ONS game vs Relationship game
Here is a post I made in another thread which addresses this issue:
"I will try to explain using a quote from Roosh. This is from the following post: http://www.rooshv.com/men-are-nothing-mo...dern-woman
"One of the questions I used to ask was “Do you need a man?” Out of the dozens of times I asked it, not a single girl answered yes. [...] I started asking a different question to women: “Do you want a man?” I began receiving “I don’t know” answers. [...] Only in a few instances did a woman outright say yes, and these usually happened in Ukraine. It’s no surprise that I eased into mini-relationships with these yes girls without the standard flaking or game-playing you would normally receive from girls who see men as milk instead of water. The girls who said yes weren’t exactly hurting for food or shelter, and they didn’t try to reach into my pockets for resources, but through their attitude and demeanor it was clear that they did want a man in their life who could provide it with a measure of happiness that could not be gained from their environment or government. [...] From a young age, girls are brainwashed to believe that they don’t need men and that the key to their happiness is self-empowerment by sleeping around and becoming a corporate wage slave. [...] This is why even lesser alpha males fail to enter relationships with women beyond a few bangs."
"Do you want a man?" is a good question. I can attest to the fact that the predominant answer to this question in the West is a resounding no. I used to think women were not serious when they said this, and did not understand that this widespread mentality would have real-world implications. It is an example of an R-selected society. We see R/K selection as male strategies, but we rarely see them as female strategies, which are even more important. In this sense, a man looking for love in America may be disillusioned, as will a man looking for casual [free] sex in Belarus. Here are some of the reasons that have been mentioned up for this (remember this applies only to young girls who are under 28-30):
1. There is a cultural shift where men (at least alpha men) stop wanting relationships. Women get pumped and dumped, they get hurt, and protect themselves emotionally by rejecting the idea of love and of a relationship altogether. You hear Russian girls speak of love as if it were the most important thing in the world, an American girl would laugh at you for believing such a thing even exists. Female sexualization is a form of ego-protection. If you realize you cannot secure the commitment of the other sex, you may go "fuck it" and use them all for sex, pumping and dumping your way through hordes of women, perhaps even unknowingly discarding some who would have commited.
2. Women do not take experience well. A breakup from her teen years can destroy her to the point where she renounces the idea of emotional connection altogether. If you mix this with feminist ideology, which encourages women to be free of men and enjoy their sexuality, they degenerate into their purely sexual state, operating pretty much like men.
3. Heavy workload from college or career (often both at once), which serves as another hamsterization not to get into a relationship and enjoy casual sex.
4. Delaying of marriage until age 28-30. A 22 year old girl may meet the perfect man, and yet still not marry because her time, established by society, has yet not come. You'd be suprised how many Western women equate commitment with family and marriage (more so the more Western the culture).
5. Logical reasons: The boyfriend is the public man, the man who is introduced to family, friends... He must meet a certain profile, which is usually the responsible beta profile. There in an incongruence here in that she isn't attracted to this profile, serving as yet another reason not to get into a relationship.
This encompasses the R-selected female MINDSET. A girl with this mindset hasn't necessarily slept with a lot of men, but under the right circumstances she would (lives alone, frequents clubs, access to online dating). These circumstances are being met at higher levels than ever before across many of the blue countries, meaning the percentages of girls who act on their mindset is rising, and is higher the more Western the country. Therefore, there are three types of young girls you will meet from cold approach:
1. Long-term single: She still has sex with men, some of whom want to be her boyfriend, but she doesn't want a boyfriend. In Anglo countries this is probably 50+% of women. The percentage is higher the more Westernized the culture.
2. Girls with boyfriends: If the girl is pressured by her family, and sometimes if she is lonely, she will make the logical decision to get into a relationship with a man who fits the right profile as mentioned above (usually beta, long-term-boyfriends are very rarely alpha males). Since it is a logical decision, almost never an emotional one, there is no attraction, which is why it is usually so easy to get these girls to cheat, barring cultural inhibitions (which are less and less the more Western the culture).
3. Girls looking for a boyfriend whose desired profile you don't fit: These will be the grand minority of girls. As an R-selected player and a foreigner, you will rarely fit the profile. Also, the cold approach itself puts you at a disadvantage here, as usually Western girls will form these relationships through social circle. A player will always do more damage to a girl's reputation, especially if he is foreign and cold-approached, than a beta male who already knows everybody. The cold-approach makes you her indiscretion, she classifies you from the beginning as the lover, the indiscretion, and essentially most girls in these cultures will not frame you as a boyfriend.
