[FretDancer]

Im sure there are quite a few player programmers around here, I'd really love to get to know you around here, would be nice to get some good tips and advice because I've been wanting to work as a programmer online.

Problem is, I don't know where to start. I know I'm not the best programmer out there, but I know I can sell what I do, I just don't know how/where to find the people who could need my work.

I'm 20 years old and lately I just been dying to earn cash doing what I like to do, but I've haven't been lucky so far, I want to change that.

So, it would be nice to get to know the programmers around this community, share knowledge, tips, just about anything to help each other, I'd really appreciate it.

[skulled]

I am a programmer myself and have been doing this for around 7 years now.

Its good money actually if you are good at it, and can carve a niche out for yourself. Just freelancing on small time gigs can get you around $1,000 or so, with you having to spend say 30 hour or so a month.

Although it is a great source of secondary income, there is a big difference between doing it part time for extra income and doing programming full time. For one thing, it is not necessarily the most glamorous job unless you roll out a killer product as a startup and are talking big numbers. The other thing is, it is extremely time consuming to say the least to be a full time programmer.

Do you have any prior programming experience? What languages/platforms have you worked with and are proficient in? What is your aim with programming? Are you looking in to it as a part time/secondary income perspective or are you thinking about getting in to it full time?

[FretDancer]

Hey skulled, my aim is making programming full time, since thats basically what my career is about, although if I manage to build my own company I doubt I will keep programming full time.

I've worked with languages such as JAVA, C++, Visual Basic, and HTML. This coming April I'll be starting to learn some Python with Django framework, also XML combined with Silverlight for web applications.

In my current position I'm really just interested in earning enough money to begin my traveling experience, which is what I been wanting to do since last year. Probably just earn enough to cover flight, living and food expenses

[oldnemesis]

(03-20-2011 12:04 AM)FretDancer Wrote:  

Im sure there are quite a few player programmers around here, I'd really love to get to know you around here, would be nice to get some good tips and advice because I've been wanting to work as a programmer online.

Not different from any other job - the more skills and experience you have, the easier it is for you.

Quote:

Problem is, I don't know where to start. I know I'm not the best programmer out there, but I know I can sell what I do, I just don't know how/where to find the people who could need my work.
I'm 20 years old and lately I just been dying to earn cash doing what I like to do, but I've haven't been lucky so far, I want to change that.

Do you have a resume?
Is it posted online, on a job board or just on your web site?
How many calls/emails from recruiters are you getting in a week?

Quote:

I've worked with languages such as JAVA, C++, Visual Basic, and HTML. This coming April I'll be starting to learn some Python with Django framework, also XML combined with Silverlight for web applications.

This sounds like you're trying to learn a little bit of everything. Don't do it. You will be competing with an army of Indian programmers who all do the same. Learn one, two languages max, but do it well. If you really into Java/C++, I'd stick with those as they're harder to master, and they will cover at least one mobile platform (Android).
If you're Microsoft fan, then C# and Silverlight may be your way to go.

Visual Basic is a joke, don't even mention it. And HTML? Are you programmer or Web designer?

[skulled]

As oldnemesis pointed out, it seems like you are trying to learn too many things, and a lot of them are not even connected since they are all different platforms, so that perhaps is not such a good idea.

Java/C++ are good to know, but honestly speaking they aren't going to be extremely helpful unless you want to become a cog in the wheel of a big corporation/enterprise with a thousand other (mostly asian) Java/C++ programmers. That said, it is good to have a solid foundation of these languages and make sure you have some sort of fluency in them, even if not that good.

Your best bet is to go with Python/Django as you pointed out that you are going to learn, and/or with Ruby/Rails which are very similar. Learning both of them would be a great advantage, and it will not be that hard since both languages have a number of similarities. Both are open source languages/frameworks and there is a big demand for both at this point.

I do disagree with oldnemesis on his point about HTML though. I think it would serve you very well to be at least competent in HTML (especially HTML5) and some Javascript and CSS. Programming has been turned on its head in the recent years due to surge into applications becoming more mobile and browser based, as opposed to being Desktop based. So any experience/fluency you have in HTML, Javascript, CSS will work to your advantage in terms of web and mobile applications.

