[robreke]

I guess it's attention whoring or validation. Example:

A cute girl gives you eye contact (you catch her looking at you ) maybe more than once and/or she even walks by a few times and smiles ( had this happen in a coffee shop)

Then, when you open .....she gives quick one word answers and/or chats but has shifty/ semi avoidant eye contact. It's kind of like they never thought you'd have the audacity to open even though they gave approach signals.

I see a few girls like this on and off who initially did this and will still glance/look at me when I'm around as if semi intrigued but ever since that initial open went nowhere...I'm kind of just ignoring them. I'm wondering if I should re try or not.

Experiences with this? and thoughts on the psychology behind it.

[Tactician]

Hey, I had something similar to this happen yesterday.

Interaction started off really bland and we weren't vibing at all. Lots of silences and misheard sentences (loud surroundings). I thought of leaving, but stuck around and tried anyway, even though we both felt uncomfortable and awkward at first. Her body language was pretty closed off and I was having trouble maintaining the conversation because she wasn't contributing much, but she didn't look like she was trying to get away, so I kept going.

In the end, we had a great time. Her and I ended up having a lot in common. Some girls are just very shy to meet new people and take a while to warm up. Introverts are often like this; it's hard to get them to open up, but if they do, they are often really enjoyable.
-
Anyway, a good analogy is Escalation. Is she leaving or telling you to stop? No? Ok, keep going!

As the man, bear the burden of the conversation and lead her. After a while (and it varies massively depending on the girl), if she likes you, she'll start reciprocating.

So, keep going until you know for sure it won't work out or you decide that your effort is not worth it.
-
Bubbly girls are fun, but in a way, you don't learn as much from them. Getting an introvert to open up is much more of challenge and gives better insight into your social skills.

"Untested virtue is no virtue at all."

[edtf]

Its happened to me. I was walking past the table of a pretty asian girl at starbucks, and she glances up and sideways at me as I pass by to use the restroom. When I come back I open her about her sweater, but she's only giving one line responses and not re-engaging me in any way, so I give up. Later on she opens me asking me what time the store closes, but again the conversation goes nowhere when I guess where she's from. Maybe she's expecting you to take the initiative, to warm her up enough. Its hard for me as a natural introvert to do this, but I think its worth a shot.

[ElBorrachoInfamoso]

Often, IOIs are involuntary and/or unconscious. Not every girl is a cheating whore. Some girls will give you IOIs unconsciously but then shut you down when you talk to them because they have a boyfriend.

[The_CEO]

Read Day Bang?

[CactusCat589]

I'm good-natured and say things like "So you're not too talkative, that's understandable, most people love hearing me talk so much they don't want to ruin it by talking themselves." Then I keep leading the conversation. Usually they will warm up.

This happens a lot in cold approach. A part of them is in a state of mild shock that they're even talking to you because they don't expect you to actually walk up to them. The IOI was subconscious - once they're consciously enjoying you being there it becomes much more normal.

[draketton]

(01-12-2015 04:55 AM)ElBorrachoInfamoso Wrote:  

Often, IOIs are involuntary and/or unconscious. Not every girl is a cheating whore. Some girls will give you IOIs unconsciously but then shut you down when you talk to them because they have a boyfriend.

some girls will give you IOIs voluntarily with the expectation that since they've made a conscious effort to hook you in, the rest of the interaction is on you to escalate aggressively

[robreke]

(01-12-2015 04:58 AM)The_CEO Wrote:  

Read Day Bang?

It's true about them having boyfriends but perhaps they think you're physically attractive. One time I was talking to a girl and she was engaging...but I could almost see a mental struggle and furrowing of her brow as we spoke as if she was trying to resolve some issue.

When I texted her later...she did back a few times and finally broke down and told me she was trying to work it out with her ex again. NEXT!

Yes - I have read Day Bang.

[The_CEO]

The reason I asked about Day Bang... Roosh on more than one occasion implores you to proceed as if your feet are locked in cement (if she's not leaving or otherwise obviously ending the interaction and wanting you to leave).

Also... remind yourself about "catlike" behavior.

Are you doing the "elderly" and ramble thing when you open on the sweater?

