[HighSpeed_LowDrag]

I looked through the forum search function to see if there was a thread dedicated to this subject already but didn't find any, and I figure that's its a topic that's worth its own discussion.

You've all seen those instances when you've been wheeling girls at a bar or club - maybe you'll have just finished telling them some awesome story, and while they're laughing it up you'll see some girl and guy absolutely going at it against a wall or on a couch somewhere nearby. Hands all over each other, sucking face like no one's watching, etc..

What I'm wondering is - do most of you guys think that this increases your likelihood of same-night pulling, or decreases it? I think there are arguments to be made for both sides - on the one hand, you can get her really turned on sexually if you're good at it, and let's be honest, I can't imagine many people really don't like the drunken makeout with a chick shortly after meeting her. On the other hand, it could also mean lowering sexual tension since you're basically showing your hand as to your immediate intentions.

For my part I'm starting to move towards "Team No-Makeout" versus "Team Makeout" since it seems like you build sexual tension better without it - which I think for our purposes is more important. But there is a reasonable argument to be made for the other side.

I've had instances where going for the makeout before pulling has gotten me the bang, and instances where in retrospect, I think it likely led to me losing the bang. What are your thoughts? Is there any sort of hard-and-fast rule that you play by, or is it on a case-by-case basis, or do you just do whatever you feel like?

HSLD

[Dalaran1991]

I'm all for team makeout. The thing is that if a girl kiss/make out with you, she is more invested in you. It might just be minimal investment, but still is. The more invested she is in you, the more she is willing to put work into the interaction.

Furthermore, if a girl is willing to make out there's a high chance she's DTF. Effective screening. If you do it well then it's just about venue transferring her to your place eventually.

It's very difficult to say that you lost the bang because of making out. True she might have had buyer's remorse, but consider if you didn't make out with her, are you willing to take things slow and go on multiple dates? That, and running damage control because you didnt make out is a hell of a lot harder than if you did make out.

Higher level players might be able to get a good read on a girl to decide if it's better to escalate in private, but I think for most people let's play the quick screen quick escalation game until you get somewhere.

[Nascimento]

There is an argument to be made for both sides. Making out in the club can help, but it can also hurt your chances of pulling.

It depends on other factors in my opinion. The girl, her mood that night, you, etc.

The most important thing is to strike when the iron is hot. Use makeouts to build tension. And sometimes no matter what you do, you won't be able to get logistics right or close. Makeouts can be a good sign you've got a good lead, but concluding that they are always a high chance she is DTF or that you will pull her is asking for disappointment.

[Kabal]

Not making out beforehand gives her more plausible deniability to leave with you.

A club make-out increases the chances of an anti-slut-defense-moment when you try to pull her back to your place (or hers).

[Menace]

I lean toward no makeout, but it depends to a large extent on the girl (and the culture). A lot of communication with girls is subtextual and covert. So if you make it obvious by making out that it is getting sexual, plausible deniability is decreased. Also, as you mentioned, sexual tension is released. She got attention from a guy, kissed, and thats enough for her.

I think the real goal to keep in mind is to take her to the place where you want to have sex with her, be it a hotel, her house, the bathroom, whatever. That's what you need to focus on. I think making out can have the perverse effect of fooling your mind into thinking you've gotten somewhere, or you're progressing, but that's a red herring.

[Noir]

delete double post.

[Noir]

(11-23-2014 12:37 PM)Kabal Wrote:  

Not making out beforehand gives her more plausible deniability to leave with you.

A club make-out increases the chances of an anti-slut-defense-moment when you try to pull her back to your place (or hers).

Depends... All the girls I banged, I could have kissed in the club but not all girls I kissed I could have banged. The factors are external (mood, hornyness, location etc.)

Therefore, for me, it really doesn't make a difference. I have learned to distinguish pretty fast which girls want to just make out and go home and which ones are down to fuck on the same night. Each girl has her own 'uses' (long term social media value bang vs same night excitement bang). The former usually are the elite ones who won't go home with you immediately anyways unless you're super baller/run shit/big fish in a small pond.

If you want to be pedantic, club make-outs to lays would be difficult, based on my experience if, in the club, you are:

a) making out in front of friends (cockblock power)
b) too early i.e. first club/10am
c) in large groups (both of you)
d) you're making out with other girls and can be seen

i.e. logistics and rudimentary timing

Personally, I always kiss. I tease on the second and lean back. I am kissing and whispering dirty shit in her ear, making her want more. It's all about the vibe and amping up the sexual energy/bubble.

