[Sonsowey]

Lebron James has always been an incredible human specimen, but this year has been looking a bit less superhuman. He is aging, of course, but he has also slimmed down.

Some have suggested that this is because he recently got off steroids, and so has lost some muscle and has been brought down to earth a bit.

I do not know anyone who has ever used gear. Those who know, based on physical changes, does it seem like Lebron was likely using gear before and has now stopped? Are there any atheletes in the modern NBA that you would point to as being clearly non-natural?

I have wondered if guys like Duncan or Derek Fisher use T or other things to keep their performance up in old age. Derek Fisher at age 39 looked like this.

[TheFinalEpic]

(11-29-2014 02:03 PM)Sonsowey Wrote:  

Lebron James has always been an incredible human specimen, but this year has been looking a bit less superhuman. He is aging, of course, but he has also slimmed down.

Some have suggested that this is because he recently got off steroids, and so has lost some muscle and has been brought down to earth a bit.

I do not know anyone who has ever used gear. Those who know, based on physical changes, does it seem like Lebron was likely using gear before and has now stopped? Are there any atheletes in the modern NBA that you would point to as being clearly non-natural?

I have wondered if guys like Duncan or Derek Fisher use T or other things to keep their performance up in old age. Derek Fisher at age 39 looked like this.

I don't think the NBA would be the first place I'd look for steroid usage. Try the NFL.

[Sonsowey]

Yea I think in the NFL it is more obvious, but in the NBA Hedo Turkoglu was caught for PEDs so...

[TheFinalEpic]

(11-29-2014 02:19 PM)Sonsowey Wrote:  

Yea I think in the NFL it is more obvious, but in the NBA Hedo Turkoglu was caught for PEDs so...

In all honesty, I think that performance enhancers are used in every sport, in the olympics, and that its just become the norm.

You want to perform at that level? You have to be almost super human. There's no way that those sprinters are running faster than Ben Johnson because we as humans have evolved to run faster.

[rudebwoy]

Top athletes are using next level stuff which none of us have heard of.

Look at the Balco investigation.

[ryanf]

If we're talking about the NFL, it's probably more productive to talk about who is NOT using.

[jayyrod1]

There are an abundance of players in the MLB who've been.busted for roids.

I'm pretty sure baseball sees the most users of PEDS.

[Simeon_Strangelight]

(11-29-2014 02:43 PM)jayyrod1 Wrote:  

There are an abundance of players in the MLB who've been.busted for roids.

I'm pretty sure baseball sees the most users of PEDS.

My neighbor was a pro trainer and professor of physiology - he used to take part in the olympics himself and then trained a national European athletics team for 12 years.

He told me that practically all of them use gear to the max.
In some countries it is more excessive than in others, while some sportsmen just get the best stuff, that can hardly be detected. The few cases which come through are just some fake outrage ones, which either overdid it by being "too successful".
Lance Armstrong and Jan Ullrich come to mind - if those guys let other teams win more often, they likely would still be "pure" sportsmen.

NFL would be nothing without it. The same goes for the NBA - some of those guys are just massive - given their body size - most would not become as big as that.

Still - since almost everyone does it, it is a more or less even playing field. Of course some top guys get more expensive gear, but in order to deserve that you have to show more determination and discipline than the other day.

In the ability play is still more important than the pure ability to run or jump, but of course you cannot stay behind, when everyone else is getting a big physical advantage.

[Pontifex Maximus]

Duncan doesn't need the juice, none of his consistent play style is based on pure athleticism, just perfected footwork and basketball IQ.

It will be players like Rose, Westbrook and Kyrie who will need it after their primes. Their pure explosiveness is their main advantage, but eventually their play styles will need to devolve into an efficient shooter. Rose is driving recklessly like young D Wade, and the Flash now is relying on efficient mid range jumpers.

[Sidney Crosby]

It was a rumour a few years ago that Ovechkin was juicing. I'm sure lots of guys use it during the off season.

[Saweeep]

All of them

[Moma]

(11-29-2014 05:56 PM)thyalmightyrhino Wrote:  

Duncan doesn't need the juice, none of his consistent play style is based on pure athleticism, just perfected footwork and basketball IQ.

It will be players like Rose, Westbrook and Kyrie who will need it after their primes. Their pure explosiveness is their main advantage, but eventually their play styles will need to devolve into an efficient shooter. Rose is driving recklessly like young D Wade, and the Flash now is relying on efficient mid range jumpers.

You think Duncan's game is entirely based on skill? Being able to post up without being shoved right into the cheap seats is no easy thing. Give you an example.

When I lived in the dot, I played a casual pick up game in Flemo against Jamal Magloire. He posted me up and sealed me. I am not a weak man but I found that I could not move his arm to fight through the seal. It LITERALLY felt like a ledge.

