[Krusyos]

Midwest
http://www.ihr.org/books/hoggan/A3.html

This article is properly sourced.

I don't want another suspension so that's it for me.

[Deluge]

^"The Institute for Historical Review (IHR), founded in 1978, is an organization primarily devoted to publishing and promoting books and essays that deny established facts concerning the Nazi genocide of Jews. It is considered by many scholars as the world's leading Holocaust denial organization. Critics have accused the Institute of antisemitism and having links to neo-Nazi organizations."

There were ~9 million Jews in Europe before WW2, and ~3 million after. In Poland alone the Jewish population went from 3.3 million to 300,00, after which those 300,000 emigrated to Israel and the West. Where did those missing 3 million go? My city's Jewish community is primarily made up of Polish Holocaust survivors and has the highest density of Holocaust survivors anywhere outside of Israel. I'm sure these old Jewish grandparents have just been lying to everyone about having their families wiped out. Go talk to some Holocaust survivors and hear their stories first hand while you still can.

[berserk]

(01-29-2015 05:19 PM)Cunnilinguist Wrote:  

Heads up: half-Jewish poster here.

First off, the OP's post is like something straight out of Yahoo News - emotional, dramatic, click-bait type shit. Get a grip, dude.

Second, and this is going to sound controversial, but I am of the opinion that Jews as a group need to move on from the Holocaust. Enough with the memorials, the remembrances, the cheesy Eli Wiesel novels etc. The world is now fully aware of what happened and there's no need to constantly remind others and yourselves of the tragedy. I agree with Finkelstein that it is being used now for political ends and that shit needs to stop. Like Doug Stanhope said, if it wasn't for Hitler the History Channel would be out of business.

Now, a lot of people get their panties in a twist when I mention this because to Jews this issue is so off-limits and so sacred that it completely clouds their judgment. The Holocaust is basically a huge part of the Jewish identity now and that is a negative development. It is forever etched into the Jewish psyche, for better or worse (for worse IMO). The problem with Holocaust remembrance is simple: it whips jews into a frenzy and makes them prone to paranoia. Organizations like the ADL, SPLC are constantly coming up with ludicrous stats of how "Anti-Semitism is on the rise". And by that, they mean some 17-year olds who paint swastikas on Jewish graves. Oh yea, real scary shit. The paranoia in turn causes Israel to lash out against the Palestinians, further alienating world opinion and dwindling sympathy for the Jews down to zero. It's sort of a vicious cycle. The creation of Israel was a big mistake if you ask me , but that's another topic. Jews have it way better in the US.

This topic is obviously going to divide a lot of people but hopefully I've made some sense here.

P.S.: I'd love to have a conversation with the average Jewish, Russia-hating neo-con and remind him that it was the Soviet Union that liberated Auschwitz.

Nailed it.

Holocaust is a defacto pseudo-religion. Not only for jews but for a lot of post war boomers who substituted the sacrifice of Christ with the sacrifice of the Jews.

The basic tenant is that Holocaust is the greatest crime comitted ever, the baseline for evil, never seen equal - by far. And that the jews are an eternally innocent, eternally good and just people, eternally persecuted due to no fault of their own.

People need religion and all these so called secularists don't understand they've just swapped one sacrificial myth (Christ/Jews) with one Resurrection myth (from the literal ashes rises Israel).

But for the jews own sake, it would be good to let go of the Holocaust as their main source of idententity.

The consequence of constant religious use of it, is to create a state of paranoia, hate and fear among jews of Europeans. This leads more to embrace the kind of destructive leftist policies which in the end open the floodgates to the people who actually want to kill them.

Personally, I also think harping on about the uniqueness of the Holocaust will do more harm than good. Peoples simply become desensitized. It's like those public 'don't do drugs' campaigns. No one barely listens anymore.

Give it a rest. We're on generation 3 after WW2 in Europe. All that's being created is resentment for being burdened with some sin the current generation had nothing to do with.

[scorpion]

(01-29-2015 08:32 PM)MidWest Wrote:  

(01-29-2015 07:35 PM)Krusyos Wrote:  

Be merciful, Tuthmosis and indulge me a holocaust post...

To be blunt, the 6 million is a gross exaggeration, bordering on a lie. A fourth grade student could perform the math necessary to disprove the claim that 6 million were directly murdered by a cartoonish villain. If, indeed Auschwitz was constructed as a death camp, A spastic retard must have designed it, it's so inefficient,

Prove it then! What is the "real" number?

