[Dr. Howard]

http://nyti.ms/1rPGNlW

New York times article reports that students don't graduate in 4 years for their bachelors. The statistics they put up show its not even close.

Quote:

At most public universities, only 19 percent of full-time students earn a bachelor’s degree in four years, the report found. Even at state flagship universities — selective, research-intensive institutions — only 36 percent of full-time students complete their bachelor’s degree on time.

Quote:

The problem is even worse at community colleges, where 5 percent of full-time students earned an associate degree within two years, and 15.9 percent earned a one- to two-year certificate on time.

Quote:

“Using these metrics may improve the numbers, but it is costing students and their parents billions of extra dollars — $15,933 more in cost of attendance for every extra year of a public two-year college and $22,826 for every extra year at a public four-year college,”

I have not been in college for a long time but this blows my mind if its true. I was in and out in 4 years and wasn't going to drag my ass to lose a year of freedom and making money.

What they don't show is not only is an extra year a $22k expense but its also an entire year of lost wages.

Does this study reflect the experiences of younger RVF'ers?

[Cattle Rustler]

Fuck what they said. Most don't get it done on time because they're fucking off/around. Not only this, but it's further complicated when their parents give them excuses.

Reasons why they don't get done in 4 years:
- Too much drinking
- Fucking off
- Too much dope
- "Pursuing" their "passion" (fucking around) by doing collectives, music, or "art".
- Messed up finances
- Study Abroad
- Not getting their stuff prioritized
- Work.....as in they place more importance in working now than studying. See above.

I graduated HS in 3 years with 32 college credits.
Completed college (public university) in 3 years.
Graduated with 180 credits.
Total debt, 20K.
3K were forgiven by the State of Texas. Rest were gov't.

Here's what I did:
- Planned the classes I would take from the moment I was freshman
- Commuted
- Found a gig I could work evenings and paid well.
- Took "business foundation" classes at community college. $130 per class instead of $1100-$800.
- Did 30 hours during the summer (10 classes)
- Took college classes in HS.
- No partying or drugs (commuting made it difficult)

The most important part is, I started to plan my degree plan ahead instead of letting an advisor/parent tell me what to do.

I hated being there from 7am to 9pm but at least I'm out. That alone saved me a lot in rent. My parents couldn't afford to pay for dorms and the heavy load kept me from getting a student full-time gig. There are some friends who worked while in school and are still trying to finish their degrees at 25 and 29. We all know how that works out.....

Edit: The key is knowing all the loopholes there is. Some classes double dip into filling major and general requirements. By graduating early I got an additional 3K from the state's education board. All I had to do was fill out some paperwork and send it to Austin.

[Handsome Creepy Eel]

It's similar in Croatia: about 40-45% of all students ever graduate, while only one half of those (so 20-25% of total enrolled) graduate on time.

We usually attribute it to overly difficult exams, corruption and confusion resulting from frequent school reforms, but the real reason is the widespread culture of narcissism and laziness combined with the expectation that everyone must have a university education (whether to be respected or to earn a living, neither is true).

The number of people at my (relatively easy) faculty who were there "just so" and were totally disinterested and/or incompetent for studying at it was mind-boggling, at least 50% of people. I'm amazed that 40% of them even made it to the end, not to mention that I pity the companies that will have to employ them.

[Dr. Howard]

^ way to bear down Rustler. Would you have also said that 80% of your classmates were fucking around so much that they had to take extra time? In my day is was probably 5% of my class that had to do something extra everyone else was getting out on time.

[Cattle Rustler]

Here's the great thing. With community colleges offering online courses one can now do their basics online for cheap and then transfer to a 4 year college.

Check the course offerings for the next semester, check rate my professor, get the easiests professors. That's the planning part.

Now the easy part:
Sign up for 18 hours.

Then do the easy load during the weekends, one week of work done in advance. Then just use the rest of the time to work like a normal being. Afterwards transfer to a regular university and try to do as many online courses for you degree there too.

As a business student I couldn't take upper-class business courses until I had completed my "business intro" courses. I had 3 intro courses left and was not going to settle for 9 hours that semester. So I just switched my major to a liberal arts one, took the upper-level courses while doing the intro courses at the same time. After I had all the requirements done I simply switched back to business again.

[Deluge]

I can't make a direct comparison because I don't live in America and the length/type of bachelor degrees varies a lot here compared to America, but most of my classmates will not finish their degrees on time, and this is at a top tier school. The most common reasons are that a lot of them change their mind about what they want to study, or will have transferred internally into a more competitive area then they could get into based off their high school results. Others have to re-take units they failed, or they took time off from their degree to travel. Some people will take longer because they under-loaded the number of units they took in a semester due to difficulty, I know this is common in Engineering.

