[Dalaran1991]

This might belong in the books section but I feel like this is a lot more about lifestyle, morality and conduct, so feel free to move.

Im reading Business Brilliant: Surprising Lessons from the Greatest Self-Made Business Icons on amazon. In it Lewis Schiff explains how billionnaires differ to normal people in their successful Machiavellian manipulation and diplomacy. Im only starting but I got really hooked. The Prince was one of my favorite read.

Im asking for more resources on this specific type of interpersonal dynamic. Being Machiavellian does not necessarily means intentionally harmful to others. It just means to cover your ass first, which is what we need to do in this day and age. Its also based on the simple truth that despite some goodness here and there, the world as a whole is FUBAR.

Despite how many nice and successful people Ive met, Ive come to the conclusion that, success is very much tied to good handling of people and knowing what button to push. Its like game, but doesnt have to do with women.

The world change a lot since 16th century, so just wanna know if theres a must read somewhere that Im missing.

Btw feel free to discuss your take on the issue. Love to hear it.

[Benoit]

Robert Greene - 48 Laws of Power

All the advice is completely amoral and wildly effective.

[Saweeep]

Well the world has changed since the 16th Century; people however, have not.

Start with the Prince.

[Dalaran1991]

(07-29-2014 09:49 AM)Benoit Wrote:  

Robert Greene - 48 Laws of Power

All the advice is completely amoral and wildly effective.

Oh nice! Exactly what I was talking about. Thanks man! Im no longer at the point where I care about morality. Its a luxury of the rich which the rich rarely uses.

@Crash: I said in the OP, I know the Prince by heart..... I've also done a search function that only returns 2 results, albeit good read>

[Saweeep]

(07-29-2014 12:11 PM)Dalaran1991 Wrote:  

(07-29-2014 09:49 AM)Benoit Wrote:  

Robert Greene - 48 Laws of Power

All the advice is completely amoral and wildly effective.

Oh nice! Exactly what I was talking about. Thanks man! Im no longer at the point where I care about morality. Its a luxury of the rich which the rich rarely uses.

@Crash: I said in the OP, I know the Prince by heart..... I've also done a search function that only returns 2 results, albeit good read>

Oops, sorry.

Greene's War book is equally as good and useful as his Power tome.

[kinjutsu]

Yes!!! The 33 Strategies of War is an amazing book. Definitely worth a read.

[Heathree]

If you put yourself first, do very little to help others, you are bound to get further in life then taking the opposite stance.

Manipulation is a good thing to reach these goals. While Robert Green's book is good as an abstract, have yet to come across that breaks things down further from a practical perspective. Like for example, how to through verbal communication put the other person on the back so that you get your way. Any suggestions on this?

[Dragonstone]

Having read all 3 books referenced above, I'd say they are the best commonly available sources on the subject.

However, I'd be one of the first to admit that 48 Laws in particular doesn't really give the most detailed advice on any particular situation, and 33 Strategies requires you to have a firm understanding of your enviroment to benefit from the book.

[Dalaran1991]

Putting them all on my reading list. This is Game material anyways.

Im glad that none of you guys are those political correct BS apehead out there, who actually got shat on and manipulated by almost everyone around them.

I see this simply as arming myself to deal with the fucked up world. I always treat people who do nice things to me with utmost respect, but nobody wants to be somebody's pawn. And since everyone is in this game anyway, better that you are the one having the upper hand. This is coming from a guy who used to hold honesty above every thing, even GPA at high school where every classmates were cheating.

Also, to share my experience: karma is a myth. Sure, do it if it makes you feel better. But growing up in a Buddist family I've always questioned why is it that in real life the bad yet smart guys always benefits and actually live for fucking long with good health and girls and bling. While the good and honest people, while respected by some, actually struggle through life. Just look around you, Im sure you know some manipulating asshole who just seem to pile up on gud luck and fortune, while the nice guy who would give a stranger a ride home get used and manipulated by everyone.

I'm even thinking that karma is simply another cultural tool of the power elite, just like Confucianism, to control the masses. Given that most Asian countries are authoritarian/dictatorial this might damn well be true.

If you can advance your lot in life without stepping on TOO much toes, do it. And when needs be, be cruel. Just dont fuck over good friends or family.