It's not checkpoints and I am doing it because I want to, not following a recipe. Make her feel wanted, make her want to come with me.

Women aren't stupid, they know you wanna fuck. Makeout or not, when I am bringing her home, it is for a reason; she just wants me to take the responsibility. It is my fault, she doesn't usually go home with guys or make out in the club. Her plausible deniability is replaced by her surrender of responsibility. This is your goal and why I disagree with old school texts on game (I used to do this but never made a difference for me)

Timing is key, not too long after make out but not too short either. Once I make out with her, I will suss out the logistics pretty fast and make a decision. I already know the basics but rather what her friends/group or my friends/group is feeling at the moment to see what the best option and timewindow is.

Honestly, I used to think with-holding was good but my experience is different.

I would rather make-out and then withdraw on a high point to spike her emotions (either positively or negatively) instead of not escalating at all (how can you resist)

Menace: I am past the point of making it obvious that it is getting sexual. Just make her feel sexual and it's on. I am assuming she wants to fuck me.

disclaimer #1: this is non-verbal until make out + a few whispering in her ear after a bit of kissing i.e. you can't help yourself she is so xyz, it is your fault/i've wanted to tear your clothes off all night and then just non-verbal and eye contact to communicate that afterwards. Don't keep saying it.

disclaimer #2: expect 'you're a player' shit test if you're being overly sexual. (my response: 'no YOU'RE a player!!)


OP: If you lost the bang, it's not because of the makeout (unless you're a bad kisser). She probably wasn't going to bang you anyways, look elsewhere for chinks in your armor.

[456]

I wrote this in the French Kissing thread, but it applies to a venue-makeout as well.

(11-19-2014 11:03 AM)456 Wrote:  

Yeah, kissing is quite intimate, yet it's one of the first "moves" we make sexually with a chick.

For a new girl, I like to limit the tongue contact to short touches / teases, rather than slobbering... it's kind of a mini-push-pull thing that they find sexy. Also light lip biting. The kiss is like a coded communication of what's to come!

I think some of the advice (Tuth was it?) about not kissing on the first date (until you're at the bang location) could be revised to "don't kiss at 100% -- keep it at like 25% but make sure the slight tongue contact is sending the right "i'ma rock your world" message and not a "omg omg kissing!" or "devouring you now!" message.

That is to say, if you are going to make out, do it with efficiency! Make the most sexual tension and "heating her up" possible with the least amount of saliva, extended contact, or "wow I love kissing" mentality.

[WestIndianArchie]

There are a bunch of factors
- age
- sluttiness/inexperience
- how public the display of affection is
- alcohol/drugs/mind altered states
- environment
- who initiates
- the hotness/heaviness of the make out

Based on my experience it's a crap shoot.

You can push for it, and win the girl, or lose the girl.

You can chill, and lose the girl for not being aggressive enough.

This is one of the major problems with molding your own behavior to elicit favorable behavior from women. What are you gonna do though? It's not like you can be some stoic James Bond type, glance at a 10, and find yourself balls deep 30 minutes later.

I think the only place where I know/I've heard that you need to make out with a chick quickly is Brazil.

WIA

[UroboricForms]

You know, I never really looked at it this way before. Interesting. What I will say is that the last time I did that, it worked.

[XXL]

(11-23-2014 10:47 AM)HighSpeed_LowDrag Wrote:  

What I'm wondering is - do most of you guys think that this increases your likelihood of same-night pulling, or decreases it?

Screening, girl's availability and place to go are the most important for pulling same night. If those things are in your favor then making out is almost irrelevant. When she's down and you're down and you got the place to go together then what's the difference really.

My personal rule is that if it's clearly on between us, we're in the our own little bubble and I know I can leave very soon and we got place to go then I kiss to amp it up and end up in private place faster. If I know it's not possible soon then I don't kiss to keep the tension alive for next meeting. Light subtle kisses though are fine anywhere in my opinion.

[kaotic]

If it's a first date and she refuses to come over (which rarely happens) I'll always go for the kiss and escalate as far as I can.

If it's a first date and she agrees to bounce to my pad, I won't make a move until she's laying on my bed, then it's all over.

I don't usually do clubs, but if I am, I'm already wasted, so yes of course I'll go for the make out and escalate as much as I can.

If it's at a bar and I'm wasted usually my game is on autopilot and I won't.