I also seem to remember section in DB where Roosh describes a guy he's coaching who was tempted to leave early (based on a seemingly cold response at first) but stuck with it and got the number.

[Pride male]

Mixed signals. Girls using push pull technique. Could be anti slut defence. Read Chase Amates article on mixed signals at Girlschase.

Read this on some blog. Touching a woman is the male version of a shit test. Let's you know whether she is serious or playing mind games. Just keep plowing. Make the ho say no.

Funny story. Had a tall leggy blond smile at me. I approached her then she told me to fuck off. Women, huh?

[XXL]

My opinion of that based on first hand experience and conversation with other guys is that girls are just fucking crazy at times and very often have no idea what they're doing especially when emotions lead them.

bad news is that even though we know that we still try to read into their behavior or see the signals or get some sort of overt green light to make a move.

once you get over that by blindly following your gut and succeeding in unclear situations you will realize how illogical girls can be and how unreliable their demeanor tend to be to be too concerned about it

[heavy]

There's probably a tendency there, simply because of a woman's natural instincts to not want to hook up, or even talk to, a loser.

If you cold approach, you've at least proven on some level you aren't a loser.
**however**
If you talk to her after she eye-fucks you, you haven't proven you aren't a loser, at least to the same degree.

So yes, I suspect if you talk to her after she's given you an IOI, she expects you to put a little more effort than if you cold approached out of nowhere.

This is why I've read heartiste and others say the simple act of approaching is displaying alpha-ness to some degree. Yeah, you may fuck it up or she may not be interested, but if you approach, you'll end up getting laid.

[bojangles]

(01-12-2015 05:31 AM)CactusCat589 Wrote:  

I'm good-natured and say things like "So you're not too talkative, that's understandable, most people love hearing me talk so much they don't want to ruin it by talking themselves." Then I keep leading the conversation. Usually they will warm up.

This happens a lot in cold approach. A part of them is in a state of mild shock that they're even talking to you because they don't expect you to actually walk up to them. The IOI was subconscious - once they're consciously enjoying you being there it becomes much more normal.

You've hit the nail on the head. This is exactly what it is, you've got the call out the elephant in the room and lead the interaction. Ramble on, prod, whatever, that IOI wasn't coincidental.

[heavy]

There's probably a tendency there, simply because of a woman's natural instincts to not want to hook up, or even talk to, a loser.

If you cold approach, you've at least proven on some level you aren't a loser.
**however**
If you talk to her after she eye-fucks you, you haven't proven you aren't a loser, at least to the same degree.

So yes, I suspect if you talk to her after she's given you an IOI, she expects you to put a little more effort than if you cold approached out of nowhere.

Makes me think of some mass marketing principles:
1. You can have broad qualifications for prospects (cold approach, no IOIs). Costs will be higher (more time, energy, social awkwardness, and overall approaches), and your response rate by percentage will be lower (#s or bangs per approach), but you'll potentially get higher revenue (#s and bangs).
2. Or you can narrow your qualifications (approach after eye-contact). Costs will be lower (less time, energy, social awkwardness, and overall approaches), your response rate by percentage will be higher (#s or bangs per approach), but you'll sacrifice #s and bangs you didn't go for because they didn't give you an IOI.

What OP is describing is an added layer of illogical behavior that women posses (we all do to some degree), that being if you have the balls to grab her attention without any IOI from her, you communicate that you're either alpha or dangerous, or both

This is the double edge of IOIs. Approaching girls who eye-fuck you gives you better prospects, but cold-approaching girls offers potential instant-alpha status not available if she beckons you over.

[WestIndianArchie]

Common.

90/10 rule. Be prepared to handle 90% of the conversation before the girl opens.

If you've already read Day Bang, see if you can dig up the "Juggler Method".

WIA

(01-11-2015 10:39 PM)robreke Wrote:  

I guess it's attention whoring or validation. Example:

A cute girl gives you eye contact (you catch her looking at you ) maybe more than once and/or she even walks by a few times and smiles ( had this happen in a coffee shop)

Then, when you open .....she gives quick one word answers and/or chats but has shifty/ semi avoidant eye contact. It's kind of like they never thought you'd have the audacity to open even though they gave approach signals.