Even if the whole heaven and hell shit are real, I would pick hell anyway. There's drug, booze and naked bitches down there

[Saweeep]

The world is shit and most people are worse than that. Best to accept that and learn to deal with it properly.

[Heathree]

(07-29-2014 05:31 PM)Dalaran1991 Wrote:  

Putting them all on my reading list. This is Game material anyways.

Im glad that none of you guys are those political correct BS apehead out there, who actually got shat on and manipulated by almost everyone around them.

I see this simply as arming myself to deal with the fucked up world. I always treat people who do nice things to me with utmost respect, but nobody wants to be somebody's pawn. And since everyone is in this game anyway, better that you are the one having the upper hand. This is coming from a guy who used to hold honesty above every thing, even GPA at high school where every classmates were cheating.

Also, to share my experience: karma is a myth. Sure, do it if it makes you feel better. But growing up in a Buddist family I've always questioned why is it that in real life the bad yet smart guys always benefits and actually live for fucking long with good health and girls and bling. While the good and honest people, while respected by some, actually struggle through life. Just look around you, Im sure you know some manipulating asshole who just seem to pile up on gud luck and fortune, while the nice guy who would give a stranger a ride home get used and manipulated by everyone.

I'm even thinking that karma is simply another cultural tool of the power elite, just like Confucianism, to control the masses. Given that most Asian countries are authoritarian/dictatorial this might damn well be true.

If you can advance your lot in life without stepping on TOO much toes, do it. And when needs be, be cruel. Just dont fuck over good friends or family.

Even if the whole heaven and hell shit are real, I would pick hell anyway. There's drug, booze and naked bitches down there

I am not sure there is such a thing as good friends, people will throughout your life come and go. Where I am at the moment, in the UK, the modus operandi of prople appears one of people of be nice and friendly in your company but behind the mask scheme and totally ready to plunge the dagger.

[Heathree]

(07-30-2014 03:02 AM)Heathree Wrote:  

(07-29-2014 05:31 PM)Dalaran1991 Wrote:  

Putting them all on my reading list. This is Game material anyways.

Im glad that none of you guys are those political correct BS apehead out there, who actually got shat on and manipulated by almost everyone around them.

I see this simply as arming myself to deal with the fucked up world. I always treat people who do nice things to me with utmost respect, but nobody wants to be somebody's pawn. And since everyone is in this game anyway, better that you are the one having the upper hand. This is coming from a guy who used to hold honesty above every thing, even GPA at high school where every classmates were cheating.

Also, to share my experience: karma is a myth. Sure, do it if it makes you feel better. But growing up in a Buddist family I've always questioned why is it that in real life the bad yet smart guys always benefits and actually live for fucking long with good health and girls and bling. While the good and honest people, while respected by some, actually struggle through life. Just look around you, Im sure you know some manipulating asshole who just seem to pile up on gud luck and fortune, while the nice guy who would give a stranger a ride home get used and manipulated by everyone.

I'm even thinking that karma is simply another cultural tool of the power elite, just like Confucianism, to control the masses. Given that most Asian countries are authoritarian/dictatorial this might damn well be true.

If you can advance your lot in life without stepping on TOO much toes, do it. And when needs be, be cruel. Just dont fuck over good friends or family.

Even if the whole heaven and hell shit are real, I would pick hell anyway. There's drug, booze and naked bitches down there

I am not sure there is such a thing as good friends, people will throughout your life come and go. Where I am at the moment, in the UK, the modus operandi of the general population appears being nice and friendly in your company but behind the mask scheming and totally ready to plunge the dagger.

[Dalaran1991]

Starting on the 48 laws of power. Awesome read, though it might not be a coincidence that I feel like Im reading a Game manual

Havent finished the book yet but I hope it has good practical application. Its always about application and efficiency. Manipulation works wonder if you are good with it, but if you have half a brain and try to use the tools of the devil you will end up selling your soul with nothing in return. Anyone got advice on applying these laws in real life? I ll do a book review ASAP

EDIT: reading through all the laws, Ive come to the conclusion that you really need to beat down your ego and have patience. A lot of successful techniques rely on playing dumb and elevate the "right" idiots you despise

I think we all know that one manipulator who thinks herself so smart but actually got despised by everyone except the occasional dummy. Those can never amount to greatness. The most successful schemers are the ones who appear the most innocent.