You said a fourth grader can perform the math. Prove it!

Well, you can start with the official plaques on display at Auschwitz, which have changed over the years. Despite this change, however, the 6 million figure, (based on testimony extracted via torture at Nuremberg) somehow remains intact to this day.

[scorpion]

(01-29-2015 09:06 PM)Deluge Wrote:  

My city's Jewish community is primarily made up of Polish Holocaust survivors and has the highest density of Holocaust survivors anywhere outside of Israel. I'm sure these old Jewish grandparents have just been lying to everyone about having their families wiped out. Go talk to some Holocaust survivors and hear their stories first hand while you still can.

Has it ever struck you as more than a little odd that so many people miraculously survived an industrial-scale genocide operation undertaken by the most ruthless and efficient group of people who ever lived?

I mean, we're sitting here 70 years later and you're telling me that so many people survived this thing that they make up the majority of your city's Jewish community?

How did these people survive if the Nazis were trying to exterminate them? If they were prisoners in death camps, why weren't they killed?

This is one of the most obvious problems with the Holocaust narrative: if the Nazis really were trying to destroy the Jews, to the extent that they constructed death camps explicitly for this purpose, then how were there so many survivors? How did anyone see the inside of a death camp and come out alive?

Here's a "Holocaust survivor" who claims she survived the gas chamber because water miraculously came out of the showerheads rather than poison gas.

What's more likely: the Nazis had a gas chamber that malfunctioned so badly water somehow came out, or this woman (and presumably hundreds of thousands of others) walked into a shower room after having heard hysterical rumors about gas chambers while being transported? After being showered and not gassed, they then spread the miraculous story of how they "survived" the non-existent gas chamber that was actually a shower all along.

[TigerMandingo]

(01-29-2015 09:06 PM)Deluge Wrote:  

^"The Institute for Historical Review (IHR), founded in 1978, is an organization primarily devoted to publishing and promoting books and essays that deny established facts concerning the Nazi genocide of Jews. It is considered by many scholars as the world's leading Holocaust denial organization. Critics have accused the Institute of antisemitism and having links to neo-Nazi organizations."

There were ~9 million Jews in Europe before WW2, and ~3 million after. In Poland alone the Jewish population went from 3.3 million to 300,00, after which those 300,000 emigrated to Israel and the West. Where did those missing 3 million go? My city's Jewish community is primarily made up of Polish Holocaust survivors and has the highest density of Holocaust survivors anywhere outside of Israel. I'm sure these old Jewish grandparents have just been lying to everyone about having their families wiped out. Go talk to some Holocaust survivors and hear their stories first hand while you still can.

Raul Hilberg, an eminent Holocaust scholar, estimated the death toll at 5.1 million in The Destruction of European Jewry, which is kind of like the Bible of Holocaust literature. So the "6 million dead" is most likely questionable at best.

[Deluge]

@scorpion 90% of Poland's Jews dying seems like a pretty thorough job to me, especially considering they didn't get the chance to finish it. Other countries with major Jewish populations weren't under Germany's direct control during the war (i.e Vichy France or Ukraine) so the death tolls there were much lower.

Most Holocaust survivors were either liberated from concentration camps at the end of the war, or were never actually caught by the Nazi's. I met one survivor who as a teenage girl got separated from her family during the war, fled Poland by pretending to be German (like many Polish Jews she spoke German) and eventually ended up on one of the refugee boats the British were trying to keep out of their Mandate of Palestine. She later found out that every single member of her family (basically her entire village) but her had been exterminated at Treblinka. I know another Jew whose grandparents met in a refugee camp after the war, and were both the last members of their families left alive.

Also, there is still historical debate of how many millions of ethnic Germans who were evicted from Eastern Europe and Germany's former Eastern Territories after the war ended. They revised the number of expellees from 15 million down to 12 million but there's still room for interpretation. And most of these people actually survived (it's estimated 1/4 of ethnic Germans today have an expellee ancestor). Now imagine how difficult it must have beeen to count the number of people who actually died in Holocaust in the immediate aftermath of the war. The initial figures were bound to revised. One reason there is much certainty about 6 million dead is because we know roughly how many Jews there were in Europe before and after the war.

