[Basil Ransom]

Okcupid had a graph showing how women rate the average man as very below average in looks, and the 80th percentile man as average, plus a graph showing men rating average women as average and so on.

Men in America are largely just like women when it comes to evaluating other men - they are scared to describe other men as above average, as good looking, as handsome, unless they are exceptionally so. They are insecure and feel that it somehow bolsters their own standing by denying that other men are good looking. It also stems from a culture of man hating where men are held to be ugly boors - for a man to be held out as handsome, he must be impossibly so, whereas a girl must slather on some makeup and not be morbidly obese. Foreign women, especially older ones, are a welcome exception in praising men for their looks I've noticed. I imagine more traditional, feminine women are similar.

Just like the women, men often describe average looking men as below average. Roosh is definitely solidly above average, and Roissy is pretty handsome. Men can also be bold or imposing in appearance, stately or grave, in a way that is attractive. If you think the 2/10 WNB crowd is bad, just wait til they turn their eye towards men.

Relevant:
http://www.returnofkings.com/6382/why-so-ugly

[germanico]

Do you find yourself spending a lot of time thinking about other men's looks?

[WestIndianArchie]

(09-16-2014 08:54 PM)germanico Wrote:  

Do you find yourself spending a lot of time thinking about other men's looks?

Yes all the time Germanico.

Would you like to exchange pics?

WIA

[WestIndianArchie]

(09-16-2014 05:35 PM)Roosh Wrote:  

Not sure what the point of this thread is either.

Game gurus set limits on what you (the reader) can achieve, even though they themselves achieve the "impossible", despite having the same flaws as most readers.

The takeaway is that a lot of how game gurus talk about game/attraction needs to be recalibrated/revised based on information that is abundantly clear.

WIA

[WestIndianArchie]

(09-16-2014 07:10 PM)RawGod Wrote:  

Seems you're casting wide net, WIA. For example: Owen Cook has been on a long, well-documented journey since 2002. These days he's more about self-improvement than focusing on chicks. I don't doubt he gets girls, but he would probably admit that less experienced but younger and better-looking guys can get as good or better results than him. Don't see him pulling the wool over anyone's eyes.

Then there's Krauser, also documented his results pretty well. No snake oil there either. Buy his books or don't buy them.

Then there are indeed a bunch of lesser and sometimes pretty shady looking dudes, some of whom are probably losers or charlatans. That's the way it goes.

If you were born short/ugly and reached adulthood being awkward you will never have the "cool" air of some other guys. That's the hand you were dealt. You can still get good results with girls and in life, and you can find role models and teachers who fit your needs.

"it's this hand you were dealt" bullshit that i'm fighting.

It's bullshit.

Anyone preaching that shit to you is a god damned liar.

The truth is these gurus were dealt bad hands.
They tell their audience that the audience was dealt a bad hand.
The gurus say, "You can only go so far, so high"

That you're limited by your genetics, upbringing, culture, or some other irrelevant bullshit.

Yet somehow they themselves, who have been dealt bad hands, BANG HOT CHICKS.

   

^this dude, he clearly got dealt a bad hand.
His maximization is wearing a black t-shirt.
He's not even skinny fat, he's overweight.
The goofy hair cut doesn't help.
And he's in London, so he can't even lean on his accent like he could here int he states.

But he bangs good looking chicks. (according to the people in the biz, I don't know this dude from Adam)

So tell me again about this mystery bad hand that everyone in this community keeps talking about.

Tell me about about this glass pussy ceiling.

It's bullshit.
The logic and rationale behind this kind of thinking is bullshit too.

And you guys want to focus on Krauser, the same deterministic bs is in Roissy's work, is in Rollo Tomassi's work et cetera.

Same bullshit is encapsulated in that that sniper thread.

WIA

[YoungBlood]

(09-16-2014 09:18 PM)WestIndianArchie Wrote:  

(09-16-2014 05:35 PM)Roosh Wrote:  

Not sure what the point of this thread is either.

Game gurus set limits on what you (the reader) can achieve, even though they themselves achieve the "impossible", despite having the same flaws as most readers.

The takeaway is that a lot of how game gurus talk about game/attraction needs to be recalibrated/revised based on information that is abundantly clear.

WIA

My guess is that some "gurus" do over-exaggerate their successes in order to sell their products. I mean, didn't someone get called out a few months back for plagiarizing some material on his website?

But either way, most men need to understand that game can only take them so far.

The reason being?

Physicality does matter.

