[poledaddy]

I have a really weird neck injury that's been plaguing me for 2 months. It's driving me crazy because it seems to occur anytime I do any physical activity at all. I wanted to see if any guys have personal or indirect experience with overcoming something like this.

I've done BJJ for a few years and every now and then I ended up with a slightly stiff neck after an intense practice/roll session, where one side has slightly reduced flexibility/mobility vs the other side. I would take a few days off, and go to a yoga session or two, and then I'd be back to 100% / equal flexibility on both sides.

This past april, right as I was getting ready for a set of tournaments (and a month away from blue belt), I went to a practice where I didn't even roll live, but I was doing side control/submission drill that got a bit neck crankish. Didn't feel anything at practice, but the next morning I woke up not being able to move my neck to the left at all, and fairly intense aching pain from the upper trap up to the back of my head on the left side. Not on the spine at all - seemed really focused in the muscle, and very localized (didn't seem connected to other parts of my body like a nerve/spinal injury).

I went cold turkey on all physical activity, iced it. After a few days it felt better where the pain mostly subsided, but still greatly reduced flexibility. I started going to yoga. Went to 3 yoga sessions, seemed to be coming along. Then the 4th yoga session or so, I don't know what the hell happened but the OPPOSITE (right) side got totally fucked up in the same way. I don't remember doing any positions/moves out of the ordinary either. Out of nowhere, just intense, throbbing pain on the right side of my neck.

I immediately left and went home and got back to icing it, etc. But that scared the shit out of me because I've been using yoga for years as a recovery tool and it had always been highly effective. So to get injured from yoga, was just something I wasn't expecting at all....

After that, I've been going to a physical therapist recommended by my BJJ instructor, past 8 weeks or so. I go for 3 or 4 weeks without doing any activity just focusing on the PT, and foam rolling every day. I make progress, pain goes away, and my neck flexibility gets restored nearly 100%.

The PTs tell me I should start trying going to the gym to do lifts that are not weight bearing on my neck or engaging that muscle - leg press, lat pulldowns, etc and doing slow, controlled lifts, not going 100%, etc. I do a few workouts - it feels great to finally get some exercise in as I was starting to go nuts, muscles atrophying, etc. I'm smart about it -taking time for recovery, slow controlled motion, etc. Then 5th or 6th workout BOOM, pain starts up again, this time back on LEFT side. Not quite as intense as prior times but definitely aches during the day. I wasn't doing anything that put weight on my neck just leg press, lat pulldowns, leg extensions, seated calf raise, etc.

Now I'm completely at wits end - basically any kind of physical activity, even slow/controlled lifts that don't use my neck, or even fucking yoga, and I get injured?

I'm 31 and certainly didn't see myself doing BJJ forever, though I see plenty of older guys in my gym that are killing it, and I was a month away from blue belt, but right now returning to BJJ isn't even my concern anymore I just want to be able to get back to the point where I can at least lift some weights again so my muscles don't atrophy. Because right now it seems like I basically can't do any physical activity.

It will break my heart to retire from BJJ a inch away from a hard-earned blue belt, and I will get over that eventually, but it's going to break my fucking soul to turn into skinny-fat because I can't even lift.

The PTs are nice enough and happy to take my money, but it seems like there is something going on that is beyond their pay grade. Does anybody have experience with other types of docs/medical professions that might be able to help?

TL;DR I've had a neck injury for 2+ months that happens when I do any kind of physical activity at all. It heals up but when I start going back to doing lifts like leg press or lat pulldown that shouldn't engage the the neck, I get re-injured. It happens on one side or the other where I have reduced mobility and throbbing/aching pain that is present when I'm not doing anything. Been going to Physical Therapists but they don't seem to know what's going on, looking for alternative medical professions/advice because I'm at wits end. Any ideas appreciated.

[iknowexactly]

Why alternative when you haven't exhausted the most obvious tech to check what's wrong.

X-rays or some kind of scan can check for fouled up disks.

Maxing out on lifts I think can cause damaged disks that don't really heal very easily.

[berserk]

(06-12-2014 12:59 PM)poledaddy Wrote:  

fairly intense aching pain from the upper trap up to the back of my head on the left side.

I have EXACTLY the same pain, to the point. Stiff neck turning to the side, the pain from back in the shoulderblade going through the neck into the side/back of the head right?

I am fairly convinced it is a spine issue, but haven't had MRI, called Cervicogenic Headache due to a trapped nerve in the upper spine.

Is this a good illustration?