[MidWest]

(01-29-2015 09:06 PM)Deluge Wrote:  

My city's Jewish community is primarily made up of Polish Holocaust survivors and has the highest density of Holocaust survivors anywhere outside of Israel. I'm sure these old Jewish grandparents have just been lying to everyone about having their families wiped out. Go talk to some Holocaust survivors and hear their stories first hand while you still can.

Is it Skokie, Illinois?

Not sure where you live, but if you're talking about Skokie, than you will be right. I think its like 60% Jewish and 1 in 6 people there are Holocaust survivors. Cool little city outside Chicago which also has its own Holocaust Museum.

There was big controversy there in the 70s when the Neo-Nazi party in Chicago wanted to march through Skokie in which a legal battle ensued where the city attempted to ban the event.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_So..._of_Skokie

The Nazi party organization had a Jewish lawyer to represent them and had won based on first amendment grounds.

They even made a movie on it. It's called Skokie if anyone is interested.


I've also met a few survivors, mainly from Skokie. Many came to my school to tell their stories.

[Krusyos]

(01-29-2015 10:47 PM)MidWest Wrote:  

(01-29-2015 09:06 PM)Deluge Wrote:  

My city's Jewish community is primarily made up of Polish Holocaust survivors and has the highest density of Holocaust survivors anywhere outside of Israel. I'm sure these old Jewish grandparents have just been lying to everyone about having their families wiped out. Go talk to some Holocaust survivors and hear their stories first hand while you still can.

Is it Skokie, Illinois?

Not sure where you live, but if you're talking about Skokie, than you will be right. I think its like 60% Jewish and 1 in 6 people there are Holocaust survivors. Cool little city outside Chicago which also has its own Holocaust Museum.

There was big controversy there in the 70s when the Neo-Nazi party in Chicago wanted to march through Skokie in which a legal battle ensued where the city attempted to ban the event.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_So..._of_Skokie

The Nazi party organization had a Jewish lawyer to represent them and had won based on first amendment grounds.

They even made a movie on it. It's called Skokie if anyone is interested.


I've also met a few survivors, mainly from Skokie. Many came to my school to tell their stories.

Real life really is stranger than fiction.

[GeroMeroHero]

It is weird how so much of the official story is based on eyewitness testimony.

But I really don't doubt the official story.
I do doubt ignoring the other victims in those camps, the holodomor, and using it as a bludgeon to beat white countries with when white countries also liberated those camps

[getdownonit]

The Holocaust was not unique in the 20th Century, let alone in human history.

What irritates me is how few people realize that Jews comprised only half, approximately, of those killed in concentration camps. Nary a tear is shed for the millions of Poles, Soviets, Slavs, gypsies, disabled, homosexuals, Spaniards, and other humans that the Nazis sent to an early death.

Propagandizing human tragedy is as low as it gets.

[Slim Shady]

I think any sane/red pill person should and does realize that the main problem is the Jewish propaganda factory and victimhood lobby present to grant special privileges to powerful Jewsih people in the US and to the Israeli state itself.

Scorpion has actually made some good points. Any event that is illegal to question in a "liberal/free" country should automatically raise red flags.

Deluge: You mention that the IHR is "considered by many scholars as the world's leading Holocaust denial organization." I don't know this organization and it might well be.

Holocaust denial organization to me sounds like "Holocaust denial propaganda machine". However this is a criminal act in many countries.

On the other hand there exists a very lively Jewish propaganda machine that is funded by the most powerful men and nations. Why?

[Yatagan]

(01-29-2015 11:02 PM)Krusyos Wrote:  

(01-29-2015 10:47 PM)MidWest Wrote:  

(01-29-2015 09:06 PM)Deluge Wrote:  

My city's Jewish community is primarily made up of Polish Holocaust survivors and has the highest density of Holocaust survivors anywhere outside of Israel. I'm sure these old Jewish grandparents have just been lying to everyone about having their families wiped out. Go talk to some Holocaust survivors and hear their stories first hand while you still can.

Is it Skokie, Illinois?

Not sure where you live, but if you're talking about Skokie, than you will be right. I think its like 60% Jewish and 1 in 6 people there are Holocaust survivors. Cool little city outside Chicago which also has its own Holocaust Museum.

There was big controversy there in the 70s when the Neo-Nazi party in Chicago wanted to march through Skokie in which a legal battle ensued where the city attempted to ban the event.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_So..._of_Skokie

The Nazi party organization had a Jewish lawyer to represent them and had won based on first amendment grounds.

