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Tesla Power Wall - Game changer?
05-03-2015, 06:29 PM
Sorry for derailing the thread. Thanks kbell for being in it back to topic.
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Tesla Power Wall - Game changer?
05-03-2015, 06:29 PM
As far as the OP, I think part of the appeal of the home battery pack is you charge it at night when it's cheaper. You can calculate the payback period given the difference in rates between night and day and when/how much you use power. I suspect in this case the payback is in decades. But if your local utility sucks then this is a quiet, fuel-free way to ride out an outage instead of using a generator. That's probably the main business case.
For the poster saying 5000 cycles is in the lab only, I think you're comparing apples and oranges. Unless what you're referring to is in vehicular batteries with the same chemistry, it's not that relevant. Laptop use cases are for 2-3 years, vehicles are ~10-20 years with say one pack replacement ($5500 for a nissan leaf for example). Cars control operating temperature and charge/discharge very differently than laptops.
Aluminum-ion can potentially have 3x the energy density of lithium because of the charge level on the positive ion. But it's early days for aluminum, we'll see.
I'm hoping this doesn't devolve into another love/hate thread on Elon Musk again, that's getting old.
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Tesla Power Wall - Game changer?
05-03-2015, 06:40 PM
Now if this technology isn't killed off we might get that aluminum upgrade in a future edition and than you might really see huge cost savings. Or perhaps another material would be discovered that's even better. I don't see why installation would be so expensive unless its a lot of in wall stuff is done.
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Tesla Power Wall - Game changer?
05-03-2015, 06:58 PM
The main problem here is the inefficiency of solar power. If I understand right, 10 solar panels (which would completely cover the roof of most houses) can produce about 2500 kWh of power a year, or 200 kWh a month. The average household in the US uses 950 kWh a month.
If you use this battery to store up solar-produced electricity during the day when you're at work, I'm not sure that it's going to give you enough power to make it through the evening. Also, even when you're at work you will be powering the AC or heat to some extent to keep your interior climate controlled while you're gone.
Maybe if you also hooked up a wind turbine, you might get enough power to allow you to stay off the grid on most days. But, the cost of all that equipment, the solar panels, wind turbine, and one or two of these batteries, is going to be something like $20-30K. It would take years and years, like decades, before you made this money back in not paying an electricity bill.
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Tesla Power Wall - Game changer?
05-03-2015, 07:07 PM
Quote: (05-03-2015 05:10 PM)Old Fritz Wrote:
Quote: (05-03-2015 05:04 PM)Repo Wrote:
H As it stands now, I believe he has paid every loan back or is actively paying the loans back with interest, which actually benefits taxpayers.
This. For some reason people still like to bring the loan he took or the fact that a lot of taxpayer money goes towards his companies.
I have no problem with my taxpayer money going towards Spacex. I don't see how anyone could not support space exploration. Unless they are ignorant or short sighted.
With Tesla motors, I believe he borrowed well over 400 billion dollars. However, he paid all of this back several years early.
I think it is in reference to the 2008 bailout of the auto companies, where GM got huge subsidies to not go bankrupt too, so you can't really complain about Tesla getting bailed out (they didn't get bailed out, it was a loan for expansion and a new facility; and they paid back every dollar with interest already).
"Money over bitches, nigga stick to the script." - Jay-Z
They gonna love me for my ambition.
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Tesla Power Wall - Game changer?
05-03-2015, 07:16 PM
Quote: (05-03-2015 06:58 PM)Carlos100 Wrote:
The main problem here is the inefficiency of solar power. If I understand right, 10 solar panels (which would completely cover the roof of most houses) can produce about 2500 kWh of power a year, or 200 kWh a month. The average household in the US uses 950 kWh a month.
If you use this battery to store up solar-produced electricity during the day when you're at work, I'm not sure that it's going to give you enough power to make it through the evening. Also, even when you're at work you will be powering the AC or heat to some extent to keep your interior climate controlled while you're gone.
Maybe if you also hooked up a wind turbine, you might get enough power to allow you to stay off the grid on most days. But, the cost of all that equipment, the solar panels, wind turbine, and one or two of these batteries, is going to be something like $20-30K. It would take years and years, like decades, before you made this money back in not paying an electricity bill.
As all technology, and with Moore's law, the technology is becoming exponentially more efficient, theres a company out of Spain that has developed a single bulb that directs all light into a much smaller space for conversion to electric energy. Solar energy is something that has to be pushed to eliminate the use of fossil fuels and create a greener planet tomorrow. The issue is with making it mainstream, which his companies are currently doing, and showing people that it is a viable way to power their homes, cars; and hell smartphones without the use of coal, oil, or natural gas. Theres a huge sector not being filled by solar in the world's energy market.
"Money over bitches, nigga stick to the script." - Jay-Z
They gonna love me for my ambition.
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Tesla Power Wall - Game changer?
05-03-2015, 07:38 PM
Quote: (05-03-2015 07:33 PM)Darius Wrote:
Quote: (05-03-2015 07:16 PM)TheFinalEpic Wrote:
The issue is with making it mainstream, which his companies are currently doing, and showing people that it is a viable way to power their homes, cars; and hell smartphones without the use of coal, oil, or natural gas. Theres a huge sector not being filled by solar in the world's energy market.
What do you think powers the machines and factories that make these "green" products?
Please Inform me. Because I'm sure that the end impact of the sum of manufacturing and utilizing the products is far less than that of not producing them in the first place.
And with regard to the "Well he got bailed out so I should get bailed out" America would be absolutely fucked if the bailouts didn't happen. I don't condone them, but the largest investment firms in the world would have been under water, millions would've lost investments and savings, and there would be a massive revolution. Now with regards to the "bailout" which was more of a loan to expand production, they've already paid it back, it's a moot point.
"Money over bitches, nigga stick to the script." - Jay-Z
They gonna love me for my ambition.
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Tesla Power Wall - Game changer?
05-03-2015, 07:46 PM
Also, peak output is 2kw - That's not even enough to power a hair dryer and microwave together. Forget about air conditioning unless you wanted to buy 5 of these to string together.
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Tesla Power Wall - Game changer?
05-03-2015, 08:16 PM
Quote: (05-03-2015 08:08 PM)Darius Wrote:
Really? How sure? Have you done the calculations yourself?
Have you? You were making the claims, thus I was looking for something that would tell me definitively that the energy and resources used to produce these environmentally friendly components are (in the long term) more harmful than using traditional fossil fuels. And don't say "Prius Batteries".
Quote:Quote:
We are talking about grants that are built into the companies economic model. Without a constant supply of government money through grants, the company goes bankrupt. In essence the company is financially insolvent. Without a constant supply of taxpayer money it will die.
I think you're forgetting they're publicly traded and have a market cap just shy of $28.6bil.
"Money over bitches, nigga stick to the script." - Jay-Z
They gonna love me for my ambition.