[sand]

Hey guys, I've been meaning to drop a few style data sheets because you all have helped me a lot and my strength is style. I used to work as a stylist at barneys, but even before then style has been my hobby. I was the denim expert at barneys so I know denim pretty well.

I read the few recent denim threads and first I want to straighten a few things out. Men originally started as work wear, real denim is probably one of the most masculine things a man can own. When it comes to quality, how long a pair of jeans lasts or its softness is no indication of quality. Old school denim was built for men to use everyday for jobs like mining, hunting, and ranching and they only used one pair.

Saying that your denim lasted 4 years doesnt really mean anything if you wore it on weekends to lunch in a rotation of five other pairs. Wearing denim while prospecting for gold everyday and having that pair last 15 years is quality. Men used to use on pair and wear it well. Less is more, although denim might seem expensive 1 pair of good jeans is a much better investment than 6 pairs of crap.
I personally own 3 pairs (my daily jeans that I beat up, my “dress” jeans for a blazer, and skinny black jeans for going out or when I DJ) Expect to pay around 200+ for a pair of good denim.


Raw denim-

First, raw denim is denim that has never been washed or treated. This way the denim is stuff and dark when you buy it and you'll break it in over time. It might take about 6 monthes to begin to break in but I'll be worth it. The fades will be based on you movement so it reflects you. Always have an iphone? You'll get an iPhone or wallet fade in your back pocket over time, or a saddle fade if you rode motorcycles and bikes.

Selvedge-
Selvedge denim means it was made on an old style loom. This means the denim is weaved together at the end making a much stronger hold. (the word selvedge comes from “self-edge”) Conversely cheaper jeans are cut and the edges are sown together.



^ what selvedge looks like.

Denim Quality- The best denim in the world comes from Japan. Although Americans invented it, the Japanese has perfected it. Japanese jeansmiths have come to the US and replicated their exact process but haven’t gotten the same results. The mill of the denim will usually be marked, any of the big mills in Japan are good. Denim from the white oak mill in North Carolina is the best american Denim.
Fits: Jeans that fit well are going to cost more because mass produced jeans are made to be marketed towards the average out of shape americans. Because good fits sell less, they are rarer and more expensive but good to find.

Bootleg: Unless you are a cowboy or have huge caves...dont

Straight: The denim has the same fit from the thigh all the way to the ankle.

Slim Straight: the Denim has the same cut through out the leg but is slimmer but still allows some room.

Slim Tappered: The leg begins smaller and tighter usually from the knee down

Skinny: the leg slims down from the very top of the thigh to the ankle

Jean Examples:

Entry-Level

APC- these are probably the most known raw jeans. The quality is okay but they do look and fit really good and fade pretty nicely pretty easily. Size down 1-3 sizes as they stretch. The Petit Standard is great for skinny guys, New Standard is good for everyone else. Stay away from the new cures.
Price: 155-180

3sixteen- made by real denim heads this is probably the biggest bang for your buck. super high quality, minimal branding, cut in the US with japanese denim. They have 2 cuts, tapered and straight. Both are great. Think denim, tattoos, pomade and cigerettes.
Price: 200-300

Levis Vintage Clothing- These are the best jeans levis makes because well they invented jeans. LVC goes back into levis archives and produced them by hand the same way they were back in the day. My daily wear is the LCV 1957 505. Do your research. This is Steve Mcqueen type stuff.

Acne Jeans- Although I wouldnt recommend the raw, every man needs a pair of black jean and these are great. Look for the Cash or Stay Cash color. Stay cash is overdyed black so it doesnt fade overtime. They strech a bit. The Max is a good fit. Think nordic DJ who just flew in from berlin and hasnt slept in 28 hours but still looks surprisingly well groomed.

Also, if the 200 range is too much best jeans under 200 are Levis Shrink to Fit (55) and Uniqlo (30-50). Almost everything else at that price range is crap. True religion, lucky brand, sevens. All crap. Really low quality stuff that screams “I think i am wealthy because i spent 135 on crap jeans at an outlet mall in orlando” Not trying to insult anyone but not it’s not what an international playboy should be wearing.

