[assman]

(02-20-2014 03:22 PM)JJ Roberts Wrote:  

(02-20-2014 03:16 PM)assman Wrote:  

^^^ This is what happens to a disarmed citizenry.

Ha ha, you do realise that Caracas is the murder capital of the world, right?

You know what that means? Tons of guns. I could get hold of a gun in Caracas far easier than in the US.

You do realize Venezuela under Chavez banned civilian firearms ownership, right?

With Chavez's new gun-control law, only the Venezuelan army, police officials and certain groups such as security and private detective firms are allowed to buy firearms, and then only from state-owned weapons manufacturers and importers.

(02-20-2014 03:22 PM)JJ Roberts Wrote:  

PS I am from the UK. People don't have guns there. Neither do the police. Result? Police don't shoot citizens. Weird huh?

And if they did, what could you do about it? Or do you believe it is impossible for the government to turn its guns on its own people, despite it having happened many times in history?

[Tex Pro]

Not to derail the thread, but...

In the UK, the beat cops don't carry guns but the police have a heavily armed "backup" force that can be called in a moments notice if weapons are needed, so it not entirely accurate to say that the cops in the UK don't have guns.

In Caracas, most of the guns in the illegal market are in the hands of criminals and thugs. Sure, you could get a gun on the illegal market, but lawfully owning a gun in Venezuela is not easy.

[JJ Roberts]

(02-20-2014 03:26 PM)assman Wrote:  

You do realize Venezuela under Chavez banned civilian firearms ownership, right?

So all those drug dealers who are killing each other, they are just doing that by pointing their fingers at each other and shouting "bang! bang!" ?

(02-20-2014 03:26 PM)assman Wrote:  

And if they did, what could you do about it?

Riot.

The armed "backup" forces mentioned in the post above are not enough to deal with any riot. You would need the army for that.

The army in the UK is ultimately not under control of the politicians that run the country but is the property of the royal family so the army turning their guns on the people would only happen under orders from a monarch.

[assman]

(02-20-2014 03:38 PM)JJ Roberts Wrote:  

So all those drug dealers who are killing each other, they are just doing that by pointing their fingers at each other and shouting "bang! bang!" ?

Thank you for making my point. Gun control disarms ONLY the law abiding. The government and the criminals will always be armed.

(02-20-2014 03:38 PM)JJ Roberts Wrote:  

(02-20-2014 03:26 PM)assman Wrote:  

And if they did, what could you do about it?

Riot.

And get shot like these unarmed Venezuelans? Good luck.

I prefer to shoot back at those who would shoot at me.

(02-20-2014 03:38 PM)JJ Roberts Wrote:  

The army in the UK is ultimately not under control of the politicians that run the country but is the property of the royal family so the army turning their guns on the people would only happen under orders from a monarch.

And in your opinion, this could never happen?

[JJ Roberts]

(02-20-2014 03:41 PM)assman Wrote:  

Thank you for making my point. Gun control disarms ONLY the law abiding. The government and the criminals will always be armed.

Civilians can arm as a when necessary. We dont need to. At this risk of turning this into a gun control debate, which I have zero interest in and will only completely derail the thread, let's leave it there. I am not interested in convincing you of anything in that regard. The system in UK works.

If you want a gun control debate, start another thread.

(02-20-2014 03:26 PM)assman Wrote:  

And if they did, what
And in your opinion, this could never happen?

Our royal family is not like Cerci and Jofri in game of thrones. I know that most of the characters in game of thrones have English accents but its really not like that in the UK.

[JayMillz]

(02-20-2014 11:43 AM)JJ Roberts Wrote:  

Should I post up some of the stuff they have been putting on FB?

I've seen stories on Univision and its all over Facebook, Twitter, Youtube, etc. There is craziness in the Ukraine, Syria and many places these days.