I see a few girls like this on and off who initially did this and will still glance/look at me when I'm around as if semi intrigued but ever since that initial open went nowhere...I'm kind of just ignoring them. I'm wondering if I should re try or not.

Experiences with this? and thoughts on the psychology behind it.

[Agreddor]

It could just be their lack of conversational skills or rather social inepticy.

[coverdoc]

(01-12-2015 05:31 AM)CactusCat589 Wrote:  

I'm good-natured and say things like "So you're not too talkative, that's understandable, most people love hearing me talk so much they don't want to ruin it by talking themselves." Then I keep leading the conversation. Usually they will warm up.

This happens a lot in cold approach. A part of them is in a state of mild shock that they're even talking to you because they don't expect you to actually walk up to them. The IOI was subconscious - once they're consciously enjoying you being there it becomes much more normal.

Dude that line is golden. Will be trying that on my next cold approach.

[bojangles]

(01-12-2015 09:11 PM)Agreddor Wrote:  

It could just be their lack of conversational skills or rather social inepticy.

This is common in the west now, women can't seem to hold conversations that go beyond shrieking or moaning about something somewhere that it's irrelevant to you or their lives. Hence why they clam up in conversations with a guy that they find attractive.

[Agreddor]

Its worse in asia, to the extent where the converrsation is literally one sided.

[Merenguero]

I'm surprised nobody stated what to me is very obvious. They really aren't interested, but give IOIs so that you will approach them for validation purposes. Another thing which happens, although less frequently than the validation thing, is that if you are a guy with tons of confidence, they may get intimated once you start talking to them. Regardless, if they give you IOIs, buy all means approach and more good things will happen than bad.

(01-12-2015 04:55 AM)ElBorrachoInfamoso Wrote:  

Often, IOIs are involuntary and/or unconscious. Not every girl is a cheating whore. Some girls will give you IOIs unconsciously but then shut you down when you talk to them because they have a boyfriend.

I agree with this too.

[robreke]

(01-13-2015 07:50 PM)Merenguero Wrote:  

I'm surprised nobody stated what to me is very obvious. They really aren't interested, but give IOIs so that you will approach them for validation purposes. Another thing which happens, although less frequently than the validation thing, is that if you are a guy with tons of confidence, they may get intimated once you start talking to them. Regardless, if they give you IOIs, buy all means approach and more good things will happen than bad.

(01-12-2015 04:55 AM)ElBorrachoInfamoso Wrote:  

Often, IOIs are involuntary and/or unconscious. Not every girl is a cheating whore. Some girls will give you IOIs unconsciously but then shut you down when you talk to them because they have a boyfriend.

I agree with this too.

^ I think this is what happened to me today. It's actually the girl who semi-inspired this thread

Saw her at whole foods sitting outside studying. She's a college girl with 10/10 legs and ass...a track runner....truly boner inspiring. Her face is probably a 7ish. Smaller girl...probably 5.3 ish.

When I saw her about two weeks ago, at this same grocery, she was smiling and looking at me multiple times. I didn't approach on that day because she had previously smiled and given IOIs in a coffee shop but when I chatted her up ( this was last year) she seemed abrupt and non engaging.

So today, I see her as I'm coming out sitting there and say fuck it. I go direct.

I walk up to her as she's sitting studying organic chemistry.
Me> Excuse me
Her - takes out headphones
Me; How are you? ( she kind of smiles and recognizes me ) I know this is random but I noticed you as I was leaving with my lunch. I thought you were cute and wanted to say hello. ( Her smile widens just a little ) I'm robreke ( extending my hand)
Her: I'm Melinda ( we shake hands)
She seems a little meek and unsure...
Me: I know it's so rude of me to interrupt while you're studying. but I saw you and just wanted to say hello.
Her: Oh, you're fine.
Me: So what are you up to today?
Her: studying for test tomorrow.
Me: It's chemistry.
Her: Yes siii ( she almost says "sir" but seems to refrain from saying it ) ...organic chemistry.
Me: Oh I see, you must be pre med.
She nods.
Me: Yeah, a good friend of mine just got into med school at UMC she had a real tough time with the MCAT.
The whole time she's looking at me meekly with a meek grin. She has semi-cowering body language as if she's a dog expecting to get swatted by its master. I was standing the whole time and I'm 6'3 so I was obviously towering over her. I thought about sitting but her rather unreceptive body language and on-off eye contact told me it probably wouldn't work.
She really isn't offering anything.
Me: I work right up the street and come here for lunch pretty often.
She smiles a little and nods.
Me: well, I'll let you get back to studying...I hope the test goes well.
Her: OK...Thanks
Me: Let me text you sometime we could grab a coffee or something.
Her: Well, I'm really very busy with school just starting I wouldn't have time.
Me: I understand....good luck.
Her: Thank you. Nice meeting you! ( only thing she said with much enthusiasm)