If anyone has any questions about mid to high end jeans I can make some recs. Also if anyone wants to know anything about fashion jeans (which are a whole another category; balmain, rick, dior) I can PM you or make a different thread.

Feel free to ask me anything about size,brands, fit.

[generalstore44]

Thanks a lot for these tips. Ive always been big into designer jeans but I bought them because of the name, never knowing anything about the actual quality. Not that I disagree, but I'm curious as to why trues and 7s are bad? how do diesel and hudson compare as well?

[sand]

I used to be the same way. In fact, it was because a clerk once was like "no, I won't sell you the sevens" and gave me the LVCs that I got into denim.I was really bummed that day because all the wealthy kids wore sevens but that was 5 years ago, still wearing those LVCs.

Trues and 7s are mostly machine made with low quality denim. Although it may not seem that way, compare the feel of them with a pair of raw jeans and youll feel how flimsly the denim feels. This is because it's sourced from cheap readily available cotton rather than the specialized cotton required for denim.

Diesel is a little better but still wildly overpriced for quality. Hudson has a few good pairs every now and then but still overpriced. The most common criticisim is they are pre-distressed and pre-faded. The fades will not match the shape of your legs and it looks inauthentic. Back in the day Denim fades and distressing came from hard-work, grit, and generally manly activities. Pre-distressed jeans are seen by denim heads as made for guys who aren't rugged enough to get their jeans distressed and faded so they had to go to a store and buy it that way.

Authenticity and aesthetics asides, a lot of their washes of the designer jeans are faded with chemicals which isn't good for you health wise and for the environment.

[WestIndianArchie]

Where are you buying your Levi's?

In a Levi's company store?
At the mall?
Online?

WIA

[WestIndianArchie]

And do you sit in a bathtub when you buy them? And then walk around in them to dry them off?

WIA

[Parlay44]

What would you recommend for a denim jacket? I'm looking for something casual that you can sport just about anywhere. Cool but not ghetto or too flashy.

[sand]

I buy them at barneys. Barneys outlets usually get LVCs because most barneys customers don't realize that they aren't normal Levi's. The 300 dollar 505s show up for 60-100.

The Levi's stores sometimes will have them. J Crew in bigger cities sell them as well.

[Atlantic]

Great datasheet, +1.

Do you switch your phone around to avoid leaving marks or just go with it?

Also how often do you wash them/how/and what way do you dry them?
Also what if you spill some food/drink on them for example - do you machine wash them again or just wipe them down.

Thanks

[sand]

WIA- I generally don't because I like the fades to come naturally but they do make the fades look great. I will probably with my next pair. I wouldn't do it until after wearing them for at least 6-9 months. The best thing is to wear them in the tub, air dry them for a bit, then wear them dry but be careful because indigo will be dripping everywhere. Another way is to wear them to the beach and walk into the water with them for a 15-30 minutes, then come out wear them for a bit, dry them in the sand and pat all the sand off before you get home. Some thing about the salt water and sand makes the fades look really good.

Parlay- There are a lot of great denim jackets. Not sure of your price range but the suggestions are ascending in price:
Levis raw trucker jacket is pretty great. (extremely versitle, looks good and is 78 dollars. Best bet)
Rogue Terroritory's supply denim jacket is good but the styling is too minimalist for some.
RRL makes great denim jackets but they are tough to find so ebay will be your friend on this one.
Iron Heart, Mister Freedom and sugar cane make great ones but they are pricey (400+)

I live in florida so i actually own a denim shirt which I use as jacket for the slim cool, not puffy or ghetto look. I ordered one a few years ago from taylor stitch. Its not listed on the website but you can call and ask if they have the "flatout denim shirt" Most of their stuff is limited but there is a chance. If you're built skip the shirt and go for a jacket instead.

Atlantic- You're most certainly welcome Atlantic. I wash them about 2-3 times a year(after the initial 9-12 monthes without washing) and hang dry them outside. I wash them alone with woolite dark fabric detergent, cold, on the most gentle setting. Then I let them sit outside for a while and wear them before they are completely dry so they do not shrink and form around my body. I usually just dab with a wet towel when I spill something. Most common stains (soda, sauces) will come right off good denim without even water because of the strength of the indigo dye.