More: http://www.jaoa.org/content/105/4_suppl/16S.full

[poledaddy]

(06-12-2014 01:32 PM)iknowexactly Wrote:  

Why alternative when you haven't exhausted the most obvious tech to check what's wrong.

X-rays or some kind of scan can check for fouled up disks.

Maxing out on lifts I think can cause damaged disks that don't really heal very easily.

Thanks, yeah that's a next step for me. I asked the PTs about getting an x-ray when I first started but they downplayed it, saying that it wasn't a disc issue, but obviously their record on this isn't the greatest to date so I'll get that taken care of.

When I said "alternative" I wasn't necessarily implying "alternative medicine" but just other options besides PT.

[poledaddy]

[/quote]

I have EXACTLY the same pain, to the point. Stiff neck turning to the side, the pain from back in the shoulderblade going through the neck into the side/back of the head right?

I am fairly convinced it is a spine issue, but haven't had MRI, called Cervicogenic Headache due to a trapped nerve in the upper spine.

Is this a good illustration?

[/quote]

It's definitely not up around my ear like that illustration. It is in the shoulder blade on one side and then comes up the side of my neck, and back of my head where the neck tendon (if that's what it is) is attached to my head. But is very specific/local to the tendon itself - not going into the actual head/skull at all. And definitely not above the eyes.

[berserk]

I have EXACTLY the same pain, to the point. Stiff neck turning to the side, the pain from back in the shoulderblade going through the neck into the side/back of the head right?

I am fairly convinced it is a spine issue, but haven't had MRI, called Cervicogenic Headache due to a trapped nerve in the upper spine.

Is this a good illustration?

[/quote]

It's definitely not up around my ear like that illustration. It is in the shoulder blade on one side and then comes up the side of my neck, and back of my head where the neck tendon (if that's what it is) is attached to my head. But is very specific/local to the tendon itself - not going into the actual head/skull at all. And definitely not above the eyes.
[/quote]

Still, this sounds very similar to my symptoms, I have that exact same muscle strain going into the back, up to the neck and into the back of the head. I really wouldn't rule it out. It's the upper spine more than likely. Difficult to diagnose. I'd get an MRI and talk to a specialist.

[poledaddy]

[/quote]

Still, this sounds very similar to my symptoms, I have that exact same muscle strain going into the back, up to the neck and into the back of the head. I really wouldn't rule it out. It's the upper spine more than likely. Difficult to diagnose. I'd get an MRI and talk to a specialist.
[/quote]

Good point. I'll look into the MRI in addition to getting the x-ray. What have you heard on recovery for your injury since you got diagnosed?

[rainy]

Usually an alignment issue. Pain in the neck regularly comes from an issue elsewhere. Just like back pain is often the result of an issue in the hips or legs.

I would get adjusted and see if that works before paying for x-rays. X-rays usually lead to medication and sometimes suggested surgery, basically treating the symptom instead of the root cause. I went through this myself a little while ago and my doctor wanted me to have spinal surgery for 25K. Issue was my pelvis rotates forward too much and a few physical therapy sessions/adjustments completely fixed the problem. That physical therapist has a number of clients who've spent tens of thousands over the years on medication and surgery which didn't work, and a month of sessions with him solved the issues.

One of the most neglected health issues in this country are unbalanced hips and pelvic regions which throw off alignment and balance throughout the body, often causing pain elsewhere. Most doctors however don't look for that. Use google. Should be able to find a physical therapist or chiropractor who specializes in pelvic issues and by extent, balance and alignment issues.

If that doesn't work, then you might have an actual neck injury but in my experience the vast majority of issues with back and neck pain come from issues with other parts of the body.

Western doctors largely are terrible and finding root causes of problems. For serious surgeries, they're very good, heart issues, brain issues, transplants, things like that, but many other problems they just want to throw pain meds at the problem or recommend surgery.

[berserk]

(06-12-2014 03:57 PM)rainy Wrote:  

One of the most neglected health issues in this country are unbalanced hips and pelvic regions which throw off alignment and balance throughout the body, often causing pain elsewhere.

Very good point. I have had different kinds of aches from my right leg, to right lower back to right neck and I've always felt that there was some misalignment in length of legs or pelvic tilted somewhat.

[monster]

Do you drive crazy and accelerate fast.

That gives "mini-whiplash" that exacerbate any tension your neck gets from doing sports...and chances are you drive much more than you do sports like most people so these mini-whiplashes are pretty dangerous. When I drive I rest my head on the headrest.