[JJ Roberts]

The Game Changed in Venezuela Last Night – and the International Media Is Asleep At the Switch

http://caracaschronicles.com/2014/02/20/...e-changed/

[assman]

(02-20-2014 09:21 PM)JJ Roberts Wrote:  

The Game Changed in Venezuela Last Night – and the International Media Is Asleep At the Switch

http://caracaschronicles.com/2014/02/20/...e-changed/

Throughout last night, panicked people told their stories of state-sponsored paramilitaries on motorcycles roaming middle class neighborhoods, shooting at people and storming into apartment buildings, shooting at anyone who seemed like he might be protesting. People continue to be arrested merely for protesting, and a long established local Human Rights NGO makes an urgent plea for an investigation into widespread reports of torture of detainees. There are now dozens of serious human right abuses: National Guardsmen shooting tear gas canisters directly into residential buildings. We have videos of soldiers shooting civilians on the street.

I'll try to pretend I'm shocked. We've got a lot of members here from America, Canada and Western Europe, places where relative peace may have lulled some into a false sense of security, and more importantly, what is or is not possible. Pay attention to what is happening in Venezuela. Don't think for a second that your country is immune to this. Government never cedes power willingly, and for those in power, shedding hundreds, thousands or even millions of lives of their own citizenry to retain their power may not be as unfathomable to them as you might wish (history has demonstrated this many times, and will continue to do so).

[Tex Pro]

Venezuela picked a bad time to have a crisis. The international media is focused on the revolution in Ukraine. I suspect they will continue to ignore what is going on in Venezuela unless things get really, really bad.

[JJ Roberts]

Venezuela president threatens to throw CNN out of the country.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-26283971

I mean look at the image of the president protesting over the precious piece of glass that a protester might have broken.

Its in sharp contrast the softly softly approach his troops are taking huh?

[Tail Gunner]

Oh, I get it!

Riot game: "Come with me, if you want to live!"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5JJ3ogJ574

[Orson]

(02-20-2014 03:34 PM)The Texas Prophet Wrote:  

Not to derail the thread, but...

In Caracas, most of the guns in the illegal market are in the hands of criminals and thugs. Sure, you could get a gun on the illegal market, but lawfully owning a gun in Venezuela is not easy.

Actually, most of the murderous violence in Venezuela, having escalated over many years, is apparently under the unspoken aegis of the government itself, carried out by militias, paramilitary, or union thugs and gangs and others beholden to its rule.

Much like Ukraine, people don't trust the government or its agents and independent voices and have difficulty discerning between the two. The persecution and elimination of almost any free media over the past few years worsens the situation.

The biggest difference is that Ukraine is poor, but Venezuela is oil rich - and used to be the richest Latin american country - and still cannot manage to meet its own needs.

Venezuela is hyper-dysfunctional, largely because of Chavezism - a latter-day less ideological version of the personality cult known as Castroism.

[Orson]

[CANNOT DELETE THIS POST - SORRY.]

[hipster]

close to no news in brazil, and when they do they do not tell people the reason for the situation, they also don't show the brutality

[playa_with_a_passport]

(02-20-2014 10:15 PM)assman Wrote:  

(02-20-2014 09:21 PM)JJ Roberts Wrote:  

The Game Changed in Venezuela Last Night – and the International Media Is Asleep At the Switch

http://caracaschronicles.com/2014/02/20/...e-changed/

Throughout last night, panicked people told their stories of state-sponsored paramilitaries on motorcycles roaming middle class neighborhoods, shooting at people and storming into apartment buildings, shooting at anyone who seemed like he might be protesting. People continue to be arrested merely for protesting, and a long established local Human Rights NGO makes an urgent plea for an investigation into widespread reports of torture of detainees. There are now dozens of serious human right abuses: National Guardsmen shooting tear gas canisters directly into residential buildings. We have videos of soldiers shooting civilians on the street.