[Basil Ransom]

If you have a big ass, how do you prevent the crotch from blowing out?

Bonobos sells pants with a curved waistband, and I really like the silhouette they create. Are there many denim brands that offer it, and do you think this is a valuable feature?

What principally differentiates fashion denim from the denim that you've discussed?

What would you recommend for a fitted, dark wash but not black, 'dressy' masculine denim? Preferably with a tapered leg.

My pants always tear in the crotch first (the cross seam where your taint is... I threw out a pair because when I sat down I could see my nuts peaking out. While I'm sympathetic to the idea of spending for quality, I hesitate because of this issue.

[game_ethic]

My personal favorite sports for buying denim jeans are Superdry and Nudie. Lately I've been wearing Naked and Famous and I'm impressed by its quality despite its relatively low priced jeans(compared to say, true religion, nudie, g-star, etc). I think most of my jeans are denim haha, that's all I wear. I owe about 10 pairs.

Nice data sheet!

[cool]

what do you do for muscular legs? I used to have a pair of Naked & Famous that I liked and fit great everywhere except through the thigh. Just too damn tight. Same thing with my Levis.

I don't even have huge legs, just muscular.

[game_ethic]

You probably bought a skinny fit. Try wearing slim straight or just plain straight.

[evilhei]

How to prevent jeans wearing out between tights? I usually can wear pair of jeans 2-3 months and then they have holes between legs and I buy new ones. Is it only me and is there any way to avoid it?

[DJ-Matt]

Are the Levi Vintage the ones made in the USA? Or does no one make them here anymore.

[sand]

Basil, what's your waist like? Most jeans are made with low or mid rise. A low rise on a high waisted person can put a lot of stress on that area. Or vice versa.

Also crotch blow outs are bound the most common form of jean damage. Most owners of raw denim will end up getting a crotch repair a few years into owning a pair of jeans. An Average tailor can not do this, you need a denim shops. What they do is weave new denim into your existing denim which reinforces the area. It also builds a better fit to put less stess on the area. The repair adds personality too. I've shipped a pair to self edge in NY and they did a great job. Picked it up in person and the dude was blasting mastodon, smoking, and working away on a 1950's singer loom. It's like a how you need a cobbler for a good pair of shoes, it's needs repairs but is still a better investment.

In principle, fashion denim is different because it is not aiming to emulate American workwear denim but rather the fashion Houses aesthetic so all these rules go out the window. The idea is different. Distressing isn't meant to disguise itself as real distressing but is meant to be part of the design and unrealistic. It isn't about quality or authenticity but purely aesthetic. It should be seen as part of a designers collection that happens to be made of denim rather then denim jeans. This distinction was cleverly examined by yohji yamamoto who is a extremely influential deconstructionilist who made "jeans" that were wool dress pants with screen printed images of Levi's 501s on them, giving the appereance of jeans but the drape and texture of wool dress pants. (Let me know if my explanation makes any sense)

Id go with the straight leg of 3sixteens in indigo. They will fade overtime. If you don't want that, look for an overdyed jean.

[sand]

Cool, take your best fitting pants in the thigh and lay them out. Measure the width of the thigh from an inch below the crotch and +/- .5 iches to that depending on the fit. Then use sites like blue owl and look at the thigh measurement of different jeans. The naked and famous weird guy is pretty good for guys with bigger thighs. What Levi's style are you wearing?

Evil, what kind of jeans are you buying? It might just be the quality or the fit.

Matt, the made in the US ones are not the same as the LVC although some LVC is made in the US but most is made in turkey. A lot of denim is still made in the US. Raleigh Denim makes everything (from cotton to metal riverts) in North Carolina, Roy is a one man show made by a guy in a cabin, citizens of humanity is made in LA, RRL are made in the hamptons. Although the Japanese mills make the best swim, the US still makes the greatest cuts (optimal quality is japenese denim that is imported than made by US Jeansmiths)

[evilhei]

[qoute]

Evil, what kind of jeans are you buying? It might just be the quality or the

[/quote]

Most recently i bought Levi 508. I usually buy jeans around 80-100. Maybe I should buy more expensive?