Oh well, I won't waste any more time on this IOI giving/ non number giving gal. NEXT!

[Travesty]

^ Always take a seat next to a girl after the intro try to even shake her hand while sitting down on a chair....

If there is no chair or bench or whatever immediately go into a crouch position like a quarterback in a football huddle at a 45 degree angle toward her but don't get too low.. stay at eyecontact level... and steal the book from her to look at for a second to establish some comfort. Also make sure to stay at least arm's length away. She needs to feel like she could easily get up and move away at any time. As the conversation gets warmer nudge closer. Then slowly grab her inner thigh and ask her about her darkest fantasies. Ignore that last sentence.

However you do need to take a seat at some point quickly, IE within the first minute or two, number crunch, or ask her to go for a quick walk. The awkwardness of the sit vs. stand will settle in quickly so you need to get out of this situation ASAP.

The crouch and 45 degree angle when conversing with a seated stranger is something I learned in my EMT training... it makes strangers comfortable and lowers their guard because in EMS you often need to break the touch barrier almost immediately without them knowing you.

Could also be useful if you want to mug somebody in broad daylight.

Source: I am 6'4" and tower over short chicks as well.

[WestIndianArchie]

Glad you asked the buying question, better than nothing - but your approach is a little timid.

I'm not a GALNUC kinda guy.

Flirt right off the bat.

Playful - "oh, you're pre-med, great I have this weird rash...."

Accusatory - "Finally, you have the courage to talk to me. You've been stalking me since last week. I almost didn't notice your little munchkin frame..."

Excitement- "OMG, you're Pre-med, that means your trouble. My last GF was pre-med, and I had to help her memorize substitution reactions. She's in marketing now, Do you know Emily?"

Rather than do the
- introduction
- name exchange
- pleasantry
- buying question

You
- attention getter
- launch into a bit
- inject some fun and emotion
- give her something to work with

If she plays along, then getting the contact information is easy.

If she doesn't want to play, two choices
1) go for the buying question anyway, maybe you're not reading her reactions right

2) don't go for the buying question if she's one of those girls that you know you're going to run into @ the bookstore, coffee shop, grocery store, gym AGAIN.

Why delay the buying question on a neutral girl that you might see again?

Despite what a lot of these gurus say, a chick might just need more time to get used to the idea of you.

I know you don't run night game, but when you develop a circuit of clubs and bars that you frequent - you'll see a lot of the same faces over and over. You might say nothing, you might say hi and bye. But if it's your town, you're going to run into them outside of those avenues. For whatever reason, a chick/person seeing you at all them other places is EASIER to approach in a different setting. "hey, I know you...you go to such and such...omg we've never met" (it works well for me, cause I'm a hard to miss dude - you being a lucky tall bastard have that going as well)

They think they know you. You've created a false sense of familiarity.

I'm pretty sure the same thing can happen in your environment, as you seem to be targeting the same kinds of girls in the same places.

A fun, interesting, social guy - not some pervy older guy creeper who camps out a Barnes and Nobles and hits on 20 year olds in the self help section.

WIA

[robreke]

(01-29-2015 09:35 PM)WestIndianArchie Wrote:  

Glad you asked the buying question, better than nothing - but your approach is a little timid.

I'm not a GALNUC kinda guy.

Flirt right off the bat.

Playful - "oh, you're pre-med, great I have this weird rash...."