They even made a movie on it. It's called Skokie if anyone is interested.


I've also met a few survivors, mainly from Skokie. Many came to my school to tell their stories.

Real life really is stranger than fiction.

What's stranger is how said Nazi organization was lead by a Jew:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Collin

Quote:

Collin lost his position in the party when stories were publicized that his father was a Jewish Holocaust survivor

[DrewP]

I have no insight into this subject beyond common knowledge, but I have to say this: When some posters attempt to construct a logical argument that the death toll is exaggerated, and the response basically amounts to "OMG HOW COULD YOU DENY THE HOLOCAUST, TELL THAT TO THE SURVIVORS!", it makes me skeptical. I never trust the side that blatantly misrepresents the other side's position, nor do I trust people who argue via emotional outbursts. This is coming from someone with Jewish blood.

On a related note, if this wasn't an anonymous forum, I'd be nervous about being branded a "Holocaust denier" based upon the above paragraph, which doesn't in any way, shape or form deny the Holocaust. I think that says a lot about the level of propaganda and suppression pertaining to this subject.

[GeroMeroHero]

(01-30-2015 12:01 AM)getdownonit Wrote:  

The Holocaust was not unique in the 20th Century, let alone in human history.

What irritates me is how few people realize that Jews comprised only half, approximately, of those killed in concentration camps. Nary a tear is shed for the millions of Poles, Soviets, Slavs, gypsies, disabled, homosexuals, Spaniards, and other humans that the Nazis sent to an early death.

Propagandizing human tragedy is as low as it gets.

Homosexuals and disabled are brought up as a shaming tactic since Republicans don't think they should marry and want less benefits spending so they also hate the disabled too.
Obviously right...

[Deluge]

(01-29-2015 10:47 PM)MidWest Wrote:  

(01-29-2015 09:06 PM)Deluge Wrote:  

My city's Jewish community is primarily made up of Polish Holocaust survivors and has the highest density of Holocaust survivors anywhere outside of Israel. I'm sure these old Jewish grandparents have just been lying to everyone about having their families wiped out. Go talk to some Holocaust survivors and hear their stories first hand while you still can.

Is it Skokie, Illinois?

Not sure where you live, but if you're talking about Skokie, than you will be right. I think its like 60% Jewish and 1 in 6 people there are Holocaust survivors. Cool little city outside Chicago which also has its own Holocaust Museum.

There was big controversy there in the 70s when the Neo-Nazi party in Chicago wanted to march through Skokie in which a legal battle ensued where the city attempted to ban the event.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_So..._of_Skokie

The Nazi party organization had a Jewish lawyer to represent them and had won based on first amendment grounds.

They even made a movie on it. It's called Skokie if anyone is interested.


I've also met a few survivors, mainly from Skokie. Many came to my school to tell their stories.

Melbourne, Australia. Most of the Jews are Holocaust survivors and their descendants, with the rest more recent arrivals from South Africa and the FSU. Perhaps Skokie has more per-capita but it's a suburb of Chicago rather than it's own major city. There are parts of Melbourne that are comparable. At the area rather than city level, places like Borough Park or South Williamsburg in Brooklyn or any other majority ultra-Orthodox Jewish area would also be majority Holocaust descended. Most Haredi Jews were wiped out by the Nazi's but those who survived migrated West and have been popping out 9-10 kids a family ever since. Before long they'll be the majority of Western Jews.

(01-30-2015 12:01 AM)getdownonit Wrote:  

The Holocaust was not unique in the 20th Century, let alone in human history.

What irritates me is how few people realize that Jews comprised only half, approximately, of those killed in concentration camps. Nary a tear is shed for the millions of Poles, Soviets, Slavs, gypsies, disabled, homosexuals, Spaniards, and other humans that the Nazis sent to an early death.

Propagandizing human tragedy is as low as it gets.

This is true. Most of the victims of the Nazi's were Slavs, but the bulk of those who died in the death camps were Jews. The plan was for the Poles to be exterminated next once all the Jews were finished, to make way for German colonization of Poland.

[lskdfjldsf]

This isn't all about the Jews.

My opinion after living in Germany for many years is that the Holocaust narrative, as promoted within the West itself, is the most effective weapon in keeping central European powers pinned down and fenced in as subordinates by Russia, the U.S., the U.K., France, and Israel. Germany has always been the tough guy in Europe, capable of exerting tremendous military and political force (Bismarck through WW2) and influencing the world order through its own self-interest. Century after century of war by Germany as a unified country or by the individual nation-states within it (e.g. Prussia, Bavaria) is reason enough for other countries to seek a means of control over it.