One thing though, you still want to master Python/Django and/or Ruby/Rails to a great extent, and have secondary level skills in HTML, Javascript & CSS. So focus more on learning the core languages, and pick up the rest of them to fill up your arsenal.

[oldnemesis]

(03-21-2011 04:42 AM)skulled Wrote:  

Java/C++ are good to know, but honestly speaking they aren't going to be extremely helpful unless you want to become a cog in the wheel of a big corporation/enterprise with a thousand other (mostly asian) Java/C++ programmers.

Could you please explain? There are a lot of startups hiring C++ and Java developers right now. I really doubt any of them have even twenty developers, not to speak about thousands. Also Java is widely used for mobile applications (Android), which are typically small team projects. A lot of them are one person projects.

Quote:

Your best bet is to go with Python/Django as you pointed out that you are going to learn, and/or with Ruby/Rails which are very similar. Learning both of them would be a great advantage, and it will not be that hard since both languages have a number of similarities. Both are open source languages/frameworks and there is a big demand for both at this point.

And both have very limited applicability. Basically everything you can do in Python/Ruby you can do in C++/Java. The opposite is not true. Speaking about commercial software development, this means no GUI apps, no standalone server apps, no math crunching apps (like Photoshop, video encoding/decoding etc), no kernel extensions. Basically you're limiting yourself to small/medium scale Web backends, which is a) not a huge market and b) does not pay a lot.

Quote:

I do disagree with oldnemesis on his point about HTML though. I think it would serve you very well to be at least competent in HTML (especially HTML5) and some Javascript and CSS.

I do not know what does "competent" mean. Read a book? Designed a personal site? I'd say unless one have designed commercial web sites for at least a year, it carries very little value besides a line in resume (which all Indian programmers will also have).

And HTML5??? How many browsers today support a full set of HTML5 features? I really doubt there will be HTML5-only commercial web sites in next 5 years. Clients still require IE6/NN4 compatibility for a lot of international web sites.

Quote:

Programming has been turned on its head in the recent years due to surge into applications becoming more mobile and browser based, as opposed to being Desktop based.

It did not "turn its head", it expanded. You still have MS Office and Libre/OpenOffice as well as Google Docs, it did not get away. Things like Paypal or eBay never been desktop apps. A lot of major web apps are not written in Ruby/Python (google? ebay? paypal?). And most mobile apps have nothing to do with HTML.

Quote:

So any experience/fluency you have in HTML, Javascript, CSS will work to your advantage in terms of web and mobile applications.

I have no idea how HTML/CSS/JS would be used for mobile applications. I've developed two so far, and did not use any HTML there.

[skulled]

oldnemesis Wrote:

Could you please explain? There are a lot of startups hiring C++ and Java developers right now. I really doubt any of them have even twenty developers, not to speak about thousands. Also Java is widely used for mobile applications (Android), which are typically small team projects. A lot of them are one person projects.

Yes, I agree that many startups are hiring Java/C++ guys, but the number is small when compared to startups looking for Python/Ruby guys. The main factor behind this is most often the turn around time involved with developing applications in a language like Java or C++ as compared to something like Python or Ruby.

For obvious reason, many of them have Java/C++ people as well for intensive stuff in the backend. That is why I said make sure you know Java/C++ as well to a good extent, because it is an advantage to be able to do something like Python or Ruby really well and have a solid foundation of Java or C++

oldnemesis Wrote:

And both have very limited applicability. Basically everything you can do in Python/Ruby you can do in C++/Java. The opposite is not true. Speaking about commercial software development, this means no GUI apps, no standalone server apps, no math crunching apps (like Photoshop, video encoding/decoding etc), no kernel extensions. Basically you're limiting yourself to small/medium scale Web backends, which is a) not a huge market and b) does not pay a lot.