[Alpha_Romeo]

Great thread.

What's your take on Levis 501s? I bought a pair 5 months ago, and when I tried them on in the store (size 32 in the waist), I found them to be a bit snug, thinking that this was going to be a problem. The shop assistant said that they would stretch out a bit, so I took a chance and purchased them. The first week or two, they were pretty snug, however they eventually relaxed out, so much that they now have a baggy appearance (roomy crotch, seat, etc.). Should I have gone with a size 31 and suffered through to get a perfect fit? I try to avoid washing them too much, as I like the darker appearance.

Also, how often do you wash your denim, and any special treatment in this regard (hang dry, etc.)?

[Wreckingball]

good thread! Altough there is already a thread about this lost somewhere.

I know that when i go to the states again, i'll buy a couple of Levis for sure. here they go around 80€-90€

[Basil Ransom]

My waist is 33.5-34" around the Iliac crest (pelvic bones on the side), hips about 41" at the widest point. How do I tell if I am a high waisted person? Also, the waist is technically the narrowest point between the chest and the hips, and my technical waist is a lot higher than most people's, about 2" above my navel - my waist has a bit of an 'hourglass' shape.

Do you have any opinion on Rogue Territory? Just came across them online, they're made and sold locally here in LA.

That's a fascinating story about the deconstructilist, I'm going to look into that.

[TigerMandingo]

Cool thread. Whats your take on 7 for all mankind and would you recommend them over, lets say, Diesel or Boss jeans?

[sand]

The 501 is a great jean. It has been around for over a century and has been perfected over time. So there are two types of denim, sanfordized (pre shrunk) and unsandordized. Preshrunk Levi's are likely going to stretch 5% after buying it.

Buy a pair of 501 shrink to fits. Size up one in the waist to what you usually wear. Then put them in a tub with the hottest water possible. Put objects over them because they float. After 20 minutes take them out and hang dry them. (They will drop so do it over a tub) Then when they are moist and not wet wear them until they dry.

Basil, try this as well I think it's your best bet and a great way to start with raw denim.

[sand]

Rogue territory is really wonderful. Great material with a lot of passion behind that brand. If your in LA definitely go and try some on. The Stanton 14.5 would be a great fit for you. Made from a great mill too. Japanese denim cut and sewn in the us. It will stretch around .5-1 waist size over time. The break in periods are tough but a few months of tight denim pays off in years of a perfect fit. Also self edge in LA has one of the greatest denim selections in the world and an extremely knowledgeable staff.

About seven for all mankinds, extremely low quality and usually just ugly. Bad fades and tacky distressing. It's made for upper middle class midlife crisis blue pill dads. Barneys almost went bankrupt a few years ago and an investor bailed them out. One of the first things he did as chairman was get rid of 7s at all barneys stores. It's worse that diesel or boss but at the end of the day all of those brands are machine made mass produced jeans. Again, if your not looking to pay more than 150 for jeans uniqlo and Levi's are your best bet.

Wreckingball, you can get Levi's for American prices on the American eBay. Just change the URL and browse US eBay and see if the seller ships internationally. A friend uses UK eBay to buy carhartt and barber cheap (it's like 5x more expensive here) you should be able to get Levi's for 50 USD.

[cool]

(06-20-2014 10:11 AM)sand Wrote:  

Cool, take your best fitting pants in the thigh and lay them out. Measure the width of the thigh from an inch below the crotch and +/- .5 iches to that depending on the fit. Then use sites like blue owl and look at the thigh measurement of different jeans. The naked and famous weird guy is pretty good for guys with bigger thighs. What Levi's style are you wearing?

I don't have a pair of well-fitting pants at the moment.

Yeah, I had bought a pair of Naked & Famous weird guy jeans at Barney's. They were size 32. After I started lifting regularly, I could barely get them on. They were very uncomfortable sitting down, so I gave them away.

Right now I have a pair of Levis 501. Size is 33, 38. They are still wearable but tight through the thigh. I wouldn't want to wear them all day. They just aren't comfortable. I much preferred the look of naked and famous to these although those weren't really comfortable to wear all day either.