No one bats an eyelid for taking an extra semester or two to finish, the majority will need to. One of my friends will end up taking 6 years, she did a year in a business degree, then fucked off for a year to work on Ski resorts in the U.S, then came back to start from scratch in a Physiotherapy degree... That's an extreme case though. The good thing is student debt here isn't charged real interest only adjusted for inflation, plus degrees are quite cheap in the first place. Obviously though there's still the opportunity cost of not starting full-time work till later, but few seem to care about that.

[Days of Broken Arrows]

Colleges probably load up the prerequisites to get more money and make students drag it out.

PS: It's "students" not "student's."

[Cattle Rustler]

(12-03-2014 06:24 AM)Days of Broken Arrows Wrote:  

Colleges probably load up the prerequisites to get more money and make students drag it out.

Or Colleges only offer certain classes during certain semesters.

Or they only offer them at 10am or 2pm, during regular business hours.

Here's the thing, there's another NYT article about it. Colleges make a crap of money in "remediation" courses. Most kids take those courses multiple times and considering most people are "not college-ready" that means most have to take it and they can get a grad student to teach it instead of a professor. Low cost, high profit.

My college had me take "pre-algebra" because I was not college-ready in math. When I signed up to take business math at a community college the advisor there mentioned that I should had not taken pre-algebra as my ACT scores were high enough.

[The Reactionary Tree]

How many students nowadays actually finish their degrees? I remember back in the day (2004), only something like 1 in 4 students actually completed a college degree. Is that still the same or is it higher now?

[The Beast1]

Yup very common. It's hilarious knowing how many students do this especially with the massive glut of student loans.

Don't make the mistake of transferring after the 1st or 2nd semester. Credit transfer is the biggest scam you'll ever see.

College has been one of those regrettable decisions for me. Should have gone to a better school instead of the joke I went to.

[Dr. Howard]

(12-03-2014 06:24 AM)Days of Broken Arrows Wrote:  

Colleges probably load up the prerequisites to get more money and make students drag it out.

PS: It's "students" not "student's."

I saw that after I posted it and thought..."Doc Howard's spelling errors also show the problem with college these days"

[Hades]

I went a similar route to Cattle Rustler.

If you can graduate high school with a lot of college credits then it's pretty easy to get two or even three degrees in four years.

I had a good laugh at the shit talking idiots who couldn't graduate with a Spanish, physiotherapy, or a theater degree inside of four years on graduation day.

Taking that fifth year is getting all too common. In nearly every class I took we'd have at least one or two super seniors.

[wi30]

I'm getting out in 4.5 years. I transferred and they made me take a bunch of extra bullshit gen eds like music and dance appreciation, women's studies, history, and English. I had already finished my general courses at my old school, but not all of them transferred. The reason most people take too long is they fuck around and only take 12 credits per semester. Then they fail one of them and have to re-take it.

While it's mostly the students fault, once you get into higher level courses the school makes it impossible to get into classes you need to graduate. I know some students who couldn't get an override into a class they need because the school only has one instructor teaching a single session in a classroom that only fits 30 students. They make you jump through hoops so they can milk as much money out of you as possible. Then call you begging for cash in 5 years once you've made it.

[The Reactionary Tree]

(12-03-2014 08:37 AM)wi30 Wrote:  

Then call you begging for cash in 5 years once you've made it.

I LOL'd in the face of the people begging for donations from alumni. I was like GTFO you already got 6 figures out of me from earning my doctorate. I will never pay a dime to a university ever again.

In fact, I refuse to even go to college sporting events to support these corrupt institutions.

[The Great Basilisk]

I graduated in 5 and half years
While I am a bad student(never did homework, took some classes 3 times before passing, never put any real effort into any school projects etc.) I also worked for the last 2 years almost full time. School is free in Finland so I didn't have any dept when I graduated. And I was also employed straight out of school with above average salary in Finland.

[Merris]

Could someone please clear the college system up a bit:

-Your bachelors' degree is 4 years, 180 credits? How many hours is one credit approx, for a business uni?

-How do you complete college hours/credits in high school? Is this a common thing?

