[Lucky]

I just read Chuck Klosterman's I Wear the Black Hat, a book about villainy and what it means to be a villain. It got me thinking about television characters that reverse Harvey Dent's famous line from The Dark Knight.

“You either die a villain or remain on a TV series long enough to become a hero.”

Some shows where a villain becomes good or partners with the protagonist:

The Office- Ed Helms (Andy Bernard)

Breaking Bad- Mike Ehrmantraut, Saul Goodman

Mad Men- Pete Campbell, Ted Chaough

The Fresh Prince of Bel Air- Carleton Banks (in season 1 he and Will have an adversarial relationship)

Dexter- Joey Quinn

Weeds- Guillermo

Sons of Anarchy- Black Guerilla Family (gang that offered them protection in prison)

The Wire- Bubbles (starts as a straight up criminal, later becomes a police informant)

The Leftovers- Reverend Matt Jamison

Dragon Ball Z- Vegeta, Piccolo


Who have I missed? What other characters can you think of?

I’m not a Game of Thrones fan myself but I imagine that there are some characters that fit the bill.

[Paracelsus]

Game of Thrones tends to be about everyone who's not an arsehole getting their head chopped off by those who are, exceptions being made for those characters wearing Plot Armour.

The only specific "villain who becomes hero" I can remember off the top of my head is Zachary Quinto as Sylar on the NBC series Heroes.

I do remember what Lee Marvin was reported as saying when he was asked how he could stand to play so many villains: "Villains? I don't play bad people. I play people just trying to get by each day the best they can." Which was why he was so good at playing bad: because he knew that nobody thinks they're a bad person.

[Captainstabbin]

Parks and Rec - Andy Dwyer (he started off as a manipulating, lazy dick)
Buffy the Vampire Slayer - Spike
Vampire Diaries - Damon
Xena: Warrior Princess - Xena
Battlestar Galactica - Six (the blonde), Baltar
Transformers - Skyfire
Lost - Sawyer

[Hannibal]

Rollo from The Vikings. I have not seen the new season yet, so he might have turned right back into being an asshole.

[Hades]

Bubbles from the Wire was always kind of the goofy good-hearted guy, never really a villain. A better fit from that series in particular would be Omar Little even though he's basically an antihero.

[vinman]

(07-15-2015 07:16 AM)Lucky Wrote:  

Who have I missed? What other characters can you think of?

I’m not a Game of Thrones fan myself but I imagine that there are some characters that fit the bill.

Edit* Hades beat me to it
Omar from The Wire!

[whoishe]

Not exactly "villain to hero", but Walton Goggins (Boyd Crowder) survived all 6 seasons of "Justified" and writers had to try really hard for viewers to dislike him. Despite him being a main adversary to lead character (Raylan Givens played by Timothy Olyphant).

It also made me thinking about Stone Cold Steve Austin from World Wrestling Federation, who had rebellious persona since 1996 and fans loved him. Its weekly television show with a script after all

[Lucky]

(07-15-2015 08:14 AM)whoishe Wrote:  

Not exactly "villain to hero", but Walton Goggins (Boyd Crowder) survived all 6 seasons of "Justified" and writers had to try really hard for viewers to dislike him. Despite him being a main adversary to lead character (Raylan Givens played by Timothy Olyphant).

I never watched Justified but I liked Goggins' performance on The Shield. His fucked up relationship with Vic Mackey was something that in the later seasons made it one of the best shows on TV.

[Ryre]

(07-15-2015 07:16 AM)Lucky Wrote:  

I just read Chuck Klosterman's I Wear the Black Hat, a book about villainy and what it means to be a villain. It got me thinking about television characters that reverse Harvey Dent's famous line from The Dark Knight.


Breaking Bad- Mike Ehrmantraut, Saul Goodman

Dexter- Joey Quinn

The Wire- Bubbles (starts as a straight up criminal, later becomes a police informant)

Based on the shows I'm familiar with this is an oversimplification. These were morally complex shows; none of these characters were ever straightforwardly heroes or villains. How did Saul Goodman start out a villain? How did he become a hero? He started out a sleazy corrupt lawyer and stayed that way. Perhaps you could say that when Walt first met him, Saul was more criminal, but by the end Walt became more deeply criminal and willing to go further than Saul was, so that their relative positions changed.