I am not sure why you say that you cannot do GUI apps, standalone server apps, math crunching apps in Python or Ruby. It is most certainly possible, and it is being done. So not sure where you got that from. Yes, C++ has benefits when it comes extremely intensive processes but well for someone starting out with programming, I doubt if one should go in with the point of view that his eventual job would be writing super intensive high performance parallel computing applications and systems in which case as of now he can safely disregard Python or Ruby or any language of the same kind and focus on becoming a C++ ninja due their limitations currently.

Again, I am not sure how you came to the conclusion that being highly skilled in say Python/Ruby means there is not a huge market and does not pay a lot.

In fact the opposite is true I feel. There are a lot of people with more than decent skills in Java and C++ than in Python or Ruby, simply because these languages have been mainstream languages for a lot longer than say Python or Ruby. Which essentially puts you in a small bracket of people with advanced skills in these newer languages. Not to mention, to really master Java or C++ means a significant amount of time is required just because of the sheer nature of the language, which is not true in the case of something like Python or Ruby.

oldnemesis Wrote:

I do not know what does "competent" mean. Read a book? Designed a personal site? I'd say unless one have designed commercial web sites for at least a year, it carries very little value besides a line in resume (which all Indian programmers will also have).

And HTML5??? How many browsers today support a full set of HTML5 features? I really doubt there will be HTML5-only commercial web sites in next 5 years. Clients still require IE6/NN4 compatibility for a lot of international web sites.

Saying you know HTML is one thing, actually being able to work with HTML is a different one. Yes, I am aware that everyone adds terms and lines in their Resume, just because they have read a book about it. I am not going to speak about that, because well it is pointless. Trust me if they don't actually know something, it will eventually come out.

Reading a book? I am guessing you were sarcastic ...

Yes, I am aware that HTML5 is not fully supported by all the browsers at this point. Google Chrome was released about 2 years ago, yet the adoption rates are not crappy. So adoption will always occur as long as the foundation is good and is backed by performance. Most of the mainstream browsers already support a set of HTML5 features, so chances are in 5 years all of them will be supported inclusive of IE.

And to clarify, I made it clear that these are skills that would be nice to have at a secondary level. I never urged FretDancer to focus on HTML only and become a master at it. The fact is, it is easy to learn and it will not hurt him knowing HTML and its intricacies.

oldnemesis Wrote:

It did not "turn its head", it expanded. You still have MS Office and Libre/OpenOffice as well as Google Docs, it did not get away. Things like Paypal or eBay never been desktop apps. A lot of major web apps are not written in Ruby/Python (google? ebay? paypal?). And most mobile apps have nothing to do with HTML.

I never said Desktop applications have disappeared, their impact has been lessened was my point and is decreasing progressively. If it wasn't the case, I doubt Microsoft would have spent time and effort in creating Live office to be used from the browser. Mobility and flexibility demands have started this trend, and it is as simple as that.

oldnemesis Wrote:

I have no idea how HTML/CSS/JS would be used for mobile applications. I've developed two so far, and did not use any HTML there.

Never said they were required. But it can be done, and is being done. There is no single way of accomplishing something, there are a lot of options out there and one picks what suits them best that is all.

[La Familia]

I'm pretty sure that google is powered by python, and on top of that, they plan to create true multithreaded applications using python.

http://techreport.com/discussions.x/16713

Scripting languages are always a plus and will give you the edge when you're competing with another Java/C++ developer. If you want to learn how to program, then python will probably be the easiest language for you to pick it up. No need to predeclare variables, and if you have a mac, you can run python on your terminal.

I'm also learning how to program, and am on the fence between Perl or Python. Any advice from our circle of developers?

[FretDancer]

I learned HTML when I was a kid because I began experimenting with it, I'm not very good at it when it comes to design, but I can understand most of the code I think. I got really into it and I just got a little bored with it, I left it and never went back to it.

It seems that you guys recommend alot Python + Django for web development (which is what I'm most interested now, once again). So I'm going to give that a try and try to become really good at it.

[oldnemesis]

(03-22-2011 07:16 PM)La Familia Wrote:  

I'm pretty sure that google is powered by python

I know for sure it is not.
Unless by "powered" you mean "they have a few Python scripts doing some text processing".