For this reason, an R-selected strategy is the only one that works. You cannot frame yourself as the boyfriend unless you meet her through social circle and are extremely lucky. K-selection simply doesn't work, which is why we don't use it. With R-selection you get girls with boyfriends, you get the long-term singles who don't want boyfriends, and you get the girls who are looking but classify you as a lover. If you frame yourself as a boyfriend you lose the girl before even getting the bang.
And yet, the problem with R-selection is that affairs end as fast as they begin. The reason for this is not that you took her to bed fast, or buyer's remorse, it is the mentality of the girl you are dealing with. If the girl doesn't want a boyfriend, she will stay with you (assuming you didn't label anything) as long as her FEELS tell her to. The moment the movie gets a bit bland (and nobody can keep it going forever) she will bail. For this reason Roosh speaks of lesser alphas being unable to secure the commitment of young Western girls. Even in Romania, which I gamed in personally and can attest to, she didn't keep most girls past a few bangs, and lost many after just one. Surely some were his choice, but some were not.
Therefore the only way to get into a relationship with a young Western girl is by either meeting her through her social circle and getting lucky, or making her fall in love with. The second is a feasable strategy, but you must have very tight game (remember you will be dealing with high-count women) and it will happen less that 20-30% of the time. It can be done, but with a ridiculously low ROI. I remember one time, in Poland of all places, a girl told me on the first date she didn't want a relationship (I lost 5 girls until I finally figured out it was an R-selected society, not K as I thought at first). We got into an open relationship, and after about 2 months she fell in love with me and demanded commitment.
With regards to the map, there is of course some guesswork, but from personal experience I can guarantee these places: Poland, Romania, Hungary, Czech Republic, Russia, Ukraine, Brazil, Spain (and by extension Argentina). I assume everyone agrees on Western Europe and the Anglosphere. A good rule of thumb is that the more Westernized the culture (look at how women dress on the streets, what their general beliefs are...), the more R-selected it will be. Needless to say not every country is the same, ASD also plays a role. In Hungary, for example, you will have to overcome resistance to get the bang, but the mindset is in your favour and she has probably had one-night-stands before. In America, an extreme version of R-selection, ASD is minimal and you can often bang with virtually no LMR (though this is often the case in Eastern Europe and South America aswell).
My solution to this is what many men, I believe, have done without realizing. I focus solely on the sexual aspect of relationships with R-selected girls. If I want to feel affection or tenderness in a relationship with a girl, if I am at a point in my life where I want that, I find a way of travelling to the red countries (in my case, Russia) to get it."
"I will try to explain using a quote from Roosh. This is from the following post: http://www.rooshv.com/men-are-nothing-mo...dern-woman
"One of the questions I used to ask was “Do you need a man?” Out of the dozens of times I asked it, not a single girl answered yes. [...] I started asking a different question to women: “Do you want a man?” I began receiving “I don’t know” answers. [...] Only in a few instances did a woman outright say yes, and these usually happened in Ukraine. It’s no surprise that I eased into mini-relationships with these yes girls without the standard flaking or game-playing you would normally receive from girls who see men as milk instead of water. The girls who said yes weren’t exactly hurting for food or shelter, and they didn’t try to reach into my pockets for resources, but through their attitude and demeanor it was clear that they did want a man in their life who could provide it with a measure of happiness that could not be gained from their environment or government. [...] From a young age, girls are brainwashed to believe that they don’t need men and that the key to their happiness is self-empowerment by sleeping around and becoming a corporate wage slave. [...] This is why even lesser alpha males fail to enter relationships with women beyond a few bangs."
"Do you want a man?" is a good question. I can attest to the fact that the predominant answer to this question in the West is a resounding no. I used to think women were not serious when they said this, and did not understand that this widespread mentality would have real-world implications. It is an example of an R-selected society. We see R/K selection as male strategies, but we rarely see them as female strategies, which are even more important. In this sense, a man looking for love in America may be disillusioned, as will a man looking for casual [free] sex in Belarus. Here are some of the reasons that have been mentioned up for this (remember this applies only to young girls who are under 28-30):
1. There is a cultural shift where men (at least alpha men) stop wanting relationships. Women get pumped and dumped, they get hurt, and protect themselves emotionally by rejecting the idea of love and of a relationship altogether. You hear Russian girls speak of love as if it were the most important thing in the world, an American girl would laugh at you for believing such a thing even exists. Female sexualization is a form of ego-protection. If you realize you cannot secure the commitment of the other sex, you may go "fuck it" and use them all for sex, pumping and dumping your way through hordes of women, perhaps even unknowingly discarding some who would have commited.
2. Women do not take experience well. A breakup from her teen years can destroy her to the point where she renounces the idea of emotional connection altogether. If you mix this with feminist ideology, which encourages women to be free of men and enjoy their sexuality, they degenerate into their purely sexual state, operating pretty much like men.