Joey Quinn was always a pretty good cop who took money now and then and thought with his dick. Mike Erhmantraut was always a professional, a do-what-it-takes no-nonsense operator. Bubbles was always one of the more likable characters on The Wire, one of the people you always wanted things to turn out ok for.

The phenomenon you are describing is real, I think, but happens more straightforwardly in comic-book/genre stories. Spike in Buffy, as noted, as well as Anya (Angel and Willow each go the other way for awhile). Maybe the Borg character 7of9 on whatever Star Trek iteration that was. Captain Barbossa in the later Pirates movies perhaps. There's something innately cool about bad guys. Villains are some of the fans' favorite characters, so there's a tendency for writers to keep them around and find a way to team them with the protagonist.

[Lucky]

(07-15-2015 09:17 AM)Ryre Wrote:  

Based on the shows I'm familiar with this is an oversimplification. These were morally complex shows; none of these characters were ever straightforwardly heroes or villains.

I am simplifying to an extent, and I'm more interested in the phenomenon.

Obviously Walter White or other characters from these shows could be considered villains, and therefore you could say that Mike Ehrmantraut made no change at all in his villainy. Within the confines of a series, we tend to view the lead characters as the heroes (or root for them more often then not), regardless of what they do.

That is why I added this part to my post:

Quote:

Some shows where a villain becomes good or partners with the protagonist

Quote:

How did Saul Goodman start out a villain? How did he become a hero? He started out a sleazy corrupt lawyer and stayed that way. Perhaps you could say that when Walt first met him, Saul was more criminal, but by the end Walt became more deeply criminal and willing to go further than Saul was, so that their relative positions changed.

Joey Quinn was always a pretty good cop who took money now and then and thought with his dick. Mike Erhmantraut was always a professional, a do-what-it-takes no-nonsense operator. Bubbles was always one of the more likable characters on The Wire, one of the people you always wanted things to turn out ok for.

Saul is listed because in the beginning Walt and Jesse viewed him as someone against them. They blindfolded Saul and threatened to kill him during their second meeting (though it was likely only an empty threat, this was early enough that Walt didn't know what he was doing).

Joey Quinn was suspicious of Dexter and Dexter spent much of season 5 having to throw Quinn off of his trail.

Mike Erhmantraut wired Walt's house and nearly killed Walt before Walt was able to persuade Jesse to kill Gale.

[General Stalin]

(07-15-2015 09:13 AM)Lucky Wrote:  

(07-15-2015 08:14 AM)whoishe Wrote:  

Not exactly "villain to hero", but Walton Goggins (Boyd Crowder) survived all 6 seasons of "Justified" and writers had to try really hard for viewers to dislike him. Despite him being a main adversary to lead character (Raylan Givens played by Timothy Olyphant).

I never watched Justified but I liked Goggins' performance on The Shield. His fucked up relationship with Vic Mackey was something that in the later seasons made it one of the best shows on TV.

The Shield is my favorite TV show of all time hands down. Lots of villains-turned-good throughout he entire series, and visa versa. Even the main characters ar all anti-heroes in their own right nd flop back and forth between love 'em/hate 'em. Walton's character was the underdog in the show and I have a fondness for underdogs so I always rooted for him.

[whoishe]

(07-15-2015 09:13 AM)Lucky Wrote:  

(07-15-2015 08:14 AM)whoishe Wrote:  

Not exactly "villain to hero", but Walton Goggins (Boyd Crowder) survived all 6 seasons of "Justified" and writers had to try really hard for viewers to dislike him. Despite him being a main adversary to lead character (Raylan Givens played by Timothy Olyphant).

I never watched Justified but I liked Goggins' performance on The Shield. His fucked up relationship with Vic Mackey was something that in the later seasons made it one of the best shows on TV.

Right, "The Shield" was my first experience with Goggins and he was phenomenal as Shane Vendrell. His verbal confrontations with Vic Mackey were epic, especially the one at the end of 3rd season.

But "Justified" was in my opinion even more satisfying ride for Goggins fans. It's worth mentioning that according to novel "Justified" was based for, Boyd Crowder should be dead after episode 1, but he got such a rare reviews after focus checks following pilot that author agreed for a switch to "seriously injured" to keep Crowder for the future.