Its not the common masses with no sense that we are trying to manipulate, but an adversary who is on his guard with equal leverage. Especially in Game, women have much more experience and social intelligence than the average man.

@Heathree: I agree, all my friends and bros I keep on a short leash, but again, no reason to harm others if they intent you no harm...yet

[Benoit]

(07-30-2014 04:11 AM)Dalaran1991 Wrote:  

I think we all know that one manipulator who thinks herself so smart but actually got despised by everyone except the occasional dummy. Those can never amount to greatness. The most successful schemers are the ones who appear the most innocent.

The 48 laws are practical advice, the trap is when your ego fights against implementing them.

In that situation, they usually broke these rules:
Law 4 - Always Say Less than Necessary
Law 21 - Play a Sucker to Catch a Sucker – Seem Dumber than your Mark

It's almost always a woman whose obvious manipulations make people despise her. That's because they see themselves as smarter than everyone and behave in a way that makes it obvious.

They just can't shut up and feel superior, everyone has to recognise it for them to be happy. Don't be like that.

[Felix88]

I'm not so sure about 48 laws of power, it's an interesting read but not very applicable, I don't believe in viewing the world as all dark and I just think it's all a big joke.

That said Dale Carnegie's How to win friends and people, though I don't consider it's about manipulation.

Here is Thomas the Rhymer's excellent review of the book
http://www.rooshvforum.network/thread-18092-...15012.html

Also read Influence: Psychology of Persuasion

[el conquistador]

(07-29-2014 03:22 PM)Heathree Wrote:  

If you put yourself first, do very little to help others, you are bound to get further in life then taking the opposite stance.

The marketplace/business/employer does not care what your needs and passions are. If you help others with their needs, passions, problems etc. they will hand over their money and devotion.

If you put yourself first and don't provide any value to others you will be flipping burgers your whole life.

This isn't liberal, politically correct BS its TACTICAL.

There is some negativity on this thread about 'the world being a fucked up place, people are shit' etc. This vibe will come through in your interactions with people and you won't do well in game or business.

[Dalaran1991]

(07-30-2014 04:35 AM)Felix88 Wrote:  

I'm not so sure about 48 laws of power, it's an interesting read but not very applicable, I don't believe in viewing the world as all dark and I just think it's all a big joke.

That said Dale Carnegie's How to win friends and people, though I don't consider it's about manipulation.

Here is Thomas the Rhymer's excellent review of the book
http://www.rooshvforum.network/thread-18092-...15012.html

Also read Influence: Psychology of Persuasion

I read How to win friends and influence people. It should be taught at primary school.

Though it has a lot of good stuff, I dont think it prepares you for the machinations of this world. Ofc, to each his own, but reading the 48 laws I shudder to realize how many important and seemingly innocent people I know who are master schemers, and that Im completely vulnerable to them if they do choose to strike me down.

Game tends to cultivate a sense of IDGAF in players, which I adopted and I actually neglected the rumors and backstabbing in my social circle bc I couldnt give a flying fuck. Boy did that cost me. Unless you are a total nomad like Roosh then I think Machiavellian game is a very canny and insidious counterbalance to the fiery attitude in Game, since most of us dont have the means to be completely location independent. That means we will depends on social circles and certain people to success

Also game itself is manipulation: http://www.rooshvforum.network/thread-36065....machiavell

@elconquistador: No one said you have to always walk on some toes. The books actually teach how to give people more than u can afford at the right timing to ensure future gain; We call that investment. Also it should go without saying that you should never try to outmaneuver someone smarter.

[Benoit]

(07-30-2014 04:56 AM)el conquistador Wrote:  

The marketplace/business/employer does not care what your needs and passions are. If you help others with their needs, passions, problems etc. they will hand over their money and devotion.

Helping others is normally acting in your own self-interest to gain benefits. Normally only people with a martyr complex will act selflessly, to their own detriment.

Quote:

If you put yourself first and don't provide any value to others you will be flipping burgers your whole life.

This isn't liberal, politically correct BS its TACTICAL.

Tactics vs Strategy. "Losing the battle to win the war"

Quote:

There is some negativity on this thread about 'the world being a fucked up place, people are shit' etc. This vibe will come through in your interactions with people and you won't do well in game or business.

Agree 100%. Never let people know that you despise them, be a positive person in your interactions with others.