I'll try to pretend I'm shocked. We've got a lot of members here from America, Canada and Western Europe, places where relative peace may have lulled some into a false sense of security, and more importantly, what is or is not possible. Pay attention to what is happening in Venezuela. Don't think for a second that your country is immune to this. Government never cedes power willingly, and for those in power, shedding hundreds, thousands or even millions of lives of their own citizenry to retain their power may not be as unfathomable to them as you might wish (history has demonstrated this many times, and will continue to do so).

Shooting some broke marginalized goon because he's trying to play "Knock out Game" or steal your shitty Iphone is one thing but your chances of defeating a squad of armed trained soldier kicking in your door with the full faith and backing of whatever govt is in charge is slim to none. You might as well not have a gun.

My favorite show is Nat Geo "Preppers." To me its a comedy show because they actually believe they have a fighting chance against the Govt i.e. Law Enforcement/military. To me that shit is just too funny, its akin to how cute a barking chihuahua looks. You might be able to take out the 1st or maybe 2nd cop/soldier at the scene because they underestimated your gangsta, but you better believe once they bring in their toys, its going to be all over.


As for Venezuela, the reason why the protest aren't wide spread news is because its not. Even people who didn't like Chavez have said that Venezuelan elections are for the most part on the level. Therefore, the protester/rioters beef should be with their own low information voters and not with the current administration. Of course they have the right to peaceful protest and assembly but the moment that very thin line into rioting gets crossed, The government has every right to put them down by any means necessary, violence if needed to be. US cities have all sort of tricks in their little baggies that they use to keep demonstrations small and from spiraling out of control.

Case in point, Last week NYPD just settled some lawsuits for 18 Mil over their conduct during the Republican National convention in 2004. The police was spying and then subsequently preemptively arrested protest leaders on false charges and would often arrest protesters already on the scene for bullshit charges in order to dissuade more people from attending the demonstrations.

I don't put too much stock on reporting from Univision/Telemundo because those networks are headquarter and ran from Miami by the rabidly anti Castro "Cuban Mafia" Elite. That's like expecting objective reporting about Obama from Fox News, its just not gonna happen. You kind have to tote the party line if you want to be in the good graces of either network.

During the last NYC Mayoral election Univision coverage of Di Blasio was very negative because they were very salty that he went to Cuba for his honeymoon and that he's an unapologetic "stan" of Castro/Manuel Ortega. fortunately, for Di Blasio, the Hispanic electorate in NYC (Dominicans/Puerto Ricans/Mexicans/South Americans) give two shits about Castro and it went nowhere.

Also, I saw Marc Anthony on some shitty award show last week on Univision talking passionately about Venezuela, which I found ironic considering he's been quiet like a mouse with regards to how much of a shit hole Puerto Rico has become. If there's a place that needs a "regime change" bad, Puerto Rico is it. The funny thing is that I went to a Marc Antony concert in Brooklyn on 2/15/14 a mere 4 days earlier and he mentioned Venezuela a grand total of 0 Times.

[WanderingSoul]

(02-23-2014 12:28 PM)playa_with_a_passport Wrote:  

Shooting some broke marginalized goon because he's trying to play "Knock out Game" or steal your shitty Iphone is one thing but your chances of defeating a squad of armed trained soldier kicking in your door with the full faith and backing of whatever govt is in charge is slim to none. You might as well not have a gun.

My favorite show is Nat Geo "Preppers." To me its a comedy show because they actually believe they have a fighting chance against the Govt i.e. Law Enforcement/military. To me that shit is just too funny, its akin to how cute a barking chihuahua looks. You might be able to take out the 1st or maybe 2nd cop/soldier at the scene because they underestimated your gangsta, but you better believe once they bring in their toys, its going to be all over.

Sure, if you turn the argument into one man vs the entire government/police/military it sounds ridiculous.

When you change that argument to nearly 300 million people it suddenly doesn't sound so ridiculous.