[Eirykr]

The notable example on Game of Thrones would be Jaime Lannister.



Starts out as the swaggering, cocky asshole antagonist to Ned Stark, who at that point is set up to be the hero of the story. Is an attempted child-killer, among other things, due to the influence of his sister.

Later goes through rough shit, becomes mutilated, realizes he was a shitty person in a lot of ways and vows to be a better person.

[Rhyme or Reason]

The green ranger.

[Rutting Elephant]

Mulder and Scully's supervisors Skinner and Kersh are both total assholes at first but end up being good guys.

[Ryre]

(07-15-2015 12:40 PM)Eirykr Wrote:  

The notable example on Game of Thrones would be Jaime Lannister.



Starts out as the swaggering, cocky asshole antagonist to Ned Stark, who at that point is set up to be the hero of the story. Is an attempted child-killer, among other things, due to the influence of his sister.

Later goes through rough shit, becomes mutilated, realizes he was a shitty person in a lot of ways and vows to be a better person.

I reiterate that this is just a really oversimplified way of looking at things. Yes, we become more sympathetic to Jaime over time. But he is still the guy who threw an 8-year-old boy out a window. He also broke his vow as a Kingsguard...but he did it to kill a mad tyrant who was going to burn a city of people to death. Our feelings toward Jaime change as we learn more about him and see the pressures on him--first we saw him as a one-dimensional heavy, then things got more complicated. He also changes, but in subtle, human ways not easily captured by "he was a villain, now he's a hero."

Anyone watching Game of Thrones and looking for easy to pick black and white hats is doomed to disappointment. Stannis? He helps Jon and he's fighting the Lannisters and the Boltons. But he burns people alive and does most of what he does from an unshakable conviction that he, Stannis Baratheon, should be king.

Let's take some of the more clear-cut cases. The Hound: conscienceless killer for the Lannisters. But he saves Sansa from rape and ultimately has enough of the Lannisters. Besides, he grew up with The Mountain for an older brother. The Hound sees the world as an unforgiving place where you have to be strong and ruthless to survive. Given what Westeros is like, can you blame him? Is he evil or just realistic?[/i]

Or take Robb Stark. Because he marries for love rather than doing his political duty, hundreds of men loyal to him die. Is he a hero? How about Catelyn, his mother? She betrays the North out of selfish concern for her own children. Brienne? She has strong ideas of loyalty and honor, but those ideas cause her to serve Renly when Stannis has a better claim to the throne. Then she serves Catelyn and kills Stannis. Given who they are, can we say for sure that Brienne is a hero?

Approaching these characters with the question "who is the hero and who is the villain" is just really the wrong way to do it.

[GoldHawkStar]

(07-15-2015 07:16 AM)Lucky Wrote:  

Some shows where a villain becomes good or partners with the protagonist:

The Office- Ed Helms (Andy Bernard)

***SPOILERS***

How is that?

He was never against any of the protagonist characters. Unless you're talking about him and Dwight agreeing to dump Angela in one episode, which they remain enemies afterwards.

If anything, it's Dwight. In the first seasons, he only works for himself, is a dick to everyone, and is always trying to sabotage Jim (who is arguably the protagonist). But in the last season he grows to care about everyone in the office, becomes "partners in crime" with Jim, and even chooses him to be the best man at his wedding.

[Tytalus]

Sylar in the TV show "Heroes" starts out as THE villain of the series and becomes rehabilitated over time.

[tarquin]

Jim Lahey

[Chunnel]

***Wire Spoiler Alert***

I have a theory that Maurice Levy (lawyer always representing the drug dealers) intentionally leaves Marlo Stansfield's phone number in plain site for Herc to take and give to his old cop buddies. I can't back it up with a anything, but after awhile I feel Levy couldn't put up with the ruthlessness of the murders by Marlo's crew.

Cutty could be another one, but he's more of a success story than villain turned hero.

[TigerMandingo]

That surgeon from Scrubs who constantly made snarky comments and hated Zach Braff's character in the beginning. He switched gears later on and became pals with the main characters.


Also, his highness....his majesty...Prince Vegeta and the point at which he becomes a true hero:

DBZ should've ended here if you ask me.