Accusatory - "Finally, you have the courage to talk to me. You've been stalking me since last week. I almost didn't notice your little munchkin frame..."

Excitement- "OMG, you're Pre-med, that means your trouble. My last GF was pre-med, and I had to help her memorize substitution reactions. She's in marketing now, Do you know Emily?"

Rather than do the
- introduction
- name exchange
- pleasantry
- buying question

You
- attention getter
- launch into a bit
- inject some fun and emotion
- give her something to work with

If she plays along, then getting the contact information is easy.

If she doesn't want to play, two choices
1) go for the buying question anyway, maybe you're not reading her reactions right

2) don't go for the buying question if she's one of those girls that you know you're going to run into @ the bookstore, coffee shop, grocery store, gym AGAIN.

Why delay the buying question on a neutral girl that you might see again?

Despite what a lot of these gurus say, a chick might just need more time to get used to the idea of you.

I know you don't run night game, but when you develop a circuit of clubs and bars that you frequent - you'll see a lot of the same faces over and over. You might say nothing, you might say hi and bye. But if it's your town, you're going to run into them outside of those avenues. For whatever reason, a chick/person seeing you at all them other places is EASIER to approach in a different setting. "hey, I know you...you go to such and such...omg we've never met" (it works well for me, cause I'm a hard to miss dude - you being a lucky tall bastard have that going as well)

They think they know you. You've created a false sense of familiarity.

I'm pretty sure the same thing can happen in your environment, as you seem to be targeting the same kinds of girls in the same places.

A fun, interesting, social guy - not some pervy older guy creeper who camps out a Barnes and Nobles and hits on 20 year olds in the self help section.

WIA

WIA,

Interesting what you say about possibly delay the buying question.

Is it your experience that once you ask the buying question and are turned down, like I was today, that the girl will be more avoidant/feel awkward when she sees you again vs. still have possible interest if you did not ask the buying question?

I see this girl relatively regularly so, it's fairly certain I will run into her again. I usually just ignore girls who have rejected me and say 'what's up' if we happen to make eye contact.

Unfortunately, most girls who have turned me down are pretty avoidant around me. Not rude...just don't really acknowledge me. And furthermore, because I go the same haunts in my area....which is a mid sized city....I run into these girls now and again. There is however, always a new girl here and there to approach...but there are some regulars who've told me no in the past to my 'buying questions' that I see once a week or so.

[WestIndianArchie]

(01-29-2015 10:16 PM)robreke Wrote:  

WIA,

Interesting what you say about possibly delay the buying question.

Is it your experience that once you ask the buying question and are turned down, like I was today, that the girl will be more avoidant/feel awkward when she sees you again vs. still have possible interest if you did not ask the buying question?

A girl that I will call Cerise.

Saw her @ a venue, immediately talked to her. She gave me the brush off.
Second venue, different night, game me the palm
Third venue, different night - she was in to me, and we banged. Together for a good 3 months.

"How come you kept shutting me down?"
"I knew I couldn't resist you"

In my experience women are weird and unpredictable. Most guys have a tendency to just take one swing at the pitch, and that's it.

In your case though, leaving on a high note
- works your long game in a small pond
- keeps your own mojo intact.

You're moving out of newb territory and getting to the point where you're regularly approaching and actually building your style. So not asking the buying question isn't going to be you being gun shy. I'm curious as to whether there's a scene in which you can take a leadership role that also involves your target market.
- book club?
- poetry reading

Gives you a good reason to be in your prime spots, as well as some social proof.

(01-29-2015 10:16 PM)robreke Wrote:  

I see this girl relatively regularly so, it's fairly certain I will run into her again. I usually just ignore girls who have rejected me and say 'what's up' if we happen to make eye contact.

Unfortunately, most girls who have turned me down are pretty avoidant around me. Not rude...just don't really acknowledge me. And furthermore, because I go the same haunts in my area....which is a mid sized city....I run into these girls now and again. There is however, always a new girl here and there to approach...but there are some regulars who've told me no in the past to my 'buying questions' that I see once a week or so.

That's one of the problems with a mid-sized city. If you like a certain kind of thing, the city gets small. It's just going tobe something that you have to deal with until you start building some success.

WIA