[oldnemesis]

(03-22-2011 03:55 AM)skulled Wrote:  

Yes, I agree that many startups are hiring Java/C++ guys, but the number is small when compared to startups looking for Python/Ruby guys. The main factor behind this is most often the turn around time involved with developing applications in a language like Java or C++ as compared to something like Python or Ruby.

I'd say it is exactly the opposite, I've seen very few vacancies where Python/Ruby would be primary requirements. It is typically in "desirable" category. And for those where it is primary, the pay is typically not so good.

Quote:

I am not sure why you say that you cannot do GUI apps, standalone server apps, math crunching apps in Python or Ruby. It is most certainly possible, and it is being done.So not sure where you got that from.

It is as possible as using a laptop as hammer. We're talking about mainstream commercial software development here, not about some homebrew hacks or lab projects.

Let's say it this way: I've been in the industry for over 17 years now, and I'm yet to see a commercial video editor, office package, Web server, Mathlab or operating system written in Python.

Quote:

Again, I am not sure how you came to the conclusion that being highly skilled in say Python/Ruby means there is not a huge market and does not pay a lot.

Because the market is more limited. There are simply much less things people use Python/Ruby for in commercial software development. In most cases you're limited to small or medium-size Web development projects and system administration tasks.

Quote:

Saying you know HTML is one thing, actually being able to work with HTML is a different one. Yes, I am aware that everyone adds terms and lines in their Resume, just because they have read a book about it. I am not going to speak about that, because well it is pointless. Trust me if they don't actually know something, it will eventually come out.

To me unless you can pass Brainbench HTML 4.0 test and get at least 4.0 score, you do not know HTML. And most people who claim to know HTML in reality do not know it.

Quote:

Yes, I am aware that HTML5 is not fully supported by all the browsers at this point. Google Chrome was released about 2 years ago, yet the adoption rates are not crappy. So adoption will always occur as long as the foundation is good and is backed by performance. Most of the mainstream browsers already support a set of HTML5 features, so chances are in 5 years all of them will be supported inclusive of IE.

And what is the chance that the implementation will work the same in all those modern browsers?
And what is the chance that the whole world will be using those modern browsers in five years?
No offense, but you sound like a student/relatively fresh programmer, who haven't yet been bitten by the cruel real world, where quite a lot of people still are using Windows 98, and yes, you must support them too, or the government won't purchase your software.

Quote:

And to clarify, I made it clear that these are skills that would be nice to have at a secondary level. I never urged FretDancer to focus on HTML only and become a master at it. The fact is, it is easy to learn and it will not hurt him knowing HTML and its intricacies.

Learning anything won't hurt. Even Fortran or Ada. The question is, whether the efforts would pay?

To summarize:

1. Things which are easy to learn, tend to be learned by more people (because it is easy), and therefore carry little value. Things which are hard to learn, and even harder to master, put you into a much better position both in short and long term.

2. Widely used, multiple purpose languages like C++ or Java put you in a better position in a job market comparing to niche languages like Perl, PHP or Python.

3. Knowing a little of something == knowing nothing.

[drymarro]

"No offense, but you sound like a student/relatively fresh programmer, who haven't yet been bitten by the cruel real world, where quite a lot of people still are using Windows 98, and yes, you must support them too, or the government won't purchase your software."

LOL. who the fuck uses windows 98 bro, most people use XP or 7, the rest Vista. where you pulling this bs out of?

[skulled]

This thread is sort of going in to a debate which has no real answer anyway, it all boils down to personal choice and target, so the bottom line is there is no universal solution that is going to be applicable to all situations.

oldnemesis Wrote:

Unless by "powered" you mean "they have a few Python scripts doing some text processing".

I really don't know where you get these bits of information from. If you really know for a fact that Google only uses Python for a few text processing scripts, then I would like to see or read it myself. You have any links to where you got this statistic or data from?

oldnemesis Wrote:

I'd say it is exactly the opposite, I've seen very few vacancies where Python/Ruby would be primary requirements. It is typically in "desirable" category. And for those where it is primary, the pay is typically not so good.