3. Heavy workload from college or career (often both at once), which serves as another hamsterization not to get into a relationship and enjoy casual sex.
4. Delaying of marriage until age 28-30. A 22 year old girl may meet the perfect man, and yet still not marry because her time, established by society, has yet not come. You'd be suprised how many Western women equate commitment with family and marriage (more so the more Western the culture).
5. Logical reasons: The boyfriend is the public man, the man who is introduced to family, friends... He must meet a certain profile, which is usually the responsible beta profile. There in an incongruence here in that she isn't attracted to this profile, serving as yet another reason not to get into a relationship.
This encompasses the R-selected female MINDSET. A girl with this mindset hasn't necessarily slept with a lot of men, but under the right circumstances she would (lives alone, frequents clubs, access to online dating). These circumstances are being met at higher levels than ever before across many of the blue countries, meaning the percentages of girls who act on their mindset is rising, and is higher the more Western the country. Therefore, there are three types of young girls you will meet from cold approach:
1. Long-term single: She still has sex with men, some of whom want to be her boyfriend, but she doesn't want a boyfriend. In Anglo countries this is probably 50+% of women. The percentage is higher the more Westernized the culture.
2. Girls with boyfriends: If the girl is pressured by her family, and sometimes if she is lonely, she will make the logical decision to get into a relationship with a man who fits the right profile as mentioned above (usually beta, long-term-boyfriends are very rarely alpha males). Since it is a logical decision, almost never an emotional one, there is no attraction, which is why it is usually so easy to get these girls to cheat, barring cultural inhibitions (which are less and less the more Western the culture).
3. Girls looking for a boyfriend whose desired profile you don't fit: These will be the grand minority of girls. As an R-selected player and a foreigner, you will rarely fit the profile. Also, the cold approach itself puts you at a disadvantage here, as usually Western girls will form these relationships through social circle. A player will always do more damage to a girl's reputation, especially if he is foreign and cold-approached, than a beta male who already knows everybody. The cold-approach makes you her indiscretion, she classifies you from the beginning as the lover, the indiscretion, and essentially most girls in these cultures will not frame you as a boyfriend.
For this reason, an R-selected strategy is the only one that works. You cannot frame yourself as the boyfriend unless you meet her through social circle and are extremely lucky. K-selection simply doesn't work, which is why we don't use it. With R-selection you get girls with boyfriends, you get the long-term singles who don't want boyfriends, and you get the girls who are looking but classify you as a lover. If you frame yourself as a boyfriend you lose the girl before even getting the bang.
And yet, the problem with R-selection is that affairs end as fast as they begin. The reason for this is not that you took her to bed fast, or buyer's remorse, it is the mentality of the girl you are dealing with. If the girl doesn't want a boyfriend, she will stay with you (assuming you didn't label anything) as long as her FEELS tell her to. The moment the movie gets a bit bland (and nobody can keep it going forever) she will bail. For this reason Roosh speaks of lesser alphas being unable to secure the commitment of young Western girls. Even in Romania, which I gamed in personally and can attest to, she didn't keep most girls past a few bangs, and lost many after just one. Surely some were his choice, but some were not.
Therefore the only way to get into a relationship with a young Western girl is by either meeting her through her social circle and getting lucky, or making her fall in love with. The second is a feasable strategy, but you must have very tight game (remember you will be dealing with high-count women) and it will happen less that 20-30% of the time. It can be done, but with a ridiculously low ROI. I remember one time, in Poland of all places, a girl told me on the first date she didn't want a relationship (I lost 5 girls until I finally figured out it was an R-selected society, not K as I thought at first). We got into an open relationship, and after about 2 months she fell in love with me and demanded commitment.
With regards to the map, there is of course some guesswork, but from personal experience I can guarantee these places: Poland, Romania, Hungary, Czech Republic, Russia, Ukraine, Brazil, Spain (and by extension Argentina). I assume everyone agrees on Western Europe and the Anglosphere. A good rule of thumb is that the more Westernized the culture (look at how women dress on the streets, what their general beliefs are...), the more R-selected it will be. Needless to say not every country is the same, ASD also plays a role. In Hungary, for example, you will have to overcome resistance to get the bang, but the mindset is in your favour and she has probably had one-night-stands before. In America, an extreme version of R-selection, ASD is minimal and you can often bang with virtually no LMR (though this is often the case in Eastern Europe and South America aswell).
My solution to this is what many men, I believe, have done without realizing. I focus solely on the sexual aspect of relationships with R-selected girls. If I want to feel affection or tenderness in a relationship with a girl, if I am at a point in my life where I want that, I find a way of travelling to the red countries (in my case, Russia) to get it."
There's so much in this post to respond to, where does one even start?
