[StrikeBack]

(01-05-2016 09:27 PM)redbeard Wrote:  

Finally got the chance to read through this whole thread. Epic breakdown.

Any advice for tall lifters?

Squatting is the only lift I have issues with. My bodyweight squat is fine, but when I add weight, butt wink seems to irritate my lower back. I substitute with Split Squats and Lunges, but still desire to squat.

How tall are you? What are you like, proportionally (leg to torso)? Do you have long or short femur? FYI if your femur length is 26% or less of your height, you have short femur, and vice versa.

I've been coaching a few tall guys: 6'8", 6'5" and 6'3". They all squat slightly differently, as they are different.

The 6'8" guy is all legs, he sits back more, and also needs a lot more mobility work because he's tight as a nun's.

The other two squat straight down in a more quad dominant style, as they have rather long torsos.

They are not all that different to the shorter guys with similar variations in leg:torso ratio. They just have longer ROM, way longer. It's quite fun watching the 6'8" guy squat or bench!

Do you have butt wink when squatting with just bodyweight? If you do then it's a mobility issue, and you may need to do some mobilisation like on your hip flexors.

If you only have it with a barbell, it might be the way you set up and have the bar on your back. Usually IME it's due to hyper-extending the back (arching too much) and neck at the top, so when the lifter gets to the bottom, the back flexes back the other way and produces "butt wink", and also weakens the support base for the weight of the bar.

[StrikeBack]

(01-11-2016 10:32 AM)VincentVinturi Wrote:  

@StrikeBack

I have a few questions if I may please.


1. I've been squatting high bar for about a year (which is how long I've been "seriously" lifting.)

I've recently started experimenting with the low bar position and I just can't for the life of me get the bar to stay in place.

I've played a lot with rolling the bar this way and that, raising my elbows, etc, etc

I may be wrong but my conclusion is that the musculature of my upper back doesn't create a sufficient 'shelf' for the bar to sit on even with my elbows lifted and my grip quite close together (as close as I can muster without putting my wrists into flexion or extension).

Is this something that you just figure out with time and/or can you recommend an exercise to expand the back?

I like high bar squats but I definitely feel like my quads do more work than the rest of the muscles involved and I'm hoping the low bar position can help me develop glutes, hams, etc.


2. If I'm not mistaken you described the Rippetoe style squat as unnatural.

Could you elaborate on that?

Sure mate

1. Get bigger lats and rear delts. That is the second easiest way!

The easiest way is written in Starting Strength: drink enough milk to make yourself thicker (fatter), then you'll have a bigger shelf and cushion for the low bar position.

It is pretty common for lighter weight powerlifters (male and female) to use a higher bar position because they don't have big enough back muscles for the bar shelf.

I have pretty thick lats and rear delts, and there is a line across my rear delts made by the barbell over many years of squatting.

It's a common mistake to think that low bar squat will help you develop more glutes and hams than high bar. High bar (and even front squat) activates the glutes the same as the low bar (which is not much at all), and none of them works hamstrings to any appreciable degree. There are research studies done on this, you should search Bret Contreras website if you're curious.

If you really like to develop hammies, I recommend stiff-legged deadlift or romanian deadlift or heavy KB swings or glute-ham raises.

If you like bigger glutes, barbell hip thrust and heavy KB swings should be in your routine.

Those same exercises should already be assistant ones to your squat and deadlift anyway.

2. It's very easy to see it for yourself.

What is the squat for, outside of the weight room?

You live in SEA, you've seen people squat down on the sidewalks to do stuff, or the squat toilet. Have you ever seen anyone squat like that with the Rippetoe style? How long do you think one will last, washing clothes / dishes, or eating foods in the Rippetoe style squat? The high bar ATG squat is much more natural, and you can relax into it, as you should be naturally capable of.

Squatting is a foundation movement for a good vertical jump and sprint from a dead stop.

Try squatting down high bar ATG style and jump up as high as possible. Now try the same with the Rippetoe style. Which one do you reckon helps you jump higher?

Watch sprinters in the position just before they leave the dead stop. They look like in the ATG squat position, just tilted about 45 degree forward. It also happens that all of them squat high bar ATG and their coaches don't take Rippetoe seriously.

The Rippetoe squat is one made for the weight room only, not outside of it.

[redbeard]

(01-12-2016 11:19 PM)StrikeBack Wrote:  

(01-05-2016 09:27 PM)redbeard Wrote:  

Finally got the chance to read through this whole thread. Epic breakdown.

Any advice for tall lifters?

Squatting is the only lift I have issues with. My bodyweight squat is fine, but when I add weight, butt wink seems to irritate my lower back. I substitute with Split Squats and Lunges, but still desire to squat.

How tall are you? What are you like, proportionally (leg to torso)? Do you have long or short femur? FYI if your femur length is 26% or less of your height, you have short femur, and vice versa.

I've been coaching a few tall guys: 6'8", 6'5" and 6'3". They all squat slightly differently, as they are different.

The 6'8" guy is all legs, he sits back more, and also needs a lot more mobility work because he's tight as a nun's.

The other two squat straight down in a more quad dominant style, as they have rather long torsos.

They are not all that different to the shorter guys with similar variations in leg:torso ratio. They just have longer ROM, way longer. It's quite fun watching the 6'8" guy squat or bench!

Do you have butt wink when squatting with just bodyweight? If you do then it's a mobility issue, and you may need to do some mobilisation like on your hip flexors.

My stats are - 6'2" (74") tall, 40" legs (54% of height), 20" femur (27% of height).

Butt wink happens when squatting bodyweight, but doesn't hurt until I do high rep or add weight.