Maybe we are just looking at different job sources, because it most definitely is not how you say it in most of the places I look at normally. Again I never said that one should not know Java/C++ or it is not going to help with employment in the short or long term.

oldnemesis Wrote:

Let's say it this way: I've been in the industry for over 17 years now, and I'm yet to see a commercial video editor, office package, Web server, Mathlab or operating system written in Python.

Once again I never refuted that fact. I am aware of the applications out there and what they are built with. But in those past 17 years you mention, only in the last 6 - 7 years have Python or Ruby gotten traction and gained momentum. It is still early days for them, but there are already a number of areas where their application and usage has increased significantly.

Python is used to a great extent by Facebook, and a number of other big companies including Google (not just for text processing). Facebook is built mainly in PHP in terms of user visible parts of the application. And yes, before you decide to crucify me by stating that almost all of their intensive background stuff is written in C++, I am aware of that.

There are a number of other companies and applications which are built with a lot of Python as well. A search on Google should point that out to a good extent.

oldnemesis Wrote:

And what is the chance that the implementation will work the same in all those modern browsers?
And what is the chance that the whole world will be using those modern browsers in five years?

What browser and OS do you use? I clearly pointed out that adoption and usage takes time, so repeating the same fact about some people still using an outdated browser or OS does not make the point stronger.

By the way, nothing works the same in every situation, not even Java or C++. A simple thing like the GUI changes depending on the OS you are using, as most languages support the native of the OS. So expecting browsers to work exactly the same way is just wishful thinking.

oldnemesis Wrote:

No offense, but you sound like a student/relatively fresh programmer, who haven't yet been bitten by the cruel real world, where quite a lot of people still are using Windows 98, and yes, you must support them too, or the government won't purchase your software.

I am more than aware of what people use in terms of operating systems and browsers etc, so thank you for pointing it out once again.

And as for your most enlightening observation regarding my skill or exposure to the cruel real world, I am going to have to say you got that wrong. I have worked in 3 different continents doing development, and have prior experience programming for academics with applications in Astrophysics and Scientific Computing. So I have been around long enough to know some things, maybe not 17 years like you but enough to know what I am talking about.

Anyway as I pointed out at the start of the post, I have no intentions of arguing with you about which is better and why. I was just replying to the OP with my suggestions, and you are more than welcome to give him your view point.

La Familia Wrote:

I'm also learning how to program, and am on the fence between Perl or Python. Any advice from our circle of developers?

Between Perl and Python, my suggestion would be to go with Python. For one, it is easier to learn and you can always pick up Perl if you absolutely need it later.

[familydude]

My two-cent for the long haul, I know many will disagree :

- Finish your education
- Spend two years building industry contacts :
-- Do contract or short-term projects in big firms
-- Be noticed, speak up, make a difference in the projects, become the "go to" guy, kick ass
-- Make friends with managers and learn from more talented programmers
- Get the fuck out. Now you know people in the industry and you know how to finish projects. This sets you apart from 90% of the Indians and Eastern-Euros and will help you get projects or work without having to go through standard means.

Not exactly what you want to hear I guess. You want money "now". Forget about specific technologies, they come and go, some Ukrainian fuck in karkhov will always be able to learn emerging techs faster and better than you and get contracts for 60% of the price.

[FretDancer]

(03-23-2011 09:39 AM)familydude Wrote:  

My two-cent for the long haul, I know many will disagree :

- Finish your education
- Spend two years building industry contacts :
-- Do contract or short-term projects in big firms in the Bay-Area or Seattle
-- Be noticed, speak up, make a difference in the projects, become the "go to" guy, kick ass
-- Make friends with managers and learn from more talented programmers
- Get the fuck out. Now you know people in the industry and you know how to finish projects. This sets you apart from 90% of the Indians and Eastern-Euros and will help you get projects or work without having to go through standard means.