WIA
WIA
Quote: (08-09-2014 09:28 AM)Nomad77 Wrote:
You want a girl to become a customer and a happy one at that. To do this you need to leave the girl happy and wanting more of you after each encounter. But this takes time of course. You can't build a relationship in one day.
PS I rarely pressure girls into sex. I get off way too much on girls wanting me. And if you build the sexual tension high enough girls will not only become buyers but forceful ones at that. I have had more than one instance where a girl said something to this effect, the first time: "you started this and now you are going to finish it! while pulling off my clothes." Sex is good but being desired is way better.
this is exactly how I feel. The time a girl told me while I was driving she was going to swallow my come before I got us home.... She was right, too. Another told me how loud it was going to get in the next 3 minutes...a huge turnon.
I think sexual tension is key, and seeing her only 1-2x a week [or less] keeps it amped up all the time, and then they don't flake because they are gagging for it when they see you next. I don't think I've ever had one flake on a date once we started banging, honestly.
Quote:Quote:
One of the most powerful tactically move I consider part of my arsenal today is actually withholding sex. In a world where getting sex from men on demand is the norm, the guy that does not give it, stands out - way out.
That has been a very useful move for me, many times in the past and today. You make a drunk girl sleep on your couch, or let her pass out on the bed, or refuse to fuck her in a dirty bar bathroom, she will be climbing into your bed in the morning to wake you up with a bj or fuck you all morning. I've had many, many examples of this in big cities and small towns.
I also think part of the 'sales' discussion comes down to Hard v Soft Sell. I wasn't a Hard Sell guy in Sales, but some of the best salesman I ever knew told me they liked my style better than theirs! I never honestly believed them given the epic success they were having, but I think they were just wishing they could close with a Soft Sell like I did every day.
A lot of guys on here seem to enjoy overcoming resistance. I guess it makes them feel more like a conqueror or alpha male. Personally, the best sex I have had is when the woman wants to please me not when I am working hard to convince her to have sex with me. Yes, all women will put up some resistance the first time but the level of resistance guys on here routinely work on overcoming makes me tired just reading about it. Hell, by the time I do all of that work I would be too tired to have sex.
Quote: (08-09-2014 10:01 PM)WestIndianArchie Wrote:
But now she's laughing at your jokes, she's reaching for your hand.
You gonna chalk this up to her being immediately sexually attracted to you @ 12:01
@ 12:15?
She might not even know how attracted she is to you, until later.
But at some level, something is keeping her there.
WIA, love your posts, but here's where I totally disagree with you. She has decided that you are sexually attractive within 5-15 seconds of seeing you.
She has made up her mind if you are 'hot' before 12:01.
Which is of course different than "I want to bang him tonite." That's where game comes in. And of course I agree that you can become more attractive to her over time. But if she doesn't find you sexually attractive in the first minute in some way...I'd say in almost never happens. [She can think you're not 'her type' and you can overcome that sure]
The 'reaching for your hand' is merely her signaling her interest more directly, rather than her just feeling it inside. JMHO.
I once told a woman I knew I wanted her within the first ten minutes. She goes, ten minutes, I knew within ten seconds! Attraction is not a choice as that DeAngelo guy said and we know it immediately. But that does not mean she wants to have sex with you on the first date or even the second. While attraction may not be a choice what we do about it is.
I took this one girl out on a first date and we clicked pretty well. It was a public event of some sorts during the day, a festival. Within an hour I first kissed her after sitting down with her in the grass in a quieter area. My first time doing a kiss like this, it was very natural. She told me after she's never had a first kiss like that so quick and she liked it because she was comfortable.
I brought her back to my place close by afterwards as a natural progression of the date.. Listen to music. I had plans to escalate, but most of what we did was kiss. She resisted non verbally any further escalation but I was okay with it.
A few days later.. invite her to my place to watch a movie in the evening, no drinks.
On my bed I had expected resistance, but I didn't try to take it much further. I legitimately wanted to watch a movie with her. It was fun and the vibe was very comfortable. I told her I had no expectations regarding escalating towards anything and the most important this was for her to be comfortable.
After the movie ended, long escalation story short we banged. A lot of resistance, and she showed a lot of hesitation, as you mention Nomad in your OP I was probably pressuring her a lot, within reason of course. She was satisfied after we had sex and told me she spent the time well, and was very sweet towards me. I liked her on the onset.
I told her I was free the next afternoon and we could get together again.
She came over after her classes and we had another good afternoon. She showed verbal and body language signs that she was getting emotionally attached to me, not too much but definitely somewhat for such a quick time frame. All this happened within a week.
I tried to plan another day with her a few days later, but she was very hesitant, and I flaked on her before she could on me. I felt something was up.
So I gave it a few days without texting her, give it some time.