I've had cases where a girl is buzzed and she'll start being touchy feely and want to make out, in that situation I go with the flow.

[DarkTriad]

I'm Team (light) Makeout. Going hot and heavy for a long time can be counterproductive, no contact early leaves a lack of intimacy that can make it hard to escalate to finish later. Kiss and make out for a while, then pull away. Leave her wanting more, then get her on her own.

[CimbomluBkk]

Only once in my life I made out with a girl that I met in a club the same day, and it resulted in a bang. But bear in mind I have very major AA issues, and she was the one who approached me . In my limited experience, I think you should go for the make out to build sexual tension.

[Roosh]

If she wants to be kissed, and you're not forcing it, it can do a better job of creating a sexual mood where she wants sex. It gets her horny if your kissing is good.

If she has a boyfriend, I find that trying to kiss her beforehand can hurt your odds of getting her back, because she knows you will try for sex and agreeing to come over to your place will be like "cheating" to her. That increases your chance, however, of getting her back and getting nothing.

[Merenguero]

I'm having some trouble understanding this thread, but in my experience, the makeout in the club thing doesn't matter too much. The reason why I say this is that I have had many makeouts in clubs that didn't go any further and I have gone home with many girls who I didn't touch in the club who I ended up having sex with. It all depends on several factors. I think WIA put it very well. The makeout in the club failures generally happen when the girl disappears after the makeout without giving me her number. I don't know if this is personal to me, but I very rarely initiate or escalate the physical contact. If a makeout happens in the club, the girl almost always initiates it and if she wants to leave with me, she either invites me to where she lives/stays or asks to go to where I live/stay. Often when we get there, the girls either ask me if I have a condom or just start taking their clothes off. One time months ago, I invited a girl to the hotel where I was staying and I both initiated and escalated. That was the exception.

[Rawmeo]

I am in the team "No Makeout". If you are making out and offer her to bounce to your place, there is a chance that it will trigger the "bitch shield" defence, because she knows that the only logical choice is to have sex with you with coming to your place.

Just assess if she seems DTF before bouncing to your place, and you should be good to go.

[Noir]

(11-23-2014 10:51 PM)Merenguero Wrote:  

I don't know if this is personal to me, but I very rarely initiate or escalate the physical contact. If a makeout happens in the club, the girl almost always initiates it and if she wants to leave with me, she either invites me to where she lives/stays or asks to go to where I live/stay. Often when we get there, the girls either ask me if I have a condom or just start taking their clothes off. One time months ago, I invited a girl to the hotel where I was staying and I both initiated and escalated. That was the exception.

This is really interesting, so do you seldom lead?

Thing is my experience has been different. I can pull the James Bond approach in social circles but does your example apply to same night lays?

I always have to initially lead in the beginning and then they will take over. If they do, it is fine but I am always 'channeling the direction' (if it was a water stream I don't stop, just redirect). Do you do something similar?

Apologies if I am misinterpreting this but I am really curious and your game seems tight from your other posts.

Thanks.

[Suits]

(11-24-2014 02:59 AM)alex3948 Wrote:  

I am in the team "No Makeout". If you are making out and offer her to bounce to your place, there is a chance that it will trigger the "bitch shield" defence, because she knows that the only logical choice is to have sex with you with coming to your place.

Just assess if she seems DTF before bouncing to your place, and you should be good to go.

Cosigned.

Make-outs in clubs can be fun.

But if you are shooting for the lay, better to keep sexual tension on high by not kissing and help her retain plausible deniability when you bounce to your place to "watch a movie." Heh.

[HighSpeed_LowDrag]

^ Maybe a bit of clarification's in order. I think there's a reasonable difference between a 3-5 second kiss and an extended makeout/grope sesh. The first, I think is completely necessary is almost all cases just to keep moving up the escalation ladder. But I'm starting to wonder what a makeout adds that a kiss doesn't without revealing your intentions too overtly.

HSLD

[civpro]

Needless to say, this is heavily dependent on location. When 95% of girls in a club where you live have no intention of exchanging numbers with a guy, much less "bouncing" with him anywhere after the club, much even less bouncing with him to fuck him, the club makeout becomes necessary as a 'confirmation'.

[Travesty]

Both work.

Depends on what works for you.

The sluttier, drunker, hornier, away from home, or anonymous a girl is the more public makeouts will work.

The more sober, conversationalist, in her hometown, less anonymous, around her friends that will judge her ... better to "surprise bitch" her in private and keep adding alcohol to the equation.