[cardguy]

I think people interested in creative activities can be split into 3 groups.

1) Those who like creating new things.

2) Those who like learning new things.

3) Those who like mastering new things.

I would love to be a talented creator - but I am not. I don't have the creative abilities.

So instead I get most pleasure from learning new things.

The reason I mention this is that it creates strange situations. For instance - I am a world expert in magic (studied about 10,000 magic books and publications. And my favourite magic book is 3,000 pages long) - but get very little pleasure from actually performing magic.

As such - I could teach a newbie - and in a couple of weeks they would appear to be 'better at magic' than myself.

It is something I have always pondered. And the reason I raise it is because my Dad was talking to me about his early years in computer programming (30 years ago).

Entirely unprompted by me - he told me that he loved figuring out the problems and learning new things. But as soon as the road ahead became clear and it became 'easy' - he became bored and was looking for a new area to study.

As such - he could never imagine becoming a specialist in an area of computer programming - and instead was always looking for other areas to start again as a beginner in.

That rang a big bell in my head.

Since I am the same - which suggests it may be a genetic thing. As soon as something becomes 'easy' - I am looking for a new area where I can explore and learn new things.

Of course - not everyone is like this. Some people enjoy mastering an area - and spending the rest of their life honing their skills in this area to perfection. They can practice the same magic act - music set - comedy set - for the rest of their lives.

And the rarest of all - are those genius types who only get pleasure from creating. And who would rather create something new than even spend a little time exploring their most recent discoveries.

In magic - a chap called Stewart James was like that. In his lifetime he invented about 3,000 magic tricks.

And that reminds me of those authors (and other creators) who when asked about heir favourite work - will honestly say it is whichever one they are currently working on.

Woody Allen has a similar mindset since he actually refuses to watch any of his films - since he is always entirely focused on his latest project - and as such is constantly working on a new movie.

Anyway - I thought this topic might be worthy of further discussion. The comment from my father was a real eye-opener to me.

For one thing - I sense that people's instincts in whichever creative pursuit they are interested in will tend to fall strongly into one of the three categories mentioned above.

And on top of that. I should add that the people who become most famous in the popular arts - tend to be those who derive most pleasure from becoming a master as opposed to trying to endless extend and stretch the areas of their interest.

For instance - if I was a tennis player - I would get more pleasure out of being Mansour Bahrami than Roger Federer!

Similarly - in soccer - my favourite players were always the geniuses who tried to discover new ideas and techniques as opposed to those who were ruthlessly effective. Of course - from time to time - you get players like Christiano Ronaldo who are both.

[Parlay44]

I can definitely relate to your dad. Once you get to a certain level it gets boring. At that point you try to keep it interesting by seeing how much you can simplify the process. How elegant you can make it work. Programming is a subtle art at that level.

Coming from a music background as well I can relate to the creative aspect as well the mastery. First you learn your scales and chords. Then you master them. Then you get creative. Then you try to achieve creative mastery. I like to call that developing your own style. It's hard to explain unless you've been there. It's a personal journey.

[cardguy]

I think this is one of the reasons music so popular as an art form.

I imagine every guy on this board has dabbled with learning and making music in the past.

It reminds me of when I tell people I am a magician. Quite often they respond with 'Really? What instrument do you play?' lol

The thing about music is that first you have the challenge of learning the instrument.

And then you have the challenge of creating your own music.

And then you have the challenge of performing it will for others.

It is a seamless progression - all built around trying to share emotion with your audience.

But with other creative pursuits - you can become enamored with the history and curious sidetracks which would mean very little to a potential audience. As such - I can hang out with the most famous magicians in the world - and they will not have a clue about some of the areas of interest that I have.

With music - the total creative process doesn't mean much until the song, the performance and the music come together just right.

Whereas with magic - if you consider the goal to be fooling people - you can learn to do that within a couple of weeks by going to a magic shop and buying the latest magic tricks.

I guess this brings me back to the idea of 'Finite and Infinite games'. I still haven't read the book - but it is a fascinating way of analysing different areas of life:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finite_and_Infinite_Games

Music is an infinite game - so everybody in music is essentially competing on the same level.

But magic can be a finite game (ie - only interested in fooling people) or an infinite game - if you choose to explore the wider fields of the subject.