[Tail Gunner]

(02-23-2014 12:37 PM)RioNomad Wrote:  

(02-23-2014 12:28 PM)playa_with_a_passport Wrote:  

Shooting some broke marginalized goon because he's trying to play "Knock out Game" or steal your shitty Iphone is one thing but your chances of defeating a squad of armed trained soldier kicking in your door with the full faith and backing of whatever govt is in charge is slim to none. You might as well not have a gun.

My favorite show is Nat Geo "Preppers." To me its a comedy show because they actually believe they have a fighting chance against the Govt i.e. Law Enforcement/military. To me that shit is just too funny, its akin to how cute a barking chihuahua looks. You might be able to take out the 1st or maybe 2nd cop/soldier at the scene because they underestimated your gangsta, but you better believe once they bring in their toys, its going to be all over.

Sure, if you turn the argument into one man vs the entire government/police/military it sounds ridiculous.

When you change that argument to nearly 300 million people it suddenly doesn't sound so ridiculous.

Exactly. What is comical is how people ignore the well-established lessons of history. Only two to ten percent of the population are ever involved in any revolution, whether peaceful or armed. A small cadre of devoted idealists are always responsible for social and political change.

You use small arms to capture the armories. Once you have the armories, you have the same weapons as the government. Then you capture the air bases to eliminate that advantage. In about half of all rebellions, the army does not even fight because the army consists of the people.

[assman]

(02-23-2014 12:28 PM)playa_with_a_passport Wrote:  

Shooting some broke marginalized goon because he's trying to play "Knock out Game" or steal your shitty Iphone is one thing but your chances of defeating a squad of armed trained soldier kicking in your door with the full faith and backing of whatever govt is in charge is slim to none. You might as well not have a gun.

My favorite show is Nat Geo "Preppers." To me its a comedy show because they actually believe they have a fighting chance against the Govt i.e. Law Enforcement/military. To me that shit is just too funny, its akin to how cute a barking chihuahua looks. You might be able to take out the 1st or maybe 2nd cop/soldier at the scene because they underestimated your gangsta, but you better believe once they bring in their toys, its going to be all over.

Apparently you've never heard of Afghanistan. You know, that dirt poor country that has defended itself against the two most powerful militaries the world has ever seen.

As compared to them, American patriots would have several major advantages:
1. more rifles
2. more tech in general to make all kinds of explosives. You think IED's in Iraq and Afghanistan are something, wait until you see what Americans can build
3. more and better trained long distance shooters
4. the politicians and generals directing the military are not beyond reach - better believe that will give them pause before ordering troops to fire on Americans. There will be no place in this country that will be safe for traitors and their families.
5. the troops - many will defect and bring their gear with them before turning on Americans

I could go on, but I get that many Americans are so cowed by America's military that they have already resigned themselves to being able to do nothing but hope and pray the federal government never becomes tyrannical. For those paying attention, history teaches us differently - a minority of determined men can make all the difference in the world.

[Big Nilla]

In the USA we could use all those fat slobs in electric carts as suicide bombers. Imagine 5+ million of them riding against the military (and hitting Walmart infrastructure). Also, instead of using sandbags we could stack them up as barriers... or use them as mobile anti-vehicle checkpoints by lining them up across roads. Venezuelans need more fat asses to effectively fight the government.

[Laurifer]

Quote:

why is it not in the news?

Its on Al-Jazeera every night. Don't watch the shit American news networks.

[Mekorig]

The USA/Europe TV networks seems totally focused in Ukraine`s situation. Brazil goverment is quiatly asking their networks not to pay too much attention to Venezuela`s situation. Here in Argentina the puclic TV and adicted TV networks put Maduro as a white dove fighting against evil neo-nazis, Only non-adicted TV networks (Channel 13 (Artear) shows real news about Venezuela. And in Venezuela, Maduro is doing all human posible to create a comunicational blockade. Things are happening in Tachira and Carabobo, bad things.

[Hencredible Casanova]

I was disappointed when Maduro won and replaced Chavez. I wanted his opponent Capriles to come in and make the much needed reforms to reverse Venezuela from being the region's laughing stock, but Maduro ran a campaign based on phony ad hominem attacks while cloaking his candidacy in the memory of Chavez.