[Saweeep]

(07-30-2014 04:56 AM)el conquistador Wrote:  

(07-29-2014 03:22 PM)Heathree Wrote:  

If you put yourself first, do very little to help others, you are bound to get further in life then taking the opposite stance.

There is some negativity on this thread about 'the world being a fucked up place, people are shit' etc. This vibe will come through in your interactions with people and you won't do well in game or business.

I don't think that;s necessarily true; one just has to have a healthy dose of cynicism in the back of your mind when dealing with others.

My grandmother always used to say "I didn't start out cynical…other people made me this way".

[2014]

"The 50th Law" - Robert Greene and 50 cent, book or my preference the audio book. Real world Machiavellian shit, 21st century style IMO

bunch of quotes here: https://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/62...e-50th-law

[Dragonstone]

(07-30-2014 04:56 AM)el conquistador Wrote:  

(07-29-2014 03:22 PM)Heathree Wrote:  

If you put yourself first, do very little to help others, you are bound to get further in life then taking the opposite stance.

The marketplace/business/employer does not care what your needs and passions are. If you help others with their needs, passions, problems etc. they will hand over their money and devotion.

If you put yourself first and don't provide any value to others you will be flipping burgers your whole life.

This isn't liberal, politically correct BS its TACTICAL.

There is some negativity on this thread about 'the world being a fucked up place, people are shit' etc. This vibe will come through in your interactions with people and you won't do well in game or business.

I would hope that people wouldn't read that we shouldn't help others at all. That is a quick way to lose friends and lose people.

The issue I see is that for most of us, there is no one else representing our interests on a daily basis. When you boss sets your salary, is he looking out for you? When you're buying a house, is your realtor looking out for you or his commission? Are advertisers looking to get you hair spray that attracts people, or sell hair spray?

[Heathree]

(07-30-2014 05:19 PM)Dragonstone Wrote:  

(07-30-2014 04:56 AM)el conquistador Wrote:  

(07-29-2014 03:22 PM)Heathree Wrote:  

If you put yourself first, do very little to help others, you are bound to get further in life then taking the opposite stance.

The marketplace/business/employer does not care what your needs and passions are. If you help others with their needs, passions, problems etc. they will hand over their money and devotion.

If you put yourself first and don't provide any value to others you will be flipping burgers your whole life.

This isn't liberal, politically correct BS its TACTICAL.

There is some negativity on this thread about 'the world being a fucked up place, people are shit' etc. This vibe will come through in your interactions with people and you won't do well in game or business.

I would hope that people wouldn't read that we shouldn't help others at all. That is a quick way to lose friends and lose people.

The issue I see is that for most of us, there is no one else representing our interests on a daily basis. When you boss sets your salary, is he looking out for you? When you're buying a house, is your realtor looking out for you or his commission? Are advertisers looking to get you hair spray that attracts people, or sell hair spray?

If you are not selfish and altruistic, you will end up flipping burgers. This is going to sound bad but the thing to do is, give the impression you are caring and helpful to others but you are ultimately look out for yourself. I think that is the attitude of the majority of people.

Society (which is effectively a group of people) would take a negative stance on it because it is not helping them and it can be argued that, is being selfish and looking out for themselves.

[Griprip08]

Robert Greene also has a book about Seuction as well. It's a great read as it gives historical examples of ageless gaming mechanics, skill-sets, types of "targets", types of seducers etc. etc. It's like the neo-venusians army manual. "Art of seduction". And yes 48 Laws of power is great, although I mostly use it as a reference now.

Also, he wrote a book with Cutris Jackson (Who I was surprised to find out is a bit more intelligent and business savvy than I previously imagined), it dives about the theory and practice of absolute fearlessness.

[Dalaran1991]

Im gonna read every major work of Greene just in case. He seems to have a very strategic analyses of situation.

Also here is a blog post that describe Machiavelism in a decent way

http://illimitablemen.com/2013/12/02/uti...ellianism/

[Heathree]

While Robert Green's book is a good starting point, it is basic in that it does not delve deeper into practical levels.

I am looking for a book or resource with practical examples. For example, I noticed if you want to get your way, put the other person on the backfoot emotionally. Tell them about something they've done done wrong or perhaps a mistake they've made at a work task. When they are feeling bad about it, tell them you are going to proceed with something (which involves them ) that they may not agree readily in normal sutuations. In such a case, you can close the deal which gets things going your way.