Fast forward to today. Germans have no economic or foreign policy ambitions outside their own borders, and their once powerful militaries have been reduced to ill-equipped self defense forces. For an extremely wealthy, industrialized nation with cutting-edge military and scientific technology, this is unheard of in the developed world. By pumping the general public full of self-guilt at an early age (e.g. young German students take mandatory field trips to places like Dachau), Germans have adopted the Holocaust as a part of their own identity, even more so than the Israelis. War, nationalism, patriotism, even recognizing that differences exist between cultures, is taboo. This is the very source of their self-defeating Schuldkomplex and the reason they don't stick up for themselves on the international stage, instead opting for a subordinate status among other world powers.

The modern political landscape in Germany is a reflection of this. A weak Germany, terrified to exert influence or power in its own best interests due to historic guilt, is better for pretty much everyone but the Germans themselves. The Israelis have exploited this relationship more than anyone to validate their claims to statehood.

[GeroMeroHero]

(01-30-2015 03:07 AM)Blick Mang Wrote:  

This isn't all about the Jews.

My opinion after living in Germany for many years is that the Holocaust narrative, as promoted within the West itself, is the most effective weapon in keeping central European powers pinned down and fenced in as subordinates by Russia, the U.S., the U.K., France, and Israel. Germany has always been the tough guy in Europe, capable of exerting tremendous military and political force (Bismarck through WW2) and influencing the world order through its own self-interest. Century after century of war by Germany as a unified country or by the individual nation-states within it (e.g. Prussia, Bavaria) is reason enough for other countries to seek a means of control over it.

Fast forward to today. Germans have no economic or foreign policy ambitions outside their own borders, and their once powerful militaries have been reduced to ill-equipped self defense forces. For an extremely wealthy, industrialized nation with cutting-edge military and scientific technology, this is unheard of in the developed world. By pumping the general public full of self-guilt at an early age (e.g. young German students take mandatory field trips to places like Dachau), Germans have adopted the Holocaust as a part of their own identity, even more so than the Israelis. War, nationalism, patriotism, even recognizing that differences exist between cultures, is taboo. This is the very source of their self-defeating Schuldkomplex and the reason they don't stick up for themselves on the international stage, instead opting for a subordinate status among other world powers.

The modern political landscape in Germany is a reflection of this. A weak Germany, terrified to exert influence or power in its own best interests due to historic guilt, is better for pretty much everyone but the Germans themselves. The Israelis have exploited this relationship more than anyone to validate their claims to statehood.

Maybe that was the plan...
   

[scorpion]

(01-29-2015 10:04 PM)Deluge Wrote:  

One reason there is much certainty about 6 million dead is because we know roughly how many Jews there were in Europe before and after the war.

Yet these simplistic population totals ignore the elephant in the room: the large-scale post-war Jewish emigration to the United States, Australia, the Soviet Union and most significantly Israel. Just because there were fewer Jews in Europe doesn't mean those people were killed, it just means they weren't there anymore. The vast majority of European Jewry that supposedly died in the Holocaust were simply trapped behind the Iron Curtain at the war's end, at which point it became impossible for the West to accurately account for them. Over the ensuring years they then gradually migrated to Israel. This becomes very obvious when looking at Israel's historic population numbers, which show a huge spike between 1945 and 1967, a fact which is largely explained by the gradual migration of Eastern European Jews from the Soviet Union.

People who say their "entire family was killed in the gas chambers" more likely simply got separated at some point, either having been sent to different internment camps or having gotten separated during the chaos of the final days of the war, and were unable to locate each other after the war's end (again, probably due to being on opposite sides of the Iron Curtain).

Keep in mind what I'm presenting here are only the most shallow and basic objections. A more detailed analysis (especially taking technical considerations into account, i.e. the blueprints of the supposed extermination camps, the capabilities of the crematoria ovens, the physical properties of Zyklon B and diesel gas supposedly used for the killings, the design of the "gas chambers", etc...) becomes even more problematic for the Holocaust narrative.

There's a reason there are laws and severe social sanctions against investigating the Holocaust. It's because even a cursory investigation reveals major inconsistencies and outright impossibilities with the official story.