Based on the nation's vast oil wealth, Caracas should be like the Dubai of the Americas but instead is simply an open-air ghetto.

It's crazy when you think of how different Chavez and Maduro really are. In spite of Chavez's socialist policies, he never had to resort to outright
repression to get his way because he had such a magnetic charisma. Even his haters will concede that.

Maduro on the other hand lacks any charisma, and leaders like that often resort to repression to get their way because they are ineffective in communicating their case to the people.

[JJ Roberts]

(02-23-2014 03:35 PM)Hencredible Casanova Wrote:  

I was disappointed when Maduro won

I don't for one second believe that Maduro won that election.

[playa_with_a_passport]

(02-23-2014 01:41 PM)assman Wrote:  

(02-23-2014 12:28 PM)playa_with_a_passport Wrote:  

...

Apparently you've never heard of Afghanistan. You know, that dirt poor country that has defended itself against the two most powerful militaries the world has ever seen.

Interesting..

Afghanistan is a bad example, both of their wars were technically fought and financed by fighters who weren't Afghan. 1st war, US provided the weapons and training and 2nd, the Pakistanis and Gulf states did. US would have pacified Afghanistan faster if Pakistan wasn't playing both sides of the fence. But I see your point, I think better examples are the Rhodesian Bush War, First Italo-Ethiopian War and Finish Winter war. But I could be wrong. I am no history expert

But I a digress....

Quote:

As compared to them, American patriots would have several major advantages:
1. more rifles
2. more tech in general to make all kinds of explosives. You think IED's in Iraq and Afghanistan are something, wait until you see what Americans can build
3. more and better trained long distance shooters
4. the politicians and generals directing the military are not beyond reach - better believe that will give them pause before ordering troops to fire on Americans. There will be no place in this country that will be safe for traitors and their families.
5. the troops - many will defect and bring their gear with them before turning on Americans

I could go on, but I get that many Americans are so cowed by America's military that they have already resigned themselves to being able to do nothing but hope and pray the federal government never becomes tyrannical. For those paying attention, history teaches us differently - a minority of determined men can make all the difference in the world.

All of the above bravado sounds nice and dandy on the Internet. I am glad that you have more faith in your fellow Americans than I do. IMHO, there could be Chinese tanks patrolling Times Square tomorrow, the average American would not care provided the checks kept getting direct deposited into their Chase "Check free" checking account.

On this forum we can't even agree what "Red Pill" even means, do you think people are even going to know what "tyrannical Federal government" even looks like? In some circles, some say we passed that point decades ago. NSA probably has like 50k employees and only 1 of them had the balls to expose the blatant violation of the constitution. Everybody else didn't want to make any waves, never forget that for most people trinkets/money trumps everything:

Quote:

“It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it."

--Upton Sinclair

Shiiiiit... Obama's ordered the killing of an American citizen and his 16 year old American son on super duper intelligence and the corporate owned press(Fox News included) didn't even flinch. No Grand jury,no protest, no hearing,no kangaroo trial, no nothing.... You probably don't even know his name.

What makes you think these "patriots" with rifle skills aren't going to be labeled as a "domestic" terrorist and have a FBI send a hit squad their way like they did to the Black Panthers, Black Liberation Army, Machateros,KKK, Weather underground, etc.

What's to stop the government from blowing up a kennel full of cute puppies and kittens and then saying your group did it? The supply of sympathizer pussy will dry up faster than the Sahara. The US has a lot of experience in propaganda and extreme Violence against groups who jeopardized its cash flow, freedom be dammed. Just ask anybody in Latin America older than 40.

But we are getting off topic and long winded, my point still stands, if all you have is a gun, you and you buddies have absolutely have zero shot against the federal government regardless to how legitimate your grievances are.

However, if you have a fat bankroll and can hire lobbyist, the sky is literally the limit.

[LeBeau]

...