[Beowulf]

Hello,

I'm a current applicant to USMC OCS, and I was wondering, since we have a number of Marine Corps officers present on the forum, if those of you who have served would be willing to answer a few questions of mine regarding OCS. Specifically, they have to do with Aviation and ground contracts and the PLC program. If there are those of you who are willing to help a potential candidate, please shoot me a PM or respond here and I would be most grateful. Thanks in advance.

[TonySandos]

When you get back from OCS immediately drop a datasheet.

[Quintus Curtius]

What do you want to know? What's your questions?

[Quintus Curtius]

(01-31-2015 08:13 PM)Quintus Curtius Wrote:  

What do you want to know? What's your questions?

^ This. I am a former USMC aviator.

[Beowulf]

My questions,

1. My OSO says that my chances for being accepted in to OCS are best if I enter as an Aviation contract, but then put in a request switch to Ground after being accepted. He says he can guarantee that I will be able to switch over to Ground. Can you guys confirm that I can indeed do this?, and that he is not trying to pull a fast one on me and make me stuck with a contract I don't desire for 8 years. Although if aviation was my only way in, I would do it. It's not that I don't trust him, rather that I'd just like additional verification. He acknowledges that its "gaming" the system, but also it will give me the best chances, (+60% chance vs low 30-40% for ground) especially if I raise my PFT from 270~ to 280~ (I'm shooting for 300 anyways though).

2. I understand as America is scaling back its wars, the Corps is adopting a more peacetime posture. What is a peacetime Corps like in terms of deployments, MOS selection, and general everyday life as an officer?

3. Steve, you said you're an aviatior, I remember reading from an article that Quintus was something in the field, something along the lines of infantry or recon. I'm personally most interested in an in-the-field MOS such as infantry, intel, or the new HUMINT one. I've read each MOS' official Marine Corps description,. Do either of you had had some in depth knowledge about either of these branches.

[Aliblahba]

(02-01-2015 01:24 AM)1818Steve Wrote:  

(01-31-2015 08:13 PM)Quintus Curtius Wrote:  

What do you want to know? What's your questions?

^ This. I am a former USMC aviator.

These guys can probably answer all your technical questions. However, if you have any on how to fight and fuck in the long-standing Marine Corps tradition, send those questions my way. Semper Fi!

[Quintus Curtius]

(02-01-2015 09:28 AM)Beowulf Wrote:  

My questions,

1. My OSO says that my chances for being accepted in to OCS are best if I enter as an Aviation contract, but then put in a request switch to Ground after being accepted. He says he can guarantee that I will be able to switch over to Ground. Can you guys confirm that I can indeed do this?, and that he is not trying to pull a fast one on me and make me stuck with a contract I don't desire for 8 years. Although if aviation was my only way in, I would do it. It's not that I don't trust him, rather that I'd just like additional verification. He acknowledges that its "gaming" the system, but also it will give me the best chances, (+60% chance vs low 30-40% for ground) especially if I raise my PFT from 270~ to 280~ (I'm shooting for 300 anyways though).

2. I understand as America is scaling back its wars, the Corps is adopting a more peacetime posture. What is a peacetime Corps like in terms of deployments, MOS selection, and general everyday life as an officer?

3. Steve, you said you're an aviatior, I remember reading from an article that Quintus was something in the field, something along the lines of infantry or recon. I'm personally most interested in an in-the-field MOS such as infantry, intel, or the new HUMINT one. I've read each MOS' official Marine Corps description,. Do either of you had had some in depth knowledge about either of these branches.

Beowulf:

Good questions. My thoughts.

Be wary of these recruiters and the things they say. If it isn't in writing BEFORE you're on your way to OCS, then you can't trust it. Period.

On the other hand, some of my information might be out of date. I went through OCS in 1989 and was on active duty from 1990 to 1994, then in the reserves for some years after that. The administrative structure of organizations can change a lot in a few years.

So, is he right that you can make a lateral move from the air wing to ground?

Yes, it can be done. I did it myself. At TBS I wanted to get the MOS of intelligence (02), but I was told by the instructors that intel was a "specialized" or "restricted" MOS. This was bullshit, but that's what they said. So I had to go into the aviation logistics field at first, and then I had to make a "lat move" (lateral move) over to the ground intel field.

I was lucky, but it was blind luck. Intel guys in the Marine Corps are attached to both ground and air units. We have to do everything they do. I was attached to ground units at Camp Lejeune: 2nd Bn, 10th Marines (an artillery unit), and also 2nd Recon Bn. (a recon unit). Both of these are at Lejeune. But we deployed everywhere.