[EagleMan]

Try getting a foam roller and rolling your neck and back on it. Also start laying on the floor when you're at home watching tv and see if that helps. If all that doesn't work, maybe try orthokine. I heard it's expensive and you can only get it done in Germany or something, but it helped Joe Rogan with some neck issues he got from bjj.

[poledaddy]

(06-14-2014 07:59 AM)EagleMan Wrote:  

Try getting a foam roller and rolling your neck and back on it. Also start laying on the floor when you're at home watching tv and see if that helps. If all that doesn't work, maybe try orthokine. I heard it's expensive and you can only get it done in Germany or something, but it helped Joe Rogan with some neck issues he got from bjj.

Yeah I've been foam rolling daily and will continue to do so. I heard Joe talk about orthokine.

Thanks to everyone for the tips so far, I was sort of at drowning in frustration from the repeated reinjury, but now I have some leads to follow.

[rekruler]

(06-12-2014 12:59 PM)poledaddy Wrote:  

Been going to Physical Therapists but they don't seem to know what's going on, looking for alternative medical professions/advice because I'm at wits end. Any ideas appreciated.

Get an appointment with an orthopedic spinal surgeon. Despite the surgeon designation, orthopedic surgeons are the go to guys for any bone/joint related issues. As a first step they'll have you get an xray and conduct a thorough physical examination testing your range of motion, etc. Best case scenario, they'll tell you they can't see anything on the imaging and there are no definitive "smoking guns" with your range of motion tests. In that case you can basically chock it down to some kind of muscle imbalance, as other posters have suggested.

Or, they'll find there is some kind of defect with your discs or other soft tissue. That would be bad news, but at least you'll save yourself the time and frustration of dealing with physical therapy to solve a structural problem, which it won't.

[YoungBlood]

Have you looked into trigger point therapy?

You need to try this before you get surgery of any sort. A few years back, I got a massive pain on my left shoulder from lifting; It came from bench pressing. It was like a dull, sharp like pain that radiated from the front of my shoulder. I went to an orthopedic doctor and he recommended a cortisone shot. I accepted.

Big mistake.

It was completely unnecessary because afterwards, after spending many hours researching for what it could be (my x ray and MRI didn't show any abnormalities), it was simple knots I had located in my infrapspinatus. I bought a tennis ball and massaged these knots away and my shoulder pain went away. I was blown away by the results and wondered why doctors don't recommend this type of treatment to anybody. My guess is that they either don't know or they want to keep big pharm happy and have all these people buy drugs that mask pain, as oppose to actually treat it.

Anyway, it does sound like you do have trigger points located on your neck, specifically on your Multifidi . It could be another muscle that needs work also so I'll lead you up to finding out what it is.

Here's the website I use for TriggerPoints

For your pain, look at the Head & Upper Body Pain section.

There are many ways to treat these points when you find them. One method is holding a ball or a back massager in place for 10 breaths and let the trigger point dissipate slowly.

Another way is to massage the point slowly going up or down in the direction of one inch. If you choose this method, you must stick with one movement, i.e. don't go up and down. Either smooth the muscle down and start over or smooth the muscle up and start over.

A good rule of thumb is to massage a muscle towards the heart. So if you have pain on your hamstring, for example, you massage up.

Goodluck with all of this. I know how debilitating injuries are when you lead an active lifestyle.

[SDGuerro]

See if you can find an osteopath. I had lower back problems that recurred each workout after months of "rehab", chiropractor, and regular md doctor visits. The osteopath took one look at me, measured my legs, and told me "yep just what I thought your leg is shorter than the other and it is affecting x y and z. He gave me a heal lift and it went away almost immediately and hasn't come back in years. I'm not saying its the same but this guy fixed me in minutes and I literally saw other doctors and chiropractors for years who couldn't figure my problem out. The pain and recurring injury caused me to quit boxing and backpacking. Osteopaths apparently are medical doctors who also believe in/don't discredit eastern medicine. Look for a good one in your area and go from there. The other thing that helped me was swimming. It supports your weight and is low impact but allows you to get a workout in. Also make sure you have a good pillow. Good luck bro!

[BodiPUA]

Hi,

My 2 cents is: I would avoid osteopaths and chiropractors like the plague. Stop guessing and just go pay a few hundred dollars and get an MRI with a follow-up consultation with an orthopaedic surgeon. There is literally no other diagnostic option which can compete against this, it's the Rolls-Royce plan. The MRI is a 3D model of your neck and an orthopaedic surgeon spends his life fixing fucked up bones, discs and ligaments.