Is it illegal to question 9/11? Nope.
Is it illegal to question the JFK assassination? Nope.
Is it illegal to question the Moon landing? Nope.
Is it illegal to question literally any other event in history? Nope.

And yet it's illegal to question the official Holocaust narrative. How can this be? Why does a historical event require legal protection from scrutiny if there is nothing to hide?

[Saga]

(01-30-2015 09:11 AM)scorpion Wrote:  

And yet it's illegal to question the official Holocaust narrative. How can this be? Why does a historical event require legal protection from scrutiny if there is nothing to hide?

It doesn't require it, in fact some historians of the Holocaust have spoken in favor of lifting the ban on denial. It's not as if they're afraid of different conclusions, it's more a matter of political inertia than anything else.

[scorpion]

(01-30-2015 09:54 AM)Saga Wrote:  

(01-30-2015 09:11 AM)scorpion Wrote:  

And yet it's illegal to question the official Holocaust narrative. How can this be? Why does a historical event require legal protection from scrutiny if there is nothing to hide?

It doesn't require it, in fact some historians of the Holocaust have spoken in favor of lifting the ban on denial. It's not as if they're afraid of different conclusions, it's more a matter of political inertia than anything else.

This is wishful thinking. Barring a right-wing or Islamic takeover of Europe, these laws will not be repealed any time soon, certainly not within our lifetimes. It doesn't matter what historians want, it matters what politicians and the powerful people who finance them want. And they don't want open investigation into the Holocaust narrative.

[Aer]

If you want to hear of real suffering, carnage, and brutality, read Bloodlands by Timothy Snyder. It's all about the land between the Soviet Union and Germany between the onset of the Russian Revolution and the end of World War II.

Rather than questioning the Holocaust, we should accept that it was a terrible tragedy, and realize it was one of many genocidal actions of people in the 20th century.

Rather than questioning the real numbers, be glad we live in a time where large scale atrocities do not occur, sans Rwanda and other African countries.

We must also look at the Holodomor, which in many ways was equally as brutal. Children were starved as their grain was requisitioned, people killed and were killed for bread, and some resorted to cannibalism. I'll never forget reading this poem within the book.

"Daddy and mommy are in the kolkhoz...
The poor child cries as alone he goes
There’s no bread and there’s no fat
The party’s ended all of that
Seek not the gentle nor the mild
A father’s eaten his own child
The party man he beats and stamps
And sends us to Siberian camps”


Be thankful we live in a time where we can look back upon these atrocities as a symptom of the 20th century, rather than a plague which still haunts humanity.

[Deluge]

(01-30-2015 09:11 AM)scorpion Wrote:  

(01-29-2015 10:04 PM)Deluge Wrote:  

One reason there is much certainty about 6 million dead is because we know roughly how many Jews there were in Europe before and after the war.

Yet these simplistic population totals ignore the elephant in the room: the large-scale post-war Jewish emigration to the United States, Australia, the Soviet Union and most significantly Israel. Just because there were fewer Jews in Europe doesn't mean those people were killed, it just means they weren't there anymore. The vast majority of European Jewry that supposedly died in the Holocaust were simply trapped behind the Iron Curtain at the war's end, at which point it became impossible for the West to accurately account for them. Over the ensuring years they then gradually migrated to Israel. This becomes very obvious when looking at Israel's historic population numbers, which show a huge spike between 1945 and 1967, a fact which is largely explained by the gradual migration of Eastern European Jews from the Soviet Union.

People who say their "entire family was killed in the gas chambers" more likely simply got separated at some point, either having been sent to different internment camps or having gotten separated during the chaos of the final days of the war, and were unable to locate each other after the war's end (again, probably due to being on opposite sides of the Iron Curtain).

I'm that astounded someone of your intellect can actually spout something so aggressively stupid. Your math doesn't add up, not even in the slightest.



There were ~12 million Jews in Europe before the war, and ~6 million afterwards. That number went down even further in the ensuing years due to emigration, virtually all of the Jews who left Europe did so after the war had ended, not during it, for obvious reasons... There are less than 1.5 million Jews left in all of Europe today, down from that ~6 million due to emigration right after the war (almost all from "behind the Iron Curtain", especially the refugee camps) and from the 80's onward from the USSR. Put another way, there were 18 million Jews worldwide before the war, and 12 million worldwide immediately afterwards, plus a bit more today due to natural increase. Let's assume we can't account for Jews behind the Iron Curtain at all (which if false, things weren't as opaque as you seem to think especially immediately after the war), then somewhere between 1939 and the fall of the USSR roughly 6 million worldwide Jews went missing, even more if you assumed they survived beyond the 1940's while enjoying a natural increase. Even the most cursory glance of the numbers of Holocaust survivors who emigrated shows your math is impossible.