And if you're with the ground units, get ready to suck it up, because they're going to deploy your ass whenever and wherever they want.

As for getting through OCS, and how to do it, I can give you a whole rundown. You'd better be in fucking great shape. And I mean, for real. The emphasis should be on endurance and upper body strength. Here at the RVF, everybody talks about weightlifting, but for OCS, you need to know how to run, run, run. If you can max the PFT, you are doing well.

I maxed it. I can still run 3 miles in close to 18 minutes, and do 20 dead hang pullups with minimal "kip", and 80 situps in 2 minutes. And I'm 46 years old.

I've heard the PFT has changed a little since the 1990s. But the general idea is the same.

It's all about the "harassment package" with OCS with the USMC. That's it. Sleep deprivation, breaking you down, the whole 9 yards. Try to max the PFT before you go there, but you need to know all that other stuff as well: general orders, squad tactics, map reading, leadership traits and principles, close-order drill, passing inspections, running with boots & Alice pack, etc.

It still feels like yesterday.

But I will tell you that even though something can be done, it doesn't mean that it will be done. The Marine Corps has a long tradition of fucking with people (welcome aboard!), and they take pride in it. All of us are a little bit sadistic, a little bit twisted. And you will be, too.

So, try to get guarantees if you can about all this lateral move stuff they are telling you. If not, it's a roll of the dice. You'll submit your AA form (administrative action) and pray to the gods. My personal opinion about the military bureaucracy is that you shouldn't try to out-think it. Every time I tried to ask for something, I got denied. But when I just acted like I didn't care, things went well. It's weird how that works, but it's true.

But take everything guys say with a grain of salt. Talk to some of the other USMC guys here, posting in this thread. 1818Steve and Aliblabla can help you out also. Looks like Steve was an aviator (either helos, C-130s, or jets) and Aliblaba paid his dues in Afghanistan.

So, lot of combined experience here.

You can also PM me anytime.

[jimmypa]

I wasn't an officer, nor was I in the wing, but I spent 4 yrs in the Marine Corps infantry. If you're planning to go the grunt route I can probably help with general questions.

As Quintus Curtis already said, recruiters are full of shit so make sure to get anything you want in writing before you ship out.

[Quintus Curtius]

OK, Beowulf. You got me fired up tonight so I'm going to give you some more guidance on OCS survival, whether you want it or not.

Here is my checklist.

1. Remember that the purpose of OCS is not to teach you anything. You're already expected to know most of the basics BEFORE you get there. Its purpose is to "screen and evaluate" potential officers. Translating that from USMC-speak means this: We're going to fuck with you until we who will wash out.

That's it. The purpose of OCS is to see who can be weeded out. It's going to be 8 weeks of torture and harassment. Suck it up.

2. The minute you put your foot on that parade deck as you step off the bus or get out of your car, they will be fucking with you. They are going to be in your face.

In my day there were two types of instructors:

The platoon sergeant (wore a black patent leather belt over his cammies)
The sergeant instructor (wore a green web belt over his cammies).

You never forget your instructors. I still remember their names, even after all these years.

Gunny McReady (Platoon Sergeant): A huge, muscled, bald white guy from Alabama. He was old school USMC. Jesus, this guy still scares me, after all this time.

SSgt Figueroa: A Puerto Rican maniac.

This type of stuff (harassment) never bothered me. I can take abuse. I can take anything.

3. I'm serious about you being in the best running shape of your life. Why? Because that is the key to everything. Weightlifting isn't going to do much for you there. Not really. Expect your run times to be a lot slower at first when you first hit Quantico. It's just because it's very, very humid there. I was coming from Boston when I went there. And it was in the summer.

In my inventory PFT, I couldn't believe how slow my run time was at first. And I usually had no problem at all. It's just the humidity at first. Takes some time to get used to.

4. Foot care is key, key, key. You don't want to have problems with your feet, and by this I mean blisters. You won't be able to last on the humps (marches) and they will launch your ass out or (if you're lucky and they like you) recycle you.

You need to learn how to use Moleskin. I used to even put it on my lower back to protect it when we went on runs with the M16 slung over our backs.

5. You need to know how to handle squads and fire-teams in the field. That means you need to know:

Your hand signals
Which type of formation is best (wedge, etc.)
How to keep control of your people

Instructors are looking for leadership traits and actions. Always keep your cool. Always.