As such - the field is occupied with two different groups trying to achieve different goals. And the only ones who become famous are those from the first group. And because of that - the public at large never get to understand the wider context of magic and why it is such a fascinating field to explore.

[Big Country]

I always think of it as people being either A: a line person, B: a shape person, or C: a shapeless person

What are your thoughts on Ricky Jay cardguy? I watched a documentary on him and it is like you say, either finite or infinite.

[Christian McQueen]

"Woody Allen has a similar mindset since he actually refuses to watch any of his films - since he is always entirely focused on his latest project - and as such is constantly working on a new movie."

Myth. I recently watched a 2 part documentary on Woody Allen, where when interviewed he talked about which of the films he's done was his favorite (based on watching them).

He does have a work horse mentality though and writes/directs at least one film per year.

[cardguy]

I saw a documentary on Woody Allen where they were discussing his films and he refused to look at the screen showing scenes from them because he didn't want to look at his past work.

As such I thought that was 'a thing' with Woody Allen and his creative process.

Happy to corrected though...

[cardguy]

@mauds - Ricky Jay is a really interesting character.

Firstly - as a magician he is not particularly creative. All the techniques and effects he uses have been created by others.

Secondly - he is very skillful. It is very rare for a magician as skillful as him to become famous. Since the ones who usually become famous are showmen rather than genuinely skilled sleight-of-hand guys. Alas - he is getting old now - and his skills are dropping off (I noticed him doing a self working trick on a recent TV performance).

The age thing is important - since literally all magicians lose their skills when they enter old age. They may still be skilled - but it will be 80% what they were at their peak.

Thirdly - where Ricky Jay stands out is in his choice of material and presentational abilities. What I like about Ricky Jay is he is the first magician to try and show what is in the 'back room' of magic (so to speak). He is the only magician who provides a wider context for his work and helps communicate exactly why magic is such an interesting art form - especially for those who spend their lives studying it.

I am a big fan of his work - and feel he has pushed magic in a new direction with the public. The 'New Yorker' magazine did a profile on him 20 years ago which is still well worth reading. I used to re-read it when I was younger - amazed that such an accurate portrayal of the joys of sleight of hand magic had been communicated to the public.

http://www.newyorker.com/archive/1993/04...ntPage=all

But with all that said - Ricky Jay is still a professional. And as such - is still ultimately focused on mastering his performances. For a professional - they would rather come up with a single line or joke which will make their performance 10% better - than learn a thousand new tricks which they will ultimately never use. It is a very different mindset - and one that I applaud even if I don;t share it myself.

And as such Ricky Jay is in the third category I mentioned in my list. But the reason his work is so much fun is that he helps communicate the joys of guys like me (in the second category) who are aware of how much fascinating history and arcana there is to be learned when studying magic.

[Bill]

Reminds me of a quote of Herman Hesse (this time I may be right): " there is something magical about every new beginning"

I am also a guy who likes new beginnings. There was an article about bowerbirds who are very creative at building, dancing, singing, colours to attract the female bowerbirds.

I think it´s something evolutionary. Things mostly become boring when there is no additional extrinsic gratification mostly in pussy currencey.

[cardguy]

Some of my friends and family say I should write a book.

I am not saying I would be capable of it but it is not something that actually appeals to me.

I have zero interest in status - and being able to impress people by writing a good book (if I could do it) would not interest me.

As such - I would rather spend what little free time I have discovering new things and learning from others. As opposed to regurgitating some of my own ideas on to a page.

I know a post a lot on this forum. But nobody knows me (so there is no status involved) - and I find I learn just as much as I share. So - it is pretty different to the rewards (ie mostly prestige and a small amount of money) involved in writing a book.

If I had tons of free time - I might do both. But for now - I get much more satisfaction out of trying to learn more new things each day. Ironically - the longer I wait - the better any future book would probably be.

Anyway - just wanna' mention this as another example of how I value learning over anything else.

[Onto]

What I like about computer programming is solving puzzles, then making those solutions better and better and better. I also like creating new solutions from scratch instead of adding onto or modifying someone elses.

In software, "the bug" can be the most frustrating, but ironically also the most satisfying experience when you finally find it.