If this seems a bit odd to me, it might have something to do with the Finnish system:

I graduated from highschool at 19(no university credits, I don't know if you even can do any of them), worked around 7 months, spent a year in conscription, then worked another year (abouts) until entering a business uni. I've been pretty much done with my Bachelors' after 2,5 years, now I'm doing Masters' courses and working part time in a large multinational in my field. The US system seems a bit outlandish to me, especially when you take into account the huge cost of education there and the fact that people can't make 180 credits in 4 years (I'm assuming that one credit isn't very much over 27 h of work on paper, even less so in real life). Would someone shed a bit of light on this?

[Cattle Rustler]

(12-03-2014 11:31 AM)Merris Wrote:  

Could someone please clear the college system up a bit:

-Your bachelors' degree is 4 years, 180 credits? How many hours is one credit approx, for a business uni?

-How do you complete college hours/credits in high school? Is this a common thing?

If this seems a bit odd to me, it might have something to do with the Finnish system:

I graduated from highschool at 19(no university credits, I don't know if you even can do any of them), worked around 7 months, spent a year in conscription, then worked another year (abouts) until entering a business uni. I've been pretty much done with my Bachelors' after 2,5 years, now I'm doing Masters' courses and working part time in a large multinational in my field. The US system seems a bit outlandish to me, especially when you take into account the huge cost of education there and the fact that people can't make 180 credits in 4 years (I'm assuming that one credit isn't very much over 27 h of work on paper, even less so in real life). Would someone shed a bit of light on this?

Most classes are 3 credits, some require labs so they might be 4-5 credits instead.

The number of credits is approximately how many hour a class meets. 3 credit classes meet 3 hours a week on average.

A full course load starts at 12 hours per semester, with the "normal" hours to graduate in 4 years being 15 hours per semester.

Most degrees are 120 credits, or 40 classes.

I just took a shitload of extra classes (around 10) because I had the chance. Spent 2 summers taking 18 classes altogether. That's prohibited though since I did not ask for permission. Either way I would have not gotten permission as you can only take 5 classes each summer. The courses were invalidated, my advisor reprimanded me, and I had to talk to the dean to get those summer courses validated. I never talked to the dean and somehow the classes showed up on my transcript at the end of the semester so somehow someone pulled a string in my favor.

You can take college courses once you turn 16 at a community college. You can take entry-level college classes or classes in trades/bookkeeping. Another way to get college credit is through "advanced" classes and take a test at the end. Certain colleges will take those tests and give you credit depending on the score you got. Most give credit if you got a 4 (B) or 5 (A), and a few give credit for 3s ©, it just shows up as credit received without a letter grade. https://apscore.collegeboard.org/scores

[Merris]

(12-03-2014 11:44 AM)Cattle Rustler Wrote:  

(12-03-2014 11:31 AM)Merris Wrote:  

Could someone please clear the college system up a bit:

-Your bachelors' degree is 4 years, 180 credits? How many hours is one credit approx, for a business uni?

-How do you complete college hours/credits in high school? Is this a common thing?

If this seems a bit odd to me, it might have something to do with the Finnish system:

I graduated from highschool at 19(no university credits, I don't know if you even can do any of them), worked around 7 months, spent a year in conscription, then worked another year (abouts) until entering a business uni. I've been pretty much done with my Bachelors' after 2,5 years, now I'm doing Masters' courses and working part time in a large multinational in my field. The US system seems a bit outlandish to me, especially when you take into account the huge cost of education there and the fact that people can't make 180 credits in 4 years (I'm assuming that one credit isn't very much over 27 h of work on paper, even less so in real life). Would someone shed a bit of light on this?

Most classes are 3 credits, some require labs so they might be 4-5 credits instead.

The number of credits is approximately how many hour a class meets. 3 credit classes meet 3 hours a week on average.

A full course load starts at 12 hours per semester, with the "normal" hours to graduate in 4 years being 15 hours per semester.

Most degrees are 120 credits, or 40 classes.

I just took a shitload of extra classes (around 10) because I had the chance. Spent 2 summers taking 18 classes altogether. That's prohibited though since I did not ask for permission. Either way I would have not gotten permission as you can only take 5 classes each summer. The courses were invalidated, my advisor reprimanded me, and I had to talk to the dean to get those summer courses validated. I never talked to the dean and somehow the classes showed up on my transcript at the end of the semester so somehow someone pulled a string in my favor.

You can take college courses once you turn 16 at a community college. You can take entry-level college classes or classes in trades/bookkeeping. Another way to get college credit is through "advanced" classes and take a test at the end. Certain colleges will take those tests and give you credit depending on the score you got. Most give credit if you got a 4 (B) or 5 (A), and a few give credit for 3s ©, it just shows up as credit received without a letter grade. https://apscore.collegeboard.org/scores

Hm. I think my confusion boils down to the difference in the exam system. Do you have one large exam week per semester? As in, 3 hrs of work for a set amount of weeks per credit + exam. Since we don't have a finals week, so to speak, the workload is calculated a bit differently. Also, classes vary massively on the credit score; from 1 to 8 or 10 credits being the usual range.