6. Some of the most important graded events are the o-courses (obstacle courses), handling units in the field, Reac course, combat course, land nav, etc. You need to know your stuff as much as you can. Remember, things are magnified under stress. And you're going to be under a lot of stress. The better you know things before, the less pain you will endure later.

7. Inspections are not a huge graded event, but they do seem to suck up a lot of time, especially at night when you need sleep. You need to learn all those little tricks and techniques to get by inspections.

Little things matter a lot, like removing IPs from your cammies fast (IPs, for those who don't know, are "Irish pennants", those little threads that dangle off of uniforms). I just remember that fucking inspections used to really suck. I hated them. They took up a lot of time at night, when you need sleep. But that's how it goes.

Like, keeping a special set of stuff that you lay out just for inspections.
Brasso-ed belt buckles
Stenciled towels that are not stained

I got ripped into one time during an inspection for having a towel on my rack that was stained. I can laugh about it now, but at that time...not so funny.

8. Again, remember that OCS is not to teach you anything. That's what TBS is for. OCS is to fuck with you.

Officer training is a bit different from the training of enlisted men, which happens at Parris Island or San Diego. One of the focuses of enlisted training is to weld together a group and teach them how to act as part of a unit. Enlisted men are not expected to know anything when they get to boot camp.

This is not really one of the focuses at OCS. You are already expected to know most of the stuff. Candidates are coming there from NROTC programs, from the Naval Academy, or from different PLC programs. They expect you to know most of the stuff already. The purpose is to put "candidates" under constant stress for weeks on end and see who can handle it, and who cannot.

9. You will also get "peer eval-ed", which is where everybody in the platoon can "fuck his buddy" by writing up a list of things they don't like about him. Learn to pay little mind to this type of bullshit. None of those guys knows shit about what it's like to be in the fleet, any more than you do.

A lot of guys talk a lot of shit. In the end, it doesn't amount to dry shit. Just quietly do your thing, and prepare thoroughly.

The bastards won't even see you coming. That's the way to be.

10. Learn how to lie low and stay off the skyline. If one of those instructors doesn't like you, they can make your life hell. I've seen it happen to a couple other guys who were basically all right, but just didn't know how to act. The best way to be at OCS is to be competent, slightly invisible, and a team player.

Nobody likes a malingerer, a whiner, or a fuckhead who doesn't know his shit.

11. If you wear prescription lenses, make sure you bring a couple spares with you. They will get torn up, fast. Plastic is the best, of course. And you want them to be frames that STAY ON YOUR FUCKING FACE when you run or are going over the Tarzan Course, the Quigley, or whatever.

12. Learn how to run long distances with boots. You need to practice doing long runs (5-7 miles) running in boots. I am very serious about this. I used to run around Boston Common with one of my buddies with cammies and boots, and it was the best prep I did. Ah, those days! Time goes by fast, guys. I'm glad I did what I did in my life.

Tip on boots: get a very, very good insole for them. One of those high-tech gel insoles. You want your legs and feet to stay in good shape, so make sure you do this.

Also: make SURE your boots are broken-in well before you get to OCS.

13. Q Tips. I remember going through these like crazy. You will use them for everything. Bring a huge supply. Get the hard, cheap ones. They hold up better in cleaning.

14. Drinking water. Heat exhaustion is a big thing at OCS and TBS. You need to be drinking all the time. If your piss is clear, you're OK. If it is yellow, drink more. I am serious. If you go down for heatstroke or heat exhaustion, the instructors will draw a big red "X" on your t-shirt and you will be a marked man.

15. Memorize all your stuff you need to know: leadership traits and principles, general orders, hand and arm signals, ranks, close order drill stuff, all that stuff.


That's about all I can think of for now.

Hit me up if you want more info. If I think of more stuff, I'll post it here.

You'll do fine. Keep going, no matter what happens. Semper Fi.

This will be the most memorable experience of your life. You are about to embark on the greatest adventure of all.




.

[Quintus Curtius]

(02-01-2015 09:28 AM)Beowulf Wrote:  

My questions,

1. My OSO says that my chances for being accepted in to OCS are best if I enter as an Aviation contract, but then put in a request switch to Ground after being accepted. He says he can guarantee that I will be able to switch over to Ground. Can you guys confirm that I can indeed do this?, and that he is not trying to pull a fast one on me and make me stuck with a contract I don't desire for 8 years. Although if aviation was my only way in, I would do it. It's not that I don't trust him, rather that I'd just like additional verification. He acknowledges that its "gaming" the system, but also it will give me the best chances, (+60% chance vs low 30-40% for ground) especially if I raise my PFT from 270~ to 280~ (I'm shooting for 300 anyways though).