Jamal Magloire is not an NBA player known for strength. Just one of the many average post players. So I would not be surprised if they are all on gear..even if it is for durability.

Even Steve Nash could be on gear. I heard someone say that Steve Nash does 360 dunks in practice (two hands, two feet) but doesn't show this in games.

[Parlay44]

You guys are looking at the wrong sport.

[kosko]

Most athletes using gear are fringe guys or older players. Your type-A or type-1A isn't going to need it typically as they are in the 1% of a already small pool of players whom have have genetics and skill sets in the top cohort.

So older guys trying to keep roster spots like Derek Fisher and Hedo make more sense then Lebron James. The NBA has always had dodgy drug testing but I don't believe it is rampant in the sport.

Kobe has done dodgy blood and platette regeneration techniques in Europe on his knees which has prolonged his career, Rose has a dead man's ligament in his knee, Westbrook did odd stuff to come back early, the NBA has its list of werido stuff its players do but I don't believe drugs are all that rampant. Lebron us simply just getting exposed that is all. He dosn't make players better and he is burnt out and weaker from the loss weight. PEDs would of aided Bron in recover, to be at 100% evrey game. Why didn't he pass that stuff to Wade whom needed it more as he couldn't recover quick enough to play full season worth of games.

High stress and muscle fatigue sports such as football and baseball (pitchers) are prime targets for PEDs, also Hockey which has the worst testing in all pro sports has been low key suspected of rampant PED use. For the NFL it has rigid and random testing where even a blunt gets you tossed out. The NFL does not test for HGH though which many suspect is low key issue.

Football is another animal where I do legitly think HGH may be a issue but what also has changed is recruiting and prep. You have monsters from a young age whom a measured and taped and pigeon holed into football. 6 foot 4 freaks at DE whom have small sprinter speed are found young and basically ground into dust and shaped into these football mobsters. It isn't the same how when I played. No way in hell I would even be looked at for my height as a under sized safety, even if I could play. Physical requirements are off the charts now. The NFL literally the top .05% of genetic monsters whom persued sport while young.

But I will say this. There is a recent trend in armchair whining and butthurt attitudes with the general population towards athletes and bodybuilders. Anybody whom is successful is accused of cheating with drugs. People get butthurt because they don't see he same results as they assume to work just as hard as the people they watch.

"I followed Lebrons workout and practice routine. Why am I not as good"

"I've been working out like Mike Rashid for 18 months... Why am I not as big"

Its whining and impatience typical of this generation. These people are top 1% in nurturing genetic potential with HARD WORK and discipline that you can't teach or sell in a e-book. Its a iraational attention to detail which borders on obsession to always improve which is why they are where they are and the messes are where they are. It has been a trend I am seeing and it has been very annoying.

[rudebwoy]

Even with the same gear, most of us still couldn't play on their level.

The guy that gets on my nerves for being a liar, is Lance Armstrong. Something was up a long time ago, other cyclists were dying from take IPO. Yet this clown was painted as some superman.

I watched a documentary on the 88 Seoul Olympics, the infamous 100 metre race where Ben Johnson got busted. They revealed only two runners DID NOT test positive in that same race.

In the 70s it was the East German athletes that set records and then got busted.

Recently it was the Chinese swim team who got caught for doing stuff to their blood, I believe it is blood spinning.

[Kieran]

^ Was it '9.79'? Really good documentary.

I really don't mind drug use in sports. I would 100% do the same if I was in their position and my livelihood depended on my performance.

[kosko]

I would rather keep it clean. Sports is predatory to begin with. Most athletes end up broke soon after their careers because they don't have resources and tools to help then transition and help manage wealth. The drugs will kill then quicker. Look at the "glamorous'' lives wrestlers live post their careers. Chronic pain, maybe they are broke, and they die early. At least give these men a chance at living stable lives after their careers.

[rudebwoy]

I think people under estimate how hard pro wrestling is on your body. They seem to always have back or knees problems from the constant pounding.

The problem is a lot of them get addicted to pain killers and their lifestyle is not the most clean to begin with. Mixing pain killers with alcohol and god knows what other drugs is a short cut to death.

[Foolsgo1d]

Drugs can make you go for longer in practice, at the gym and on game day. Its a fact of life that the human body has limits. It is down to the athlete to decide whether they can push those limits naturally or with help.

I don't really care about it except for when it allows them to win. In sports drugs are rampant in all forms and you cycle it for reasons such as avoiding blood tests. it is why federations have test on samples saved from previous years.

Detection methods are always improving but they need to know what to look for.

If some guy in the gym wants to use drugs to get huge or stronger then so be it.

[Sonsowey]

I just think about the NBA season.