[rpg]

All the women in the world could never agree on what a good looking man is. They make no sense. They do like money, power and fame at least they can agree on that. They love a man in uniform for some weird ass reason I have yet to figure out.

[RawGod]

(09-16-2014 09:35 PM)WestIndianArchie Wrote:  

(09-16-2014 07:10 PM)RawGod Wrote:  

Seems you're casting wide net, WIA. For example: Owen Cook has been on a long, well-documented journey since 2002. These days he's more about self-improvement than focusing on chicks. I don't doubt he gets girls, but he would probably admit that less experienced but younger and better-looking guys can get as good or better results than him. Don't see him pulling the wool over anyone's eyes.

Then there's Krauser, also documented his results pretty well. No snake oil there either. Buy his books or don't buy them.

Then there are indeed a bunch of lesser and sometimes pretty shady looking dudes, some of whom are probably losers or charlatans. That's the way it goes.

If you were born short/ugly and reached adulthood being awkward you will never have the "cool" air of some other guys. That's the hand you were dealt. You can still get good results with girls and in life, and you can find role models and teachers who fit your needs.

"it's this hand you were dealt" bullshit that i'm fighting.

It's bullshit.

Anyone preaching that shit to you is a god damned liar.

The truth is these gurus were dealt bad hands.
They tell their audience that the audience was dealt a bad hand.
The gurus say, "You can only go so far, so high"

That you're limited by your genetics, upbringing, culture, or some other irrelevant bullshit.

Yet somehow they themselves, who have been dealt bad hands, BANG HOT CHICKS.



^this dude, he clearly got dealt a bad hand.
His maximization is wearing a black t-shirt.
He's not even skinny fat, he's overweight.
The goofy hair cut doesn't help.
And he's in London, so he can't even lean on his accent like he could here int he states.

But he bangs good looking chicks. (according to the people in the biz, I don't know this dude from Adam)

So tell me again about this mystery bad hand that everyone in this community keeps talking about.

Tell me about about this glass pussy ceiling.

It's bullshit.
The logic and rationale behind this kind of thinking is bullshit too.

And you guys want to focus on Krauser, the same deterministic bs is in Roissy's work, is in Rollo Tomassi's work et cetera.

Same bullshit is encapsulated in that that sniper thread.

WIA

Not quite sure what you're railing against.
I'm a bit of a geek (in my own head and IQ too high to relate to a lot of people - not bragging, this is just a fact), small build, and have some facial flaws. I can relate to Owen Cook more than some of my natural friends who have been killing it since high school or Paul Janka. I like watching Tyler's videos.

There are lots of people like me.

I'm not saying there's a glass pussy ceiling. Just different people having different experiences.

[Captain Gh]

Hey keep in mind WIA that even the best looking guru out there Janka has admitted that his best overall success ratio is around 11% on numbers that he collects. So just imagine how many approaches it takes to get a constant flow of # even for Jenka?

By thinking about it that way you can assume that the difference between an ok looking Guru like Krauser and Roosh and an ex PUAHATE member is sheer determination and will. I'm definitely biased since i'm a Krauser and Torerro fan on the daygame side.

Both of them have always kept it real by managing the expectations of their students. By you claiming that those limitations on results are BS is potentially dangerous for a newbie that might believe in the quick fix and burn himself out of game and become a new Elliot Rodgers.

These guys are the very best. Their results are above the norm. Your opinion is the equivalent of saying that since Tom Brady is a future Hall of Famer that was drafted in the 3rd Round, to now expect most of the QB's coming out of the 3rd to have HOF success as well?

Not gonna happen! There's 1 Brady, 1 Torerro and 1 Krauser. They became the way they are but putting in a lot of time approaching and learning by themselves on the streets. I fall in and out of game once in a while, and to think that guys like Torerro and Tyler use to go out everyday straight to approach girl might have been to much, but you can't deny their will and that's the thing that made them get good!

[ThePrinceOfDixie]

I feel that this thread is going to become an above average looks guys versus below average/average looking guys thread.

I greatly sympathize with the idea that "game (particularly inner game) is the great equalizer." That said looks of course matter in one way or another. However I see a lot of "my way is better because it's what works for me", going on here. This is a forum for red-pill men/ players lets not get at each others throats over the differences in methods. It comes to semantics; for instance what is great game for a guy in an Atlanta club is not great game for a London day gamer. It gets chopped up to technicalities but everyone is diffrent as is every situation.

@WIA I say this with humility as your a senior member and I am not but would you provide links and a detailed list of grevinces related to the guys you mentioned in your OP? Perhaps I failed to understand your exact concerns.