2. I understand as America is scaling back its wars, the Corps is adopting a more peacetime posture. What is a peacetime Corps like in terms of deployments, MOS selection, and general everyday life as an officer?

3. Steve, you said you're an aviatior, I remember reading from an article that Quintus was something in the field, something along the lines of infantry or recon. I'm personally most interested in an in-the-field MOS such as infantry, intel, or the new HUMINT one. I've read each MOS' official Marine Corps description,. Do either of you had had some in depth knowledge about either of these branches.

1. That is a tough one. I am not inclined to advise you to trust the OSO. Go with your gut, I guess. You had better check on that aviation contract, because I am pretty sure it will take you way past 8 years. Those contracts used to be written as "X years after winging", and it will 2+ years to get your wings.

2. I was in the USMC in peacetime, from 1983 to 1989. I had an old aviation contract which only obligated me for 4 years after winging. I flew the CH-46E helicopter which was a Vietnam era tandem rotor troop transport bird, the backbone of Marine Corps aviation because in the USMC it all revolves around infantry. The CH-46 has been replaced by the MV-22 Osprey, the tilt rotor.

In peacetime, deployments will tend to be more regular and reasonable. The deployment schedules that were used in Iraq and Afghanistan were brutal. I was stationed at MC Air Station New River, across the river from Camp LeJeune in North Carolina. We did various odds and ends deployments for training, did some Combined Arms Exercises in 29 Palms California, and did 6 month deployments to the Mediterranean with a Marine Expeditionary Unit, aboard a helicopter carrier.

Back then, officers from the Naval Academy and the Navy ROTC Scholarship program were commissioned with a Regular commission while the PLC (program you are looking at, I think) got a Reserve commission. It was very difficult for a reserve officer to stay on active duty past the original contract.

General everyday life for an aviator is pretty mellow when not deployed. It is still the Marine Corps but you didn't have that rigid tense structure that is prevalent on the ground side. Our enlisted men were pretty much the cream of the crop mentally, aircrewmen and technical guys. Crew coordination requires communication and teamwork so things are pretty amiable. First Lieutenants and Captains were on a first-name basis for example, and I don't think that happens much in ground units. Officer - enlisted was never first-name, but relationships were loose and comfortable, never based upon intimidation.

3. I only know about life in the infantry to the extent that they trained us all to be infantrymen, to some extent at The Basic School (a 6 month course which all newly commissioned Marine Corps officers attend at Quantico, VA).

One piece of advice I will give you is that you shouldn't ever get sentimental about the Marine Corps. There is a legitimate air of toughness and competence about it, and people enjoy being a part of that, but don't ever think that the USMC gives a fuck about you beyond the fact that you are a military asset, just like a rifle, a tank, or a bullet.

[Beowulf]

It looks like I have a lot to process. But thank you all so much for the responses and feedback. I really appreciate every nugget of information you can give. I will be able to learn a lot from you guys. There's some tough shit I need to accept.

Both of you, Quintus and Steve, have advised me not to trust the OSO or OSA until I see shit in writing, and while I felt my Staff Sergeant and OSO are stand-up guys, I think I'm now going to grill them for the switch to ground application until I see it in my hands so I can apply for it after/during OCS. Additionally I'm going to ask them for a copy of the aviation contract for me to comb through extensively so I know what I may be getting myself into. (Thanks for pointing out the "before/after winging" part Steve! I'd rather not get trapped into 10+ years). Thankfully, if I get in I'd be going to PLC Sophomores for 6 weeks then Junior summer for 6 more I'd have plenty of time to think over this switch to ground contract and would have the ability to walk if I felt I was getting bamboozled. I think I'll also ping the question out to some other military/Marine forums on the web as well. The next board is in March and there is one more left in May, so I'm going to have to reach a decision pretty damn soon.

I've been breaking down my workouts and reshaping them along my more necessary aspects of improvement. My PFT is right now at around, 90-95~ Crunches in 2 min (need 100) which shouldn't be hard, 20+ pullups which are easy since I'm a small guy, and an admittedly crappy run time of~21:00 which I'm going to be working the most on. Some other OCS candidates have advised me to run everyday, but not necessarily in long amounts. They talk a lot about interval training as a massive help. I hate running, but fuckit, that's what it takes, so I'll do it.

