original draft of this post said that the boys were “bullied into submission by the girls with the blessing of the teachers.” But this was unfair and I regret it. The Centerville teachers I met were all very friendly to me, even after my talk. I think they could do more to counter the intimidation felt by students with minority viewpoints, but I have no reason to think that the teachers at Centerville are anything other than caring professionals who try to curate class discussions without inserting their own views. Indeed, the comments from “Centerville” students below, in the comment threads, indicate that the intimidation comes primarily from other students, not from the teachers. This is a pattern I have seen at universities as well.

His apology makes it sounds as if the teachers are well-meaning, but somehow their hands are tied and they are helpless "to counter the intimidation felt by students with minority (ie conservative) viewpoints." I'm kind of surprised he'd be more willing to lay the blame on teenage kids than the adults in charge of supervising and moderating these debates, but it is what it is...

Anyway, he's highlighted some of the comments from the "Centerville" high school students he received. I was honestly surprised at some of them. A lot of ink gets spilled on how colleges are becoming liberal indoctrination centers, but from some of the comments I'm starting to think that K-12 public school must be just as bad.

From a student named Carter:

Quote:

I have most certainly been aggressively verbally confronted by classmates and teachers when I say an opinion that is not the norm, and I will note that it is not usually male classmates doing this. The issue is not that female students have a strong voice. All students should have a strong voice, it is essential to the learning process. The issue is when students use their voice to attack others in a harmful way and prevent a safe learning environment from forming. It is not an issue that points of view are challenged, and we agree on this, it is that they are attacked. The difference in our opinion is that in my experience, different opinions are attacked, and often.

As a conservative male the difference between when I express my opinions, and when a liberal does is stark.

And the reply to his comment from Courtenay:

Quote:

I believe the majority of those confrontations happen in instances where others have more of a stake in the conversation than you. By this I mean that the conversation is one concerning, for example, women. Lets say its a discussion on abortion. Obviously the women will have very strong opinions because it is concerning their own bodily rights, and if your comment or opinion compromises that in any way, they may understandably be verbally aggressive. In that instances, you are entitled to your own opinion, however it is marginally less valid than that of a woman who the issue actually affects.

Haidt makes note of her comment: Note again how the social category of a speaker is used to augment or discount the value of the speaker’s ideas. Note also that the exchange rate for valuing identities is determined by one political faction.

Quote:

I was a 14-year-old female student at “Centerville” in 9th grade. It was an election year. When voicing my support for a conservative candidate, an aggressive classmate called me an idiot. Another called me a racist for not supporting Obama, even though my rationale centered on economic policies.

Teachers were openly and uniformly liberal (you could tell by the posters hanging in their rooms and the stickers on their cars). Their clear support of a single viewpoint seemed to fuel the righteousness that came at me from my fellow students. One student pulled me aside and said she worried I was being bullied and suggested I keep my views to myself. I didn’t want to (or couldn’t resist) and found myself in a constant state of conflict. After seeing a political sticker on my binder, a student in biology shoved my books to the ground and called me stupid. I don’t blame him – he was only 14 too. The climate at “Centerville” fueled his thinking. There were students with conservative views, but only the boldest spoke up.

The student who asked Haidt, "So you think rape is OK?” chimes in:

Quote:

My original opinion on your presentation has not changed. I think that you as a white male shouldn’t be responsible for making the rules on how we must discuss topics like race and gender. I do not mean that you are not allowed to and I am not trying to silence your free speech.

You don't get to have a say in how we discuss these topics, but that doesn't mean I'm trying to silence your free speech.

The double-think. It hurts.

Quote:

Your ideas come from a point of privilege, and biases are inevitably attached to your ideas. These biases also come from a point of privilege. No matter how many articles, books, or journals you read you will never be able to fully understand the struggles of those of us who are not privileged. This means your ideas, frankly, don’t matter as much as those who have lived a life as an underprivileged person. In my opinion, from your point of view you cannot see the whole picture.

These are my thoughts, and in no way am I saying that I’m right.

Your ideas matter less than mine because you're a straight, white male. But "in no way am I saying that I’m right."

Read through the comments these students posted...

This is the next generation coming up through the pipeline and it makes me think things are going to get worse before they get better.

[Parzival]

(11-27-2015 12:25 PM)Anabasis to Desta Wrote:  

I could have sworn it started in Elementary school.

There was a report about the lack of male teachers at schools. So for a pilot project they send some male teacher to the elementary school. Even teachers with full beard get called Miss by the pupils because they are not used to a man any more. Happen in Germany.
What positive role model is out there for boys these days?

[demolition]

Thanks for the follow up Renzy. It's astounding how lacking in self-awareness some of the students who wrote in criticizing Haidt are. At once good and bad news. Good because the true nature of these people will become more apparent, bad because it will get worse before getting better (and it might take a long time to get better).

[eljeffster]

(12-03-2015 10:02 AM)Renzy Wrote:  

Quote:

Your ideas come from a point of privilege, and biases are inevitably attached to your ideas. These biases also come from a point of privilege. No matter how many articles, books, or journals you read you will never be able to fully understand the struggles of those of us who are not privileged. This means your ideas, frankly, don’t matter as much as those who have lived a life as an underprivileged person. In my opinion, from your point of view you cannot see the whole picture.

These are my thoughts, and in no way am I saying that I’m right.

Your ideas matter less than mine because you're a straight, white male. But "in no way am I saying that I’m right."

Read through the comments these students posted...

This is the next generation coming up through the pipeline and it makes me think things are going to get worse before they get better.

It is interesting how the next generation coming up appears to lack empathy- the ability to see things from other peoples perspectives without necessarily agreeing with their point of view. I also find the comment that no matter how many books etc. Haidt reads, the student believes he will never be able to gain any insight into the perspective of the "non-privileged" to be ridiculous.

The whole point of, and greatest thing about literature, is that it puts the reader into the different perspectives of the characters. In reading I have been the conflicted man in "Crime in Punishment", I have been the poor Chinese peasant in the "Good Earth". I have been the subject of prejudice in "To Kill a Mockingbird." I have been creatures from other galaxies and dimensions with completely alien thought patterns. Even stranger I have been a woman (character- don't get ideas!)

In other words, great literature gives a person empathy by allowing them to see through the eyes of others.

It isn't Haidt who has the problem, its the little fuckers who don't read literature.

[Fast Eddie]

Nope.