[xpatplayer]

Agree with WIA. Confidence, good game and half-decent style is all you need. Knowing you can bang a chick is half the game. Hard to put into words, but I know what he's getting at. Most guys go for girls who look as good or as bad as they do, even though girls don't care about looks nearly half as much as men.

[Handsome Creepy Eel]

The reason best game advice comes from guys that aren't blessed with good looks has nothing to do with them pulling models or other personal results. It is because any success that they achieve is more a result of careful observation and determination, and less a result of things "just happening". And there can be no teaching without dispassionate insight.

For the record, I have never pulled a model nor have claimed to have pulled one, but plenty of people who know me have thanked me for doing it with what I taught them ;-)

[Duke Castile]

(09-16-2014 11:21 PM)Captain Gh Wrote:  

Hey keep in mind WIA that even the best looking guru out there Janka has admitted that his best overall success ratio is around 11% on numbers that he collects. So just imagine how many approaches it takes to get a constant flow of # even for Jenka?

By thinking about it that way you can assume that the difference between an ok looking Guru like Krauser and Roosh and an ex PUAHATE member is sheer determination and will. I'm definitely biased since i'm a Krauser and Torerro fan on the daygame side.

Both of them have always kept it real by managing the expectations of their students. By you claiming that those limitations on results are BS is potentially dangerous for a newbie that might believe in the quick fix and burn himself out of game and become a new Elliot Rodgers.

These guys are the very best. Their results are above the norm. Your opinion is the equivalent of saying that since Tom Brady is a future Hall of Famer that was drafted in the 3rd Round, to now expect most of the QB's coming out of the 3rd to have HOF success as well?

Not gonna happen! There's 1 Brady, 1 Torerro and 1 Krauser. They became the way they are but putting in a lot of time approaching and learning by themselves on the streets. I fall in and out of game once in a while, and to think that guys like Torerro and Tyler use to go out everyday straight to approach girl might have been to much, but you can't deny their will and that's the thing that made them get good!

This makes sense to me.

I think the "limitations" WIA is focusing on is more about expectation management.

These great girls that are so "above" them on the smv scale are not consistent and so many of these gurus are playing both sides of the coin.

They'll let you think they are smashing upper tier girls consistently to a point but then if their audience starts thinking they can read one of their books and replicate that perceived success then they will have a bunch of dissatisfied customers won't they?

On a side note, I've never been good at judging a man's looks.

Willem Dafoe for example had a really cool looking face to me, i like the lines in his cheaks, its interesting, has character, and if he wasn't an actor I'd want to start a conversation with him to hear his story.

In the same way I think Roosh has a distinctive look that comes off as provocative to women. He looks like an athletic scholar.

Krauser looks average and unassuming, but the limited things I've seen of him that's his angle. Non threatening and willing to approach. I think his style probably works well for most guys that look like him.

That style wouldn't work well for me at all. It would come off as lowering my value.

That Yad fellow on the other hand has a very punchable face. I watched a video of him once which I can't even remember what happened. He was that forgettable.

Tuthmosis can say it's about average men with above average results are the best teachers but every average guy is looking at naturals to try and emulate their confidence and charisma.

I think at the end of the day this is about what style works best for you, even though little things can be taken away from many guys, there are few one size fits all teachers.

I disagree that there are not ceilings for most men.

Everyone cannot be Tom Brady and Krauser is no Tom Brady.

I think this is a healthy thread because it brings up topics that should be explored, this is good for dialogue and understanding.

I have a girl with her arms wrapped around me as I write this. Many would consider her to be upper tier.

I just wiped a booger on her arm and she said "oh you're so disgusting baby"!

I'm certain that is not a universal move that all men learning game should do but I find it to be incredibly effective in bonding a girl to you and making her feel special.

[Giovonny]

I think working on our looks is the most underrated aspect of "game" development.

So often, we focus on openers, approaching, conversation, etc. Many times, these things are not as important diet, fashion, exercise, grooming, body language, etc.

I feel that many of us should focus more on improving our physical presentation

I didn't start getting consistent results until I learned how to dress, got a good hair cut, added some muscle to my frame, and started grooming with more attention to detail. White teeth and clean shoes helped my game.

These things are often easier and less time consuming than working on more cerebral aspects of game.

The ROI on these physical improvements can can be seen and experienced immediately.

Almost any guy can get himself into the 6-7 range if he just has a flat stomach, a little muscle, clean, fitted clothes, nice shoes, hair, smile, etc.

I often think that it's better to start with this stuff instead of the other conversational stuff. This stuff can be measured every day.