[Cattle Rustler]

We got 3 exams: Midterms in October; Semi-finals before thanksgiving; Finals in mid-December. Most of them have the same weight so you're okay with doing bad on one. It's one hour of class per credit, so if you're taking 15 credits you're going to class 15 hours a week.

A couple of syllabi if it makes it easier to understand.

https://faculty.unt.edu/syllabi/32093_15...llabus.pdf
http://www.utdallas.edu/~metin/Or6302/syllabus.pdf

[General Mayhem]

If you are pursuing a liberal arts degree and you can't graduate in 4 years you have got a serious problem.

I've fucked off my entire college career and I will still graduate in 3.5 years.

I can't speak for top tier degrees.

Prolonging college is just prolonging childhood, which is already longer than it should be.

[Mike5055]

Meh. I took 5 years. First off, there were so many bullshit required classes. Those alone equaled a bit over a semester. Then I switched from a Law route to a Business route midway.

It didn't hurt me. I was on a committee that covered my tuition costs and worked another job to pay for everything else. Came out with almost no debt and now I am scooping up my MBA and not paying a penny for it.

It's okay to take a bit longer if you have a solid plan in place and don't simply fuck around the whole time.

[Dr. Howard]

(12-03-2014 12:12 PM)General Mayhem Wrote:  

If you are pursuing a liberal arts degree and you can't graduate in 4 years you have got a serious problem.

I've fucked off my entire college career and I will still graduate in 3.5 years.

I can't speak for top tier degrees.

Prolonging college is just prolonging childhood, which is already longer than it should be.

This may be part of my disbelief. I took a degree that was similar to engineering, we were loaded down with classes (arts majors did 10-14hrs/week and we were doing 33 to 35) and there wasn't much choice as to what I took, it was a nearly straight line progression from start to finish. You couldn't really half ass it in my program or you fell behind an entire year vs. a couple of courses because it was such a regimented progression of classes from one year to the next.

[velkrum]

There is nothing wrong with taking extra time to complete a college degree. NOTHING !!

All that matters is choosing a degree that will get you a job;
The kind of job that pays you the salary needed to live the life you want.
(An extra few years needed to get straight A's is nothing compared to your earning potential for the rest of your life)

Second; Doing things right the first time so you won't have to backtrack.
Some courses are very challenging and require many hours of studying. It would be very difficult to take several upper level science courses and other fluff classes in one semester without having your grades suffer.

If anyone is going into the medical field you know how competitive the environment can be. Academic progress (getting straight A's with a rare B) is now considered (standard) eligible. Anything less than that and you just blew your chances at advancing forward.

Summary:

• Pick a degree that has a ROI that will support the life you envision for yourself.
• Take as much time as you need to do things right and get straight A's.
  Your earning potential is not a sprint to the finish line;
  It is a consistent marathon with a lifetime of reward at the end.

[iop890]

(12-03-2014 06:24 AM)Days of Broken Arrows Wrote:  

Colleges probably load up the prerequisites to get more money and make students drag it out.

Yep, they can pay PhD students peanuts to teach mandatory art, sociology, and Women's studies classes to hundreds of students paying inflated tuition fees. Pretty solid deal for them.

If I don't pay a few hundred dollars to get an art credit before I graduate I won't be able to get my accounting degree.

[WalterBlack]

There’s too much unnecessary bullshit in the US education system. I did my undergrad in the UK, masters in US:

For undergrad - 3 year program. 2 exam times (once before Xmas, once in May/June). No mid term exams. I had about 12hrs/week in classes in my first year, and it down to 9 hours to in the 3rd years. Master’s degrees (grad school) are 1 year programs in UK.

In UK you can’t do classes at community colleges and transfer credits to universities. It’s also VERY difficult to change your major once you’ve started. You have to make sure you study the A-Level exams (taken aged 18) which are relevant to the degree you wish to major in. College was free for all when I went, but now I think it’s about £9k (USD $14k) a year.

A lot of kids who don’t graduate go to college just to fuck around for a year or two – especially kids raised in strict households.

If you study in UK, you can have a Bachelor’s degree by 21, and have a master’s degree aged 22. These degrees have equal value to the US degree on a global scale.