The only way what you're saying IS possible, is if in some meticulously executed secret conspiracy the Soviets themselves killed 6 million Jews themselves without leaving a single witness or record, or have any of the locals Gentile or otherwise noticing, and then for some reason allowed the remaining millions of Jews to either stay in the refugee camps until they could leave Europe, or remain in the USSR and it's satellites. How exactly they died is another debate entirely that I don't know much about, but there is absolutely no way around the fact that 6 million Jews are missing. You'd have to be incapable of grade school level math and common sense, to actually believe that those missing 6 million are accounted for by emigration. I think you're plain trolling us here.

Even if you're not trolling, I'm aware there's no way I'd ever be able to change your mind on anything relating to the Holocaust, but I'm bored and hopefully other people who accept what you said at face value will look at the numbers for themselves after reading this. I'll leave it at that.

[Lemmo]

(01-30-2015 10:21 AM)Aer Wrote:  

If you want to hear of real suffering, carnage, and brutality, read Bloodlands by Timothy Snyder. It's all about the land between the Soviet Union and Germany between the onset of the Russian Revolution and the end of World War II.

Rather than questioning the Holocaust, we should accept that it was a terrible tragedy, and realize it was one of many genocidal actions of people in the 20th century.

Rather than questioning the real numbers, be glad we live in a time where large scale atrocities do not occur, sans Rwanda and other African countries.

We must also look at the Holodomor, which in many ways was equally as brutal. Children were starved as their grain was requisitioned, people killed and were killed for bread, and some resorted to cannibalism. I'll never forget reading this poem within the book.

"Daddy and mommy are in the kolkhoz...
The poor child cries as alone he goes
There’s no bread and there’s no fat
The party’s ended all of that
Seek not the gentle nor the mild
A father’s eaten his own child
The party man he beats and stamps
And sends us to Siberian camps”


Be thankful we live in a time where we can look back upon these atrocities as a symptom of the 20th century, rather than a plague which still haunts humanity.

Bloodlands is a great book and illustrates the flaw in how the Holocaust is portrayed. The entire region between the German and Soviet empires where most of the killing in WWII took place roughly coincided with the Pale of Settlement where most of the world's Jews lived. The entire region was devastated. To fetishize the deaths that fall under the label of the "Holocaust", which were a minority of the total deaths, contributes nothing to the understanding of WW2 and treats some lives as more valuable than others.

Similarly, ignoring/underplaying the Holodomor prevents people from understanding the extent to which US resources and lives were spent during WW2 in order to facilitate the expansion of an evil empire.

We're still being fed 1940s era propaganda about WW2 being a necessary war for democracy. Key tenets of the propaganda are that 1) Communism wasn't so bad and 2) deaths in WW2 were mainly because of racism (shudder, the greatest evil), not because of a massive war of annihilation between two bordering empires.

[scorpion]

(01-30-2015 10:23 AM)Deluge Wrote:  

I'm that astounded someone of your intellect can actually spout something so aggressively stupid. Your math doesn't add up, not even in the slightest.



There were ~12 million Jews in Europe before the war, and ~6 million afterwards. That number went down even further in the ensuing years due to emigration, virtually all of the Jews who left Europe did so after the war had ended, not during it, for obvious reasons... There are less than 1.5 million Jews left in Europe today, down from that ~6 million due to emigration right after the war (almost all from "behind the Iron Curtain", especially refugee camps) and from the 80's onward from the USSR. Put another way, there were 18 million Jews worldwide before the war, and 12 million afterwards, plus a bit more today due to natural increase. Somewhere between 1939 and the fall of the USSR roughly 6 million Jews went missing, even more if you assumed they survived for longer enjoying a natural increase. Even the most cursory glance of the numbers of Holocaust survivors who emigrated shows your math is impossible.

The only way what you're saying IS possible, is if in some meticulously executed conspiracy the Soviets themselves killed 6 million Jews themselves without leaving a single witness or record, or have any of the locals noticing, and then for some reason allowed the remaining millions to either stay in the refugee camps until they could leave Europe, or remain in the USSR.