8 days after I last saw her, we planned to meet up this afternoon. But she still had some hesitant subtext in her responses. 'What are we going to do?'
I told her not to worry we'd enjoy our evening and do something fun afterwards.
Of course I planned to bang her. But also since I liked her company take her out for a bite to eat, do something at the mall nearby, etc.
She tells me she doesn't want just sex and that I just want her for that. As you can see from the nature of my post I like to spend time with her.. But I'm not going to open her up to how I feel so easily. Although I did hint that of course I like to have sex with her, I enjoy her company, want to do some other things with her.. but to give it time and let's play it by ear. I'm just getting to know you I say.
She says she wants someone that takes her seriously.
I try not to react and remain cool with my responses, I teased her a bit and lifted some of the tension.. Basically according to her she's going to think about it.
Not that the result will matter. I'm travelling right now and go home next week, so I will have to cut off all these ties regardless. If she doesn't see me again it's probably better anyways because she will probably emotionally invest in me more and the cut off will hurt her harder.
I'm mostly asking to learn more about this situation. My response seems to 'lets play it by ear' but it might not be the best one.
Maybe also I have to change my game a little bit. It's either I go for sex quickly or too slowly. The former can get me the result but sometimes if it's a girl I'd like to have around this situation happens. The latter, too slow just hasn't worked for me at all. Every now and then I get a cool virgin girl as I find out after a couple dates and I tell myself I can play this one slow for once.. but after 4-5 dates and minimal progress the effort is diminishing returns.
The issue might be that I just haven't found the right balance yet.
What do you guys think?
I brought her back to my place close by afterwards as a natural progression of the date.. Listen to music. I had plans to escalate, but most of what we did was kiss. She resisted non verbally any further escalation but I was okay with it.
A few days later.. invite her to my place to watch a movie in the evening, no drinks.
On my bed I had expected resistance, but I didn't try to take it much further. I legitimately wanted to watch a movie with her. It was fun and the vibe was very comfortable. I told her I had no expectations regarding escalating towards anything and the most important this was for her to be comfortable.
After the movie ended, long escalation story short we banged. A lot of resistance, and she showed a lot of hesitation, as you mention Nomad in your OP I was probably pressuring her a lot, within reason of course. She was satisfied after we had sex and told me she spent the time well, and was very sweet towards me. I liked her on the onset.
I told her I was free the next afternoon and we could get together again.
She came over after her classes and we had another good afternoon. She showed verbal and body language signs that she was getting emotionally attached to me, not too much but definitely somewhat for such a quick time frame. All this happened within a week.
I tried to plan another day with her a few days later, but she was very hesitant, and I flaked on her before she could on me. I felt something was up.
So I gave it a few days without texting her, give it some time.
8 days after I last saw her, we planned to meet up this afternoon. But she still had some hesitant subtext in her responses. 'What are we going to do?'
I told her not to worry we'd enjoy our evening and do something fun afterwards.
Of course I planned to bang her. But also since I liked her company take her out for a bite to eat, do something at the mall nearby, etc.
She tells me she doesn't want just sex and that I just want her for that. As you can see from the nature of my post I like to spend time with her.. But I'm not going to open her up to how I feel so easily. Although I did hint that of course I like to have sex with her, I enjoy her company, want to do some other things with her.. but to give it time and let's play it by ear. I'm just getting to know you I say.
She says she wants someone that takes her seriously.
I try not to react and remain cool with my responses, I teased her a bit and lifted some of the tension.. Basically according to her she's going to think about it.
Not that the result will matter. I'm travelling right now and go home next week, so I will have to cut off all these ties regardless. If she doesn't see me again it's probably better anyways because she will probably emotionally invest in me more and the cut off will hurt her harder.
I'm mostly asking to learn more about this situation. My response seems to 'lets play it by ear' but it might not be the best one.
Maybe also I have to change my game a little bit. It's either I go for sex quickly or too slowly. The former can get me the result but sometimes if it's a girl I'd like to have around this situation happens. The latter, too slow just hasn't worked for me at all. Every now and then I get a cool virgin girl as I find out after a couple dates and I tell myself I can play this one slow for once.. but after 4-5 dates and minimal progress the effort is diminishing returns.
The issue might be that I just haven't found the right balance yet.
What do you guys think?
Well, for relationship game where you take it slow particularly with younger 'good girls,' there should be definitely escalating steps each time you go out. No different than escalating ONS just spread out over 4-5 dates.
Oversimplifying: 1) kiss 2) fondling and grinding 3) some/all nudity 4/5) genital touching, bj, sex. 6) bdsm, making a pron, orgies.
If the dates ever go 'backwards,' eject. I mean, unless she's having her period and is super anxious about it. Some girls are.