Time for some Grunt/Enlisted/everyone else who wants to answer love. Here are my questions. Thanks again for taking the time to answer!

1. Who are the best field officers you have seen? What are they like in attitude, bearing, and general personality? What do you look for in an officer?

2. Conversely, the worst?

3. Obviously combat is hell and incredibly stressful. As a wannabe ground contract, this is something I may end up partaking in. For those of you who have experienced it, how do you cope with the after-effects and keep from being consumed by your experiences? (If any of this is too personal, please feel free to decline to answer).

4. How does the field/grunt experience affect your relations with family and civilians, as well as POG's? Do you find them intolerable and incapable of understanding, or jus t plain ignorant?

5. What is the grunt experience like? I apologize for the broadness of this question, but I don't know another way of asking it. I've watched "The Pacific" and "Generation Kill", both of which I thought were good, but then again I've never experienced combat, so I wouldn't be able to judge. I think I gained at least a small bit of understanding of the infantry mind, however.

[Quintus Curtius]

Beowulf:

I'll try to answer the questions you asked that I'm competent to answer.

In terms of good and bad leaders, every young lieutenant worries about doing well. It's natural and good that you should be concerned. But like anything in life, it takes time and there is a learning curve. Nobody expects you to be an expert immediately.

The best officers are the ones who knew their jobs inside and out, radiated confidence, never asked anything of their guys that they didn't do themselves, cared about the mission and their men, were not careerist pricks, and stood up for their people (even against other COs.) There is also an indescribable element of charisma, but that's hard to learn.

Don't worry about all that right now. Focus on the job at hand. Take care of one day, one week, one month, and things will fall into place. This is a marathon, not a sprint.

These "leadership traits and principles" are the best checklist I can really think of. Nobody has really improved on this:

http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/usmc...ership.pdf

As for combat stuff, I was never in combat. I was in deployed environments all over the place, served overseas, and received hostile fire pay for being in Bosnia, but I was not in combat.

So I can't speak about that subject with first-hand knowledge, and would never attempt to.

.

[Quintus Curtius]

(02-02-2015 02:14 PM)Beowulf Wrote:  

Time for some Grunt/Enlisted/everyone else who wants to answer love. Here are my questions. Thanks again for taking the time to answer!

1. Who are the best field officers you have seen? What are they like in attitude, bearing, and general personality? What do you look for in an officer?

2. Conversely, the worst?

3. Obviously combat is hell and incredibly stressful. As a wannabe ground contract, this is something I may end up partaking in. For those of you who have experienced it, how do you cope with the after-effects and keep from being consumed by your experiences? (If any of this is too personal, please feel free to decline to answer).

1. The best officers project confidence, intelligence, competence, and calmness. They lead by example. They rarely even raise their voices and they never lose their temper. They take care of their troops and officers. That, in turn takes care of their careers.

2. The worst are the worrywarts who can't control their emotions. Then there are the careerists who care about nothing but their own career advancement.

3. As I mentioned before, I was in the fleet in peacetime, between Beirut and the first Gulf War so take this for what it is worth. I still live in an area with many retired and former Marines, so I have many combat veteran friends. The ones who talk about combat are often bullshitters who never experienced it. The ones who experienced it will never talk about it, this ranges from WW2 vets, Korean War vets, Vietnam vets, up to and including the recent wars.

At the time I was in, I was ready to roll but nothing ever happened. Honestly, I felt a little bit shortchanged. As I have gotten older I am glad that I never had to kill.

[Beowulf]

I realize that it's been a while since I last responded; however, I was busy getting in touch with my OSO. I really love the responses; I find them incredibly eye opening and valuable. I have been assured that going Air-contract and then switching won't affect my MOS selection at TBS because OCS and TBS are completely separate entities. I think what they may be trying to do is give me exposure to Air and a guaranteed way in hoping I will stay Air to fill more aviation slots since there is a current shortage apparently.

This means I'm going to have to study hard for the ASTB-E to make the deadline for the next board in March. Steve, how long did it take you to prepare for the ASTB-E, and what did you do to prepare (besides studying your ass off)?

Thanks again! I'll keep you all posted on my progress.

[1818Steve]

I had to google it to see what the ASTB-E is. I took a test along with a large group of 2nd Class Midshipmen on the Summer Cruise between my Sophomore and Junior years in college. I think that test was a predecessor of the ASTB-E. I didn't study for it, and in fact did not know that I would be taking it until the day of the test.

[RIslander]

This forum is a wealth of knowledge. Solid datasheet from Quintus.