I know there's no way I'll ever change your mind on anything relating to the Holocaust, but I'm bored and hopefully other people who accepts what you said at face value will look at the numbers for themselves after reading this. I'll leave it at that.

The problem is that the post-war population numbers are simply impossible to verify, especially given the massive displacement among millions of Europeans (not just Jews) following the war, and the fact that the vast majority of Jews ended up in Soviet occupied territory at war's end. All you can say for sure is that there was a large Jewish exodus from Europe. There is absolutely no way of saying for sure that six million people were systematically murdered in gas chambers, especially given the glaring lack of physical evidence supporting such a claim. Indeed, literally the entire Holocaust narrative is based on circumstantial evidence: confessions derived through torture at Nuremberg, eyewitness testimony which is often inconsistent and contradictory, and unverifiable population numbers. For a crime of such magnitude, it is impossible to believe that there would be not just little, but zero direct physical evidence supporting it.

In more detail:

Quote:

Where did the six million Jews go if they were not killed?

Because the six million number is not based on a census or survey or any other type of documentation, this question cannot be answered in an accounting 'balance sheet' type manner. However, a general explanation is possible. There are several circumstances one has to keep in mind when considering what happened to the Jews of Europe between 1939 and 1948.

Before the outbreak of the war, the Jews of Europe were concentrated in the east. Poland, The Soviet Union, Hungary, and other countries that fell into the Soviet sphere of influence after the war contained the bulk of the population in question.

Since the very definition of Jew changed with the governments, no accounting of how many Jews remained in these areas after the defeat of Nazi Germany is possible, but everything indicates a large Jewish population remained after the end of the war.

During the war, populations in eastern Europe shifted several times. In 1939, Nazi Germany invaded Poland and occupied the western half. Stalin's USSR. occupied the eastern half. During the period that followed, many Jews shifted to the Soviet half. The Russians deported millions of people into the Russian interior ahead of the German invasion.

When Nazi Germany attacked The USSR. in 1941, the German army found that the areas they were to occupied had been depopulated by the Soviets of a third of its people. The Germans estimate 22 million people were moved eastward into the Soviet interior from Poland, Ukraine, White Russia, the Baltic States and other regions the Germans were to temporarily take from the Soviets.

As the Communists retreated, the Soviet secret police, known under the acronyms NKVD and OGPU, murdered thousands of political prisoners in Poland, the Baltic states, and Ukraine. In reaction to these murders the local populations killed many Jews because the Jews were viewed as collaborators in the Communist occupation and the suppression of nationalist organizations.

In late 1941, the Nazis began deporting Jews from central and eastern Europe into the areas captured from the Soviets. These were generally concentrated into Ghettos and labor camps. The conditions under which these expulsions took place were far from ideal and many thousands died in the process. In addition, over one million Jews are believed to be serving in the Red Army during the time with over one hundred thousand dying while in uniform. As the Germans retreated in 1944 and 1945, millions of people from the east came with them. Some came willingly in order to avoid the Red Army. Others, mostly conscripted for labor, were forcibly evacuated. Millions of people, mostly ethnic Germans, died during this collapse of Nazi Germany through expulsions that came during and after the defeat as part of the brutal occupation of the Allies. Germany lost a fourth of its territory. Poland was shifted westward. The Baltic countries would not regain their independence for decades.

After Germany's surrender, Europe was a chaotic mess with millions of refugees from scattered communities wandering in all directions. There was no way to determine how many Jews had died at that point despite the fact that the six million figure had been part of the anti-German propaganda long before the war was over. During the war years and the first years after the war, millions of people--Jews included--left Europe for other parts of the world including the US, the Middle East, Australia, Canada, South America, and South Africa. In the case of the Jews, there were organizations assisting their relocation, particularly to British- controlled Palestine.

It is very easy to claim a European Jewish population on eleven million in 1939 and a Jewish population of five million in 1945, but there is no way to verify either number. Nevertheless, simply due the fact that there were massive shifts in population in the areas where Jews were most concentrated and much of the most ruthless and destructive warfare was practiced in eastern Europe, it is very likely Jewish casualties were heavy and may have exceeded one million dead.

The remainder of the 'missing' were absorbed into the USSR. or moved to The US, Palestine/Israel, Argentina, South Africa and other countries.