Oversimplifying: 1) kiss 2) fondling and grinding 3) some/all nudity 4/5) genital touching, bj, sex. 6) bdsm, making a pron, orgies.
If the dates ever go 'backwards,' eject. I mean, unless she's having her period and is super anxious about it. Some girls are.
Quote: (08-11-2014 04:02 PM)WestIndianArchie Wrote:
There's so much in this post to respond to, where does one even start?
WIA
Yeah - dunno, but you are on fucking fire WIA! +1 from me.
Interesting thread for sure and there's so much to think about.
But in my opinion I don't think that Roosh is usually using "high pressure sales tactics" nor are many other gamers who focus on ONS most of the time. It's all about target-selection, who's DTF, who's having fun and drinking and wants to party later etc. and then just not effing it up. Also about having a bit of luck to get to the end game of the after party back at your place. These girls are out there all the time and I really think as WIA said they come in all shapes and sizes but the key is there are girls that are ready to go every evening, every night. Lot of times the LMR thing is what trips me, and most other guys up and that's where the real expert gamers experience comes in to save the day. Sadly, I've messed this up more times than I've succeeded, mostly bc of how beta I was back in my younger days but also due to me getting too damn drunk to care and cockblocking myself.
Given that I'm in EE I generally don't chase ONS but when I got a ONS a few months ago back home I think I did 15 approaches over the course of the evening. I was pretty damn sure I picked the right girl by the end. I'd isolated, figured out she was ready to come back home with me to have some drinks, effectively dealt with her cockblocking friend, dropped a lot of bait about my place etc. I did a lot of work figuring out who if she was DTF basically. But there was really no pressure at all in fact I really feel like she wanted to get laid that particular night and picked me - after flirting with a lot of other guys all night.
I know there are many different scenarios re how ONS can go down, and I'm by no means a master at it, but I don't think it has to involve high pressure sales.
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I cringe reading Roosh overcoming resistance and get tired from the sheer labor intensiveness of it all...
Nomad what happened to that yoga lizard you were dating?
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Quote: (08-12-2014 06:48 PM)Nomad77 Wrote:
I once told a woman I knew I wanted her within the first ten minutes. She goes, ten minutes, I knew within ten seconds! Attraction is not a choice as that DeAngelo guy said and we know it immediately. But that does not mean she wants to have sex with you on the first date or even the second. While attraction may not be a choice what we do about it is.
How many times has a girl who was mad at you told you she was never attracted to you in the first place? However a chick is feeling in the moment is how she'll tell you she's always felt. Attraction isn't set in stone at first sight you can definitely do things to win girls over.
That is different. If is mad at you I am assuming you already have some sort of relationship which means she is attracted to you. Personally, I have never been able to do that. Sure, in a moment of weakness you can have some sex with any woman but I have never been able to have a relationship with a woman that wasn't attracted to me on some minimal level from the start. I have been able to increase attraction but never create it.
Yeah, it's like 100x harder to create than increase attraction.
Quote: (08-09-2014 09:28 AM)Nomad77 Wrote:
In reading Roosh latest book the one thing that caught my attention was the amount of girls he never saw again or only a few times. If the stats from the book holds true then I would guess he doesn't see more than 50% of the girls he bang's a second time and probably 80% more than a few times. This was amazing to me, given that it's very rare for a girl not to want to see me again even IF I don't bang her. So what's the difference between my approach and someone like Roosh? It's comes down to his objective - the ONS. The ONS is going for the close of a sale at all cost that night. To be successful at it you have to use high pressure sales tactics: alcohol + relentlessly breaking down any resistance. And while you may close the girl that night there is a very high chance she will feel less than happy the next day. Think of it this way, how do you feel when you have been sold something under pressure? It's not a good feeling and this is the reason used car salesmen have the reputation they have. Because they are notorious for using high pressure sales tactics to close sales.
In contrast, when you buy something and feel that it was your decision you are usually happy after the fact. The key difference is how much of the decision you feel was of your own choosing vs being pressured into the purchase. The more you feel that the decision was yours, the happier you will be after the purchase. The less you feel the decision was yours the more unhappy you will feel after the purchase. And this works exactly the same for sex. The more the girl feels that she made the decision to have sex the more happy she will feel after the sex and the more likely she will be wanting to see you again. After all, who wants to see someone again they associate with a bad experience.
ONS game by it's very objective requires high pressure tactics. You are trying to close the sale in a short time. But you have to understand that this will usually come at the price of having a repeat customer. If you are not looking for a repeat customer then fine, no problem. But if you are looking for the girl to come back for seconds, thirds, fourth, etc. then it's better not to use these tactics and leave her feeling good after each encounter. Relationship game is precisely about this. Make the girl feel good AFTER each encounter with you while advancing/building the relationship. It's just like someone doing business with you. If the first experience with you leaves them with a bad taste in their mouth why would they want to continue to do business with you? The exception to this is IF the girl wants to bang almost as much as you do and is actively contributing to that outcome.