I used to think it was hip mobility, so I started practicing asian squat. I can sit in the deep position no problem, but my back is rounded like this fella:

Quote:

If you only have it with a barbell, it might be the way you set up and have the bar on your back. Usually IME it's due to hyper-extending the back (arching too much) and neck at the top, so when the lifter gets to the bottom, the back flexes back the other way and produces "butt wink", and also weakens the support base for the weight of the bar.

n/a suggested that a weak lower back could be the culprit. In conjugation with the above quote, I'd say that's correct. Weak back causes the need for unnecessary arch, leading to butt wink.

[redbeard]

Update on my squatting situation - I started talking with the powerlifters at my gym, and between them, this thread, and the Cutting Squad, I heard a million variations. So, I played around and found form that works.

The first problem was in my approach. After reading the OP I was determined to do high volume ATG air squats and KB Goblet squats before loading a barbell. A tall lifter at my gym suggested I try with light weight on the bar, because even that changes mechanics, and it worked. I started with 10kg on each and started working into more and more reps.

Training air squats did not teach proper ab bracing and upper body contraction, and these two factors helped my squat tremendously.

Lower back strength wasn't the issue, I trained hyperextensions (shoutout n/a) and got back to training bridges, but hitting ATG caused rounding.

Mobility wasn't really an issue, my ankle dorsiflexion is fine and my hips are loose, but weak. Once I started squatting it's my rusty hips that feel soreness, more than my quads.

Here's what I found works:

-Low bar, thumbless grip
-I do a setup much like Blahino does here, keeps my upper back tight as a virgin. Slight bend at the hips, look straight.
-I bought weightlifting shoes. In my head I wanted to do things "paleo" and was against squat shoes, but pretty much every tall squatter recommends shoes. I bought a pair of Adi Powerlifts on Amazon for $80, and they have been a game changer.
-Stance is slightly wider than shoulder width. Lots of suggestions for tall squatters are a wide stance but it doesn't feel right.
-Feet are almost at 45 degrees
-Butt wink is minimal, but not painful at all. Upper back contraction and focusing on filling my gut with air keeps everything nice and tight. I recall Candito and others suggesting that slight butt wink is fine as long as it's not painful, and I agree. Last friday I squatted 5x5 and then did heavy deadlifts and my lower back felt great the next day.
-Depth is only a few inches below parallel, trying to get hips right below knees, like this, where my hamstrings touch calves. Any lower and it starts falling apart.
-Mostly pause squats, when bouncing out of the hole my knees track differently or do too much of a "good morning" squat..

My squat is still at Bernie Sanders poverty levels, but using the form above feels GREAT and I can feel my legs blowing up already.

[birthday cat]

I got my raw squat to double-bodyweight a few months ago and I owe a thank you to StrikeBack for this thread.

One thing I will add. In my opinion, guys doing programs like Starting Strength and StrongLifts should eventually incorporate high bar squats or front squats into their programming.

I see a lot of of guys doing only low bar squats to barely parallel. You will have to drop the weight for other squat variations but the depth you can hit on other squats might change your outlook on this exercise.

Another advantage of olympic style front squats is that they expose a lot of your imbalances and posture problems. Ass to grass front squats have become my favorite exercise in the gym.

[Robert High Hawk]

Just reading this thread now. Very interesting and useful information. Going to try again with squats. I stopped because of knee issues, but I see now that may have been entirely due to poor form.

That said, what are with the knee braces? Do they work? What exactly do they do? any recomendations? I have pretty skinny legs naturally.

Thanks for all the info!

[Vaun]

I've started squatting again 2-3x per week. I basically do a simple Starting Strength workout, with a calistentics warm up. For squatting, I am doing high bar ass to grass. My own thoughts, are that high bar low squats build better athleticism than low bar.

Warm up - 5x10 rounds of, air squats, pushups, pullups(5), deep dips, sit ups, back extensions, 24kg KB Swings.
Workout - 3x5 of backsquats(225lbs), stading press(135lbs), deadlift 5 reps 315lbs
End - back bridges and stretching

On top of this, I am doing jump rope workouts 3-4x per week, of 12x3 minute rounds, working on footwork, speed and power(double unders, fast high steps, etc. The jump roping is my cardio, I am using it as cardio and conditioning prep, and I try to do it fasted in the early mornings.

Sometimes I will do a 1x20 squat routine. It usually puts me on my ass. I love it.

Also doing occasional runs, snowboarding, and yoga classes.

Fitness goals this year is to get back to 20 pullups, 405 deadlift, a 22 minute 5k, to run a full 10K, to surf 15 times.

After I hit those goals, I want to go get my blue belt in BJJ at my local Gracie gym.

[Thomas Jackson]

(02-13-2017 08:56 PM)birthday cat Wrote:  

I got my raw squat to double-bodyweight a few months ago and I owe a thank you to StrikeBack for this thread.

One thing I will add. In my opinion, guys doing programs like Starting Strength and StrongLifts should eventually incorporate high bar squats or front squats into their programming.

I see a lot of of guys doing only low bar squats to barely parallel. You will have to drop the weight for other squat variations but the depth you can hit on other squats might change your outlook on this exercise.

Another advantage of olympic style front squats is that they expose a lot of your imbalances and posture problems. Ass to grass front squats have become my favorite exercise in the gym.

Completely agree with these. As I have gotten older front squats have become a staple. Much more naturual movement pattern and beats up the body less.

[churros]

I'm noticing that my hip joints are sore after squatting. Think it might have to do with spreading my legs too widely. Has anyone seen this problem before? It's a signal I'm doing something wrong, I presume...

[sterling_archer]

When we talk about squat stance width; is medium stance hip width, wide stance shoulder width (or more) and narrow stance is less than hip width? Despite StrikeBack saying most popular is narrow stance in IPF, in all videos I basically see wide stance!?

[Kieran]

I would consider hip width to be narrow, shoulder width medium, and outside shoulder width wide.