Good luck.
Bodi

[Cr33pin]

Man my neck is hurting something fierce.. I couldn't sleep last night. It started hurting 2 days ago, I thought from maybe the nap I took on the couch but I am not sure. I went to the gym and worked out pretty hard the last two days anyway. An now its very very painful. Its like it goes up the back of my neck on both sides.

I started getting headaches recently to. I started getting them around the same time I started using my new Protein and Amino acids which both contain Sucralose. The protein I had been using in the past did was 100% all natural and didn't have any of these artificial sweeteners. After doing some google research it seems some people have ill side effects to Sucralose such as headaches and joint pain, back pain, neck pain etc..... I'm curious to know if this could be the cause of problems.

[poledaddy]

Necks are weird man. I believe that about sucralose / sweeteners- I use ProMix grass fed unsweeted whey, it costs a good bit more but damn if I don't feel a difference. How is your hydration? I try to keep a gallon-size pitcher of water around during the day, otherwise I just forget.

My injury that I started this thread for has completely subsided and I'm back hitting weights and BJJ on the regular. I have made some permanent modifications in the eyes of reducing long term risk:

- Always getting to BJJ early and stretching out with yoga poses, and foam roller, and some neck bridging to warm things up
- Never rolling live on two consecutive days. My theory is I need to give the spine/soft tissues time to recalibrate, even if I'm feeling good.
- For lifting, rarely doing normal squats, no more deadlift. Mainly using trap bar deadlift, leg press, hack squat machine. Squats feel awesome but I want to be in this for the long haul. I tried some front squats, I can see how that would help but I just haven't figured it out quite yet.
- Doing HIT, rest pause style lifting. Kill ego/momentum. Not worth it. Saves a lot of time too.

So far seems to be working pretty good. TRT probably helping too

[Hannibal]

When you're at rest, does your posture look like any of these?



I'm not a doctor, but if you don't have any faith in them I would take a couple pictures from the side and start from there.

I get neck pain if my shoulders are really tight in the front (from benching usually), which pulls everything from my upper back forward.

It could also be tightness in the traps at the insertion point, which is pulling your neck down.

If I get pain when I lean up against a wall and try to press the back of my head towards it (forces good neck posture), then I know it's time to stretch and do what this video says.

It probably won't fix your problem, but it's free so you might as well give it a shot.

[Hades]

Lots of good suggestions here.
If you work a desk job, try to get your hands on a standing desk. Most people hunch over a desk and can further exacerbate neck problems. You have to take time to examine any and all facets of your life that could contribute to the injury, not just BJJ and lifting.

[Cr33pin]

Some sound replies. I'm glad you got everything taken care of poledaddy (it sounds funny for me to say that)

My posture is good when I am up moving around. However I been spending a lot of time on the lap top and I'm sure my posture sucks when I am using it. Plus the only TV in my new place is a wall mounted TV i front of the bed so anytime I'm watching a movie and what not I'm laying down with my neck and shoulders pushed up with pillows behind them and not sitting straight up watching the TV. I am assuming this is what has led me to my sore neck. I have gotten some headaches since I started taking the new protein as well which led me to wonder if the Sucralose is playing some kind of hand in i as well. Prally just the perfect storm of shit that has lead me to my neck feeling like this. It sucks but I am hoping it will be better REAL soon.

I feel like my neck was a little sore before I went to the gym 2 days ago and I did shrugs with weights way heavier then I ever have before (New gym has fancy shit my old home gym did not)
I didn't really feel any pain or anything while I was doing them or later that night it never got to bad. Then yesterday a little stiff in the neck but nothing major. I did a intense back and bicept work out that included some pretty heavy rack pulls (again something I have never done before) I did't feel anything at the gym. I did feel a little tight in the neck as I had for a few days so after the gm I took a hot shower that relaxed my neck and I felt ok..... but later last night that shit was tight and hurting and when I tried to go to sleep it was not happening. It feels a little better today as far s I can get it kind of comfortable when I lay or sit which I couldn't do last night at all, I even tried taking another super hot shower at 2am to see if it would help long enough for me to sleep. It didn't.

I went to the pharmacy today to get some ibuprofen but I don't even think they have that stuff here in Peru. My lack of Spanish may be hindering me but the lady there spoke some English and instead gave me what I believe to be a muscle relaxer(MioDel relax 500mg Paracetamol) . I bought 4 of them. I also bought some uncooked rice and I'm gonna put it in a tube sock and make a ghetto heat pad for my neck. I will prally just try taking the pills around bed time so hopefully I can sleep.

Also NOT going to the gym today ha