ONS game and relationship requires different approaches. One is basically closing the sale at all cost. You are not looking for a customer, you are looking to make a sale - that night! Relationship game is not about one sale. It's about repeat sales. You want a girl to become a customer and a happy one at that. To do this you need to leave the girl happy and wanting more of you after each encounter. But this takes time of course. You can't build a relationship in one day.
PS I rarely pressure girls into sex. I get off way too much on girls wanting me. And if you build the sexual tension high enough girls will not only become buyers but forceful ones at that. I have had more than one instance where a girl said something to this effect, the first time: "you started this and now you are going to finish it! while pulling off my clothes." Sex is good but being desired is way better.
This is a great point. Nomad, can I ask you to elaborate on some techniques? Maybe some specific things you do that help you meet this end?
The fundamental difference between me and lot of guys is my objective. My objective with women are multiple LTR. If you are building something that you want to last you are going to go about it very differently than something you only need to last for one night. If you only want to have sex with a girl you actually want to convey to her that you DON'T want a relationship. If you objective is a relationship then you have to do the opposite: convey to her that you are not only interested in sex.
Quote: (12-01-2014 08:36 AM)Nomad77 Wrote:
The fundamental difference between me and lot of guys is my objective. My objective with women are multiple LTR. If you are building something that you want to last you are going to go about it very differently than something you only need to last for one night. If you only want to have sex with a girl you actually want to convey to her that you DON'T want a relationship. If you objective is a relationship then you have to do the opposite: convey to her that you are not only interested in sex.
I must admit I'm having a hard time with this. Where my difficulty comes in is screening which women are down for a LTR and who is down just for ONS. I have tried ONS game on girls who were LTR minded then LTR game on ONS minded girls and it has backfired. I use Plenty Of Fish and the girl usually says what they're looking for but I have learned not to take women at face value. Sometimes it works (I was super beta with my last LTR and somehow got her to fall in love with me but have since ditched beta game because I wasn't getting any sex and missing out on lays) but most of the time it doesnt.
And not to make this a race issue but I have noticed this has mostly came on dates with White American women (I'm black). I would try LTR game on them and they would bail after first or second date. My LTR game tends to be more successful with other races of women, but they get turned off by ONS game easily.
Quote: (12-02-2014 01:04 PM)MdWanderer Wrote:
Quote: (12-01-2014 08:36 AM)Nomad77 Wrote:
The fundamental difference between me and lot of guys is my objective. My objective with women are multiple LTR. If you are building something that you want to last you are going to go about it very differently than something you only need to last for one night. If you only want to have sex with a girl you actually want to convey to her that you DON'T want a relationship. If you objective is a relationship then you have to do the opposite: convey to her that you are not only interested in sex.
I must admit I'm having a hard time with this. Where my difficulty comes in is screening which women are down for a LTR and who is down just for ONS. I have tried ONS game on girls who were LTR minded then LTR game on ONS minded girls and it has backfired. I use Plenty Of Fish and the girl usually says what they're looking for but I have learned not to take women at face value. Sometimes it works (I was super beta with my last LTR and somehow got her to fall in love with me but have since ditched beta game because I wasn't getting any sex and missing out on lays) but most of the time it doesnt.
And not to make this a race issue but I have noticed this has mostly came on dates with White American women (I'm black). I would try LTR game on them and they would bail after first or second date. My LTR game tends to be more successful with other races of women, but they get turned off by ONS game easily.
Allow me to guide you to this recent ROK post. Pretty much answers your question and addresses your predicament to a tee
http://www.returnofkings.com/47823/the-p...n-the-west
MDP
A woman's standards for a ONS vs a LTR are going to be different. She may have a ONS with a Alpha but choose a Beta for a LTR. Look at it from the woman's point of view, why should she make a major investment in a relationship with someone that's not likely to stick around? It's easier to get a ONS from a woman than a relationship. Use to be it was easy to convert a FB/ONS into a relationship but since sex doesn't have the same meaning for women it did before this doesn't work so well anymore. Personally, I found it beneficial to exhibit some beta qualities to get relationships. How much, depends on the girl. But I've never been able to get a LTR acting like a pure Alpha. Actually, I have to work twice as hard as a regular guy because I am pegged as a player from the start. You have to think about what the woman is looking for. If she's out at a bar alone and already drunk, there's a good chance she's looking for a ONS.