Sometimes these guys play four games in five days. Almost all of them obviously lift heavy to dtay in shape. And of course they are all doing cardio. This on top of actual practice. How can your body's muscles function after all that?

Seems like gear at the very least would be necessary to recover and just play at a high level after cardio, lifting, and practice then a full game.

So in conclusion, Fisher, definitely juicing?

[Neo]

Most of these guys are genetic freaks. Are some using gear? Sure, but it's impossible to say.

A lot of black guys are just naturally jacked with a higher percentage of fast twitch muscle fibers. I have friends I grew up with who've never used gear and were always strong as hell.

I've been lifting and in athletics for more than a decade and while I'm a strong guy and in great shape, I just don't have that type of genetics. I've gone periods with nearly impeccable diet and routine. Even with gear, most likely not possible to get that big with those aesthetics. Everyone has to accept their limitations.

[kosko]

(11-30-2014 03:36 PM)Sonsowey Wrote:  

I just think about the NBA season.

Sometimes these guys play four games in five days. Almost all of them obviously lift heavy to dtay in shape. And of course they are all doing cardio. This on top of actual practice. How can your body's muscles function after all that?

Seems like gear at the very least would be necessary to recover and just play at a high level after cardio, lifting, and practice then a full game.

So in conclusion, Fisher, definitely juicing?

You would be surprised. Weight training isn't mega huge among NBA players (aside from general conditioning) and its generally frowned upon during the grind of the season.

DOMS or that soreness post lifting is going to affect your muscle memory and your shot.

NBA players aren't jacked. Few exceptions existed like Karl Malone whom liked to be stocky and jacked to help him in the paint and in those days he had the power advantage over more swift and speedy dudes like The Dream. Genetic freaks like Wilt Chamberlain could bench press 550lbs but Wilt also fucked 1, 000 women, and scored 100 points, all things nobody has any proof off haha.

Lebron James for how much of a monster he is has a pitifully weak bench press for his size in comparison to NFL players. I remember reading a story if Lebron could play in the NFL and they concluded that he would get smoked in comparing him to Calvin Johnson whom is a bit smaller than Lebron. Calvin was nearly twice as strong, way faster, with a better vertical, and Defenses would toss around Lebron like a rag doll.

Pro practice is weak. Even in the NFL they only wear pads one day a week, the rest of the week is just walk through drills and those don't even start until Wednesday typically. You get Saturday off, Monday off, Film and strategy meetings in between all of those.

Your baseline for the season is set (hopefully) by week one. Many NFL players say you just work to be able to be at your baseline every Sunday (performance peak), the off season you work to better your skills, rehab, build strength/agility, etc but the season is very much set with not a lot more to overload you. NFL players hate all that stuff because it isn't for for them. Defense meetings are boring, your sore until about Wednesday, film session and practice is boring, playing the game on Sunday's the fun part. NFL players say routinely they get payed from Monday-Saturday and they work Sunday's for free because playing the competitive games is what they love.

NBA practices are the same, you do plays, strategy, drills, but it isn't a intensive work session that we would assume, for all for the points you mentioned. The season is long and you don't want to wear your guys down. They are professionals and you can't really teach seasoned players basics any more then what they are willing to work on and learn, that's what the off-season is for. Elite level players put in the extra time, shooting practice each day (Kobe or Ray Allen supposedly does 1000 shots each day practice?), regular players don't put in that extra, hence why they are regular. JR Smith could be elite but can wake up and score 23 with his eyes closed and its always been like that for him. Some dudes don't have to put in the extra work so its never on thier minds. People like Steve Nash whom was always a step slower or not up to same physical levels as the other dudes had to work harder on the little things each day and had to put in the extra hours, each player will have a unique situation.

[civpro]

All of them. In 2014 if you're making money off your body then it's a safe bet you're on gear. The reason is that drug testing is a joke and athletes are super competitive people willing to do whatever it takes.

But that's okay, it's not cheating if everybody does it, and so success comes down to the same thing in the end - genetics and determination.

[Switch]

In American pro sportsI would say PEDs aren't very common anymore. Too much testing and too much punishment if you get caught. Just look at homerun numbers from the 90's and now. These days players hit a fraction of the homers guys in the 90's did. In the NBA, 90% is height and basketball skill, 10% strength. You also got to remember that the top athletes are the .1% of genetics, and those guys actually can get big and look like that off genetics alone. Look to fringe sports like wrestling for PEDs.

[Rutting Elephant]

(11-30-2014 09:59 AM)Moma Wrote:  

Even Steve Nash could be on gear. I heard someone say that Steve Nash does 360 dunks in practice (two hands, two feet) but doesn't show this in games.

This is something I would have to see to believe.