[Cattle Rustler]

(09-17-2014 02:04 PM)Giovonny Wrote:  

I think working on our looks is the most underrated aspect of "game" development.

So often, we focus on openers, approaching, conversation, etc. Many times, these things are not as important diet, fashion, exercise, grooming, body language, etc.

I feel that many of us should focus more on improving our physical presentation

I didn't start getting consistent results until I learned how to dress, got a good hair cut, added some muscle to my frame, and started grooming with more attention to detail. White teeth and clean shoes helped my game.

These things are often easier and less time consuming than working on more cerebral aspects of game.

The ROI on these physical improvements can can be seen and experienced immediately.

Almost any guy can get himself into the 6-7 range if he just has a flat stomach, a little muscle, clean, fitted clothes, nice shoes, hair, smile, etc.

I often think that it's better to start with this stuff instead of the other conversational stuff. This stuff can be measured every day.

This. First impressions count.

Try walking up to a 100 broads with a pot belly, acne, dirty sneakers and a shirt with holes.

Then see which one guy gets a better response.

[Moma]

One of my <insert family member> suggested cranking out 100 pushups before going on a hunt. This is as mandatory as wiping your ass after taking a shyt.

If you do this, you will incur two benefits. One, your body will look stronger and two, you will pique a prospective's lizard's sexual interest more.

You can do a regular 100 in the morning before you leave the house. Then if you are planning to go out and socialise and you suspect there will be lizards present, drop and crank out 100.

That goes towards addressing the body composition issues for even the most broke player.

[TigerMandingo]

(09-17-2014 04:41 PM)Moma Wrote:  

Then if you are planning to go out and socialise and you suspect there will be lizards present, drop and crank out 100.

That goes towards addressing the body composition issues for even the most broke player.

The vast majority of guys will need at least 2 sets to crank out 100 pushups, so 50 would actually be more reasonable. But other than that, I agree.

[Moma]

(09-17-2014 05:53 PM)Cunnilinguist Wrote:  

(09-17-2014 04:41 PM)Moma Wrote:  

Then if you are planning to go out and socialise and you suspect there will be lizards present, drop and crank out 100.

That goes towards addressing the body composition issues for even the most broke player.

The vast majority of guys will need at least 2 sets to crank out 100 pushups, so 50 would actually be more reasonable. But other than that, I agree.

I didn't mean 100 straight, as many as it takes to get to 100 total. Many guys should do it in 5 sets..it doesn't matter..let 100 be the end goal before throwing on the Ed Hardy shirt.

[BadWolf]

Breaking the game:

How the fvck do these guys all have hot girlfriends?

Quitters never win.

Winners never quit.

Game recognized.

[Duke Castile]

I havent watched the videos badwolf but the first guy just looks English, probably relies in his accent

[Simeon_Strangelight]

(09-17-2014 07:15 PM)BadWolf Wrote:  

Breaking the game:

How the fvck do these guys all have hot girlfriends?

1. The first guy with the facial deformity is a male 2-3 (because he is slim at least).
He would likely tank as a Player no matter what except for immense Fame/Wealth.

BUT in a LTR you can truly get a lot of girls. Short term mating & plenty of sexual attraction is one thing - long term mating is another thing.

2. Yeah - he is on a different category there. But again - women love the personality the more, there are still some good girls out there & she knows that he will never cheat on her or walk out on her. Also some women have a deep psychological need to take care of someone.

3. Guys in wheelchairs again can get hot LTRs - but being an effective Player - that is another matter.

[LemonDrink]

These guys are extremes in every sense. While you feel sorry for their predicament , most people in their situation would not pull it off. Its like saying, if so and so is a multi millionaire why isn't everybody else likewise?

(09-17-2014 07:15 PM)BadWolf Wrote:  

Breaking the game:

How the fvck do these guys all have hot girlfriends?

[Simeon_Strangelight]

(09-18-2014 03:26 AM)LemonDrink Wrote:  

These guys are extremes in every sense. While you feel sorry for their predicament , most people in their situation would not pull it off. Its like saying, if so and so is a multi millionaire why isn't everybody else likewise?

Yes - and getting a girlfriend or wife is a totally highly different set-up than banging girls as hot as their wives on a weekly or monthly basis.

[BadWolf]

The idea is the same. Most people in our predicament are also not 'pulling it off'. You have to be exceptional in all that you do if you want exceptional results. The problem is not that most guys are ugly, the problem is that most guys are lazy. There is a different between a half assessed job at pickup and being fully focused... I really don't think it has anything to do with looks.