Quote: (12-02-2014 01:20 PM)Nomad77 Wrote:
A woman's standards for a ONS vs a LTR are going to be different. She may have a ONS with a Alpha but choose a Beta for a LTR. Look at it from the woman's point of view, why should she make a major investment in a relationship with someone that's not likely to stick around? It's easier to get a ONS from a woman than a relationship. Use to be it was easy to convert a FB/ONS into a relationship but since sex doesn't have the same meaning for women it did before this doesn't work so well anymore. Personally, I found it beneficial to exhibit some beta qualities to get relationships. How much, depends on the girl. But I've never been able to get a LTR acting like a pure Alpha. Actually, I have to work twice as hard as a regular guy because I am pegged as a player from the start. You have to think about what the woman is looking for. If she's out at a bar alone and already drunk, there's a good chance she's looking for a ONS.
Yeah, agree. Older women and single moms have always been ONS from the start for me but it is the women around my age that's the toughest screening for them. Sex is no longer a problem for me but i'm in the mode now where I want to continue seeing girls continuosly and not be an "accidental" player. Last girl I banged in June looking back on it (she wasn't down to take things further) I was almost too Alpha it that makes sense. Negged and made fun of her, didn't pay for anything (she paid for my drinks at ticket to a baseball game), fingered her first night and banged the second, but didn't try to make a connection or look for any commonalities with her. She asked me right before sex "what is a good looking guy like you doing with a girl like me?" It was almost as though I was too "good" for her and she bailed.
I'll try to mix it up next time.
Quote: (12-02-2014 01:17 PM)MY DETROIT PLAYAS Wrote:
Quote: (12-02-2014 01:04 PM)MdWanderer Wrote:
Quote: (12-01-2014 08:36 AM)Nomad77 Wrote:
The fundamental difference between me and lot of guys is my objective. My objective with women are multiple LTR. If you are building something that you want to last you are going to go about it very differently than something you only need to last for one night. If you only want to have sex with a girl you actually want to convey to her that you DON'T want a relationship. If you objective is a relationship then you have to do the opposite: convey to her that you are not only interested in sex.
I must admit I'm having a hard time with this. Where my difficulty comes in is screening which women are down for a LTR and who is down just for ONS. I have tried ONS game on girls who were LTR minded then LTR game on ONS minded girls and it has backfired. I use Plenty Of Fish and the girl usually says what they're looking for but I have learned not to take women at face value. Sometimes it works (I was super beta with my last LTR and somehow got her to fall in love with me but have since ditched beta game because I wasn't getting any sex and missing out on lays) but most of the time it doesnt.
And not to make this a race issue but I have noticed this has mostly came on dates with White American women (I'm black). I would try LTR game on them and they would bail after first or second date. My LTR game tends to be more successful with other races of women, but they get turned off by ONS game easily.
Allow me to guide you to this recent ROK post. Pretty much answers your question and addresses your predicament to a tee
http://www.returnofkings.com/47823/the-p...n-the-west
Yep I read it, probably 10 years too late. Banged tons of white girls but never seriously dated one, but have dated one Black girl and a Chinese girl. And I used UBER beta game on the black girl, believe it or not. Black girls seem to respond well to my beta game but I lose white girls using the same thing (and I grew up around white people so I don't have too much connection with black culture). When I use alpha game on black women it doesn't seem to work for some reason.
Quote: (08-10-2014 02:00 PM)Ensam Wrote:
So Nomad77, how do you handle the girls who want the hardsell?
I'm sure every dude has come across a girl who put up a shit ton of last minute resistance and then got upset when he didn't push through. This is one of the greatest mindfucks women pull on blue pill guys who respect no-means-no (for the lurkers: of course no always means no - except when it doesn't).
It's a REALLY unpleasant experience. Trust me, I hit this wall pretty commonly.
![[Image: undecided.gif]](https://rooshvforum.network/images/smilies/undecided.gif)
Eat. Sleep. Approach. Repeat.
I don't do hard sells. I want a woman to be a contributing partner when it comes to sex. I want her to desire it almost as much as I do. Overcoming LMR is no fun for me. A ONS/FB is about getting SEX from a girl. A LTR is about getting LOVE from a girl. Sex is usually included in the love but love is not usually included in ONS sex. My objective with women is always to be loved and desired. The sex is always secondary and some times a chore.
Don't misunderstand me, I like sex. I just don't feel I should have to work like a dog to get it and I want sex with girls that want it too. I actually enjoy all the phrases of the interaction with women. I have come to learn that many times, the anticipation of something, wanting something, can be more enjoyable than having it. And we really only appreciate and value things we work for.
Don't misunderstand me, I like sex. I just don't feel I should have to work like a dog to get it and I want sex with girls that want it too. I actually enjoy all the phrases of the interaction with women. I have come to learn that many times, the anticipation of something, wanting something, can be more enjoyable than having it. And we really only appreciate and value things we work for.
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