Not exactly what you want to hear I guess. You want money "now". Forget about specific technologies, they come and go, some Ukrainian fuck in karkhov will always be able to learn emerging techs faster and better than you and get contracts for 60% of the price.

Good post, definitely not what I wanted to hear but very down to earth and I like it. You could say that becoming the "go to" guy is what I'm really looking for, but that will take some time.

I guess I could find a job non programming related while I finish my education at the same time?

[oldnemesis]

(03-22-2011 10:19 PM)drymarro Wrote:  

LOL. who the fuck uses windows 98 bro, most people use XP or 7, the rest Vista. where you pulling this bs out of?

How many years of experience you have developing commercial software for international customers?
You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

[oldnemesis]

(03-23-2011 03:00 AM)skulled Wrote:  

I really don't know where you get these bits of information from. If you really know for a fact that Google only uses Python for a few text processing scripts, then I would like to see or read it myself. You have any links to where you got this statistic or data from?

No, I don't have links. I said "I know", not "I read it somewhere". And I won't get into any details here - if you have any experience within our industry, you won't ask. And if you don't, then your opinion carries little value anyway.

Quote:

Maybe we are just looking at different job sources, because it most definitely is not how you say it in most of the places I look at normally. Again I never said that one should not know Java/C++ or it is not going to help with employment in the short or long term.

I check Craigslist and LinkedIn - this is where all my full-time and part-time jobs came in. I'm also in contact with a lot of local recruiters, and have a pretty good view of job market here in Bay Area.

Quote:

Once again I never refuted that fact. I am aware of the applications out there and what they are built with. But in those past 17 years you mention, only in the last 6 - 7 years have Python or Ruby gotten traction and gained momentum.

That's quite lame argument, sorry. Fortran and Assembler have been there for much longer than C++/Java, and still nobody uses them to write GUI apps or Web backends.

Quote:

It is still early days for them, but there are already a number of areas where their application and usage has increased significantly.

Could you identify any such areas?

Quote:

Python is used to a great extent by Facebook, and a number of other big companies including Google (not just for text processing). Facebook is built mainly in PHP in terms of user visible parts of the application.

Do you know about FB, or you're guessing? I'll check, a few of my friends work at FB.

Quote:

What browser and OS do you use? I clearly pointed out that adoption and usage takes time, so repeating the same fact about some people still using an outdated browser or OS does not make the point stronger.

It doesn't matter what I or you use. It matters what the customer WANTS to be supported.

Quote:

By the way, nothing works the same in every situation, not even Java or C++. A simple thing like the GUI changes depending on the OS you are using, as most languages support the native of the OS. So expecting browsers to work exactly the same way is just wishful thinking.

If this was the case, cross-platform programming would be impossible. Fortunately this is not the case.

Quote:

And as for your most enlightening observation regarding my skill or exposure to the cruel real world, I am going to have to say you got that wrong. I have worked in 3 different continents doing development, and have prior experience programming for academics with applications in Astrophysics and Scientific Computing.

I worked with those guys too, and this is very different market. Very similar to ISPs. A lot of problems you face with consumer applications just do not exist in science/academic world, where it is typical to request - and receive - a special hardware/software configuration to run your program. You'll never get a bug report from them like "I just bought a new USB webcam, connected it to my computer and now your @#@# program crashes every time!" from academic world.

Quote:

Between Perl and Python, my suggestion would be to go with Python. For one, it is easier to learn and you can always pick up Perl if you absolutely need it later.

A choice between Perl and Python is pretty much a religious one, and this is what your suggestion is based on. As for me, I wouldn't suggest starting learning programming with either of them. Now I'd start with something like Java or C#.

[drymarro]

(03-23-2011 05:24 PM)oldnemesis Wrote:  

(03-22-2011 10:19 PM)drymarro Wrote:  

LOL. who the fuck uses windows 98 bro, most people use XP or 7, the rest Vista. where you pulling this bs out of?

How many years of experience you have developing commercial software for international customers?
You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

Oh I actually do know what I'm talking about. You're just a troll.

[oldnemesis]

(03-27-2011 05:42 AM)drymarro Wrote:  

Oh I actually do know what I'm talking about.

No, you do not. Too bad you ignored my question about your experience. I asked it because I have interviewed probably hundreds of people for various programmer positions, and from your answers it looks like you have very limited, if any, experience in commercial software development.

[takeda]

my advice would be

- dont become obsessed with specific technologies like java or whatever. its about building applications. make sure you learn the core fundamentals of computer science in university. languages and technologies come and go but the principles are the same since Fred Brooks wrote the Mythical Man Month in the 1970s

- at the start, find a good company to work at (not easy, i know) and stay there for a number of years. i know you might not want to hear that, but assuming you are getting good experience, you need to hang around long enough to learn to be an engineer: build things, realise how fucked up they are, and learn from your mistakes. its about "not sucking quite as much as you did last year".

- find mentors in your organization and "game" them so they will take you under their wing and teach you. this is what its all about. make sure you learn from the experienced engineers in the office. expect them to be rude and grumpy :-) make it clear that you are putting in the effort and trying to learn, defer to their judgement. that will make you stand out from 99% of the other poindexters who think they know everything because the built an iPhone app for their final year assignment.

[Kurupt]

Looks like someone discovered what it means to get into a forum conversation with oldnemesis. Prepare to get every single one of your sentences quoted and refuted one by one. I don't have any issues against a relentless pursuit of the actual truth, but the patronizing tone is hilarious and is why I keep coming back to read his replies.

I would suggest to first identify the companies that you wish to work for, and in which city they are located in. Start browsing their postings (either on company site) or similar postings on LinkedIn and check out what kind of languages they need - that is, for positions you're interested in. Specialize, specialize, specialize. It would also help to get a good LinkedIn profile that links to your personal website, where you showcase projects and open source stuff that you may contribute to. Make yourself visible, and good luck man!

Edit: the above assumes you love programming. For money, I would agree with a poster somewhere above, work on building connections and industry rolodex as fast as possible. You want to give yourself a future past code monkey - perhaps in product/project management.

[Caligula]

(03-20-2011 12:04 AM)FretDancer Wrote:  

So, it would be nice to get to know the programmers around this community, share knowledge, tips, just about anything to help each other, I'd really appreciate it.

Do you read Hacker News (http://news.ycombinator.com)? Great source of advice for programmers starting out, contracting, starting your own projects, etc.

[manilaguy]

I started with computers as a youngin, when programming was more for nerds. I'd be the guy that had the bot on IRC site (dalnet!). I had a server (fixed IP) at 16. I'd be the guy who would ping bomb you in counter strike. I wasn't a script kiddie, I modified published exploits for the community. By 20 I had taught myself to be proficient in 4 languages, and I was active in the linux community.

Strangely for someone with technical prowess, I switched my majored in college to Statistics/Economics after taking just one class of it. Now my field is finance. And I do a bit of mathematical programming.

Looking back, I didn't go into the computer science field although I was pretty leet at it. I am happier on the business side of things. I remember the day when Baidu (chinese google) IPO'd, I was in a interning for investment company in San Francisco and realized how much more fun it is to deal with uncertainties.

If one were to ask me if they should go to the IT field, I would say yes only if
1.) you love programming and program for fun
2.) realize that anything in IT can be outsourced depending on scalability

CS is such a fun intellectual challenge. Number two is obvious. I find the economic factors that is eating this industry fascinating.

I recommend Actuarial work for someone who likes to combine CS + Finance.

[oldnemesis]

(04-11-2011 08:48 PM)manilaguy Wrote:  

I'd be the guy who would ping bomb you in counter strike.

LOL. I RE'd the HL client library and injected the code which would auto-aim for me - and this was long time before this stuff went public and every script kiddie around was using it.

[Caligula]

(04-11-2011 08:48 PM)manilaguy Wrote:  

I recommend Actuarial work for someone who likes to combine CS + Finance.

Or hedge funds / high frequency trading. I've met programmers in New York who have set up their own trading shops and are doing very well.

Very hard to do, probably stressful but the challenges involved and the rush of doing it right seem unbeatable.