[Nascimento]

Many programs focus around strength training, such as starting strength and strong lifts, among many others.

I like the idea of having to build a 'base' of strength before you focus on other things, such as training for hypertrophy rather than strength itself.

I've been doing what's more similar to strength training for a little while now, after first starting with programs such as SS. I like that I developed I decent base of strength, and I am happy with my lifts when considering my body weight.

Is there a point of diminishing returns for strength training?

Sure, I can keep adding weight to my lifts, at this point more slowly, but I can still reach that #300 squat I've been so close to and try to eventually deadlift #400, which might take me another year or so if I really focused on it.

What is the point? If one does not have any intention of powerlifting that is.

My training in a sentence is focused around giving me a powerful body. A decent strength base, more focused around functional strength overall, aesthetic purposes, and overall body health.

I'm starting to think I might deload a bit on the heavy weights, and do singles only occasionally, and focus more on some other training factors rather than just low rep, heavy weight. Maybe more towards slower repetitions, less rest, a couple more sets, some 1 1/3 reps and such.

Also another concern I have towards the heavy weights - is this really sustainable long term? Sure you could argue that it's about building strong stabilizers overtime that would adapt your body, but squatting and deadlifting very heavy for years can take a toll on your body for the worst eventually, right? I'm coming to assumptions as of course I don't have many years experience with strength training.

I know there's many guys on here that do strength training and have insanely high lifts after spending years on the skill.

What are your experiences with this?

[Albertron]

The question you should be asking yourself is this:

Why are you lifting?

This will answer your question as to what the point is.

You mentioned that your training is focused on the goal of a functionally powerful, healthy, and aesthetically-pleasing body. You want the total package, but your ideal body archetype is subjective, like everyone else's.

Powerful, to me, is having a high power-weight ratio, i.e. powerlifting. Some may see power in terms of a Strongman perspective. Others may feel that explosive power (i.e. Olympic lifting) is their metric for powerful. The same goes with aesthetically-pleasing: some like Ronnie Coleman's body. Some like Brad Pitt's body from Fight Club.

Keep in mind that strength and size are not directly correlated, and this is evidenced in true powerlifters, who have insane power-weight ratios but are not even the closest to being the biggest people in the fitness industry.

So to tackle your first question about diminishing returns for strength training, it comes down to what 'returns' you are looking for.

Impressing hotter chicks? Bigger body? More power? Less injury when lifting heavier than the average human?

It is yes in some aspects and no in others. Find out truly why you lift, and I think the answer about diminishing returns will come to you.

Regarding lifting heavy weights long-term: a lot of people blame heavy compound lifting with injury down the road. I only have one thing to say about this:

Don't blame the exercise. Blame the person performing the exercise.

The reason why I lift is to develop my functional strength in a powerlifting-type progression. Up here in the oil sands, my body is my tool to make money. If I am sick or injured, I do not make money. No sick days like back in the white collar days. My job requires a lot of lifting, squatting and carrying shit, on top of having decent cardio (I'm usually running). Therefore, I need my joints to be in tip-top shape when performing these varying tasks, and that requires my muscles, and my central nervous system, to be strong as well.

On top of powerlifting being a hobby of mine, it helps to ensure that I am always lifting with correct form, which translates to a more efficient work-day and less stress on my joints.

That is my motivation to hit the gym: if I don't, there is a higher chance for me to get injured in the field, which means a higher chance for me to miss out on some lovely oil money.

[Seth_Rose]

Pretty sure McQueen started a thread just like this. I'll try and find the link.

Edit: Yep, Is There A Point Of Diminishing Returns On Weightlifting And Attracting Girls?

http://www.rooshvforum.network/thread-32580.html

Didn't read the whole thread, but there's five pages worth of stuff that is relevant to your question.

Edit (2): Just saw you posted in that thread haha. I guess to differentiate it from a game perspective, yes there is definitely a point of diminishing returns. For example, the time it takes to get your bench from 200 --->250 vs. 250---> 300 is pretty significant.

Unless you want to be a competitive power lifter like Albertron than, as the years go by lower the weight and push up the reps. I'm a young guy now, but I'd like to still be able to function well 20 years from now. With that said, deadlifting 500 lbs now may seem cool, but it will come back to bite down the road.

[rudebwoy]

Albertron - let's see how your joints are when you hit your mid 40's.

[worldwidetraveler]

(02-06-2014 02:34 PM)rudebwoy Wrote:  

Albertron - let's see how your joints are when you hit your mid 40's.

ha! Amen brother. My knees thank God for collagen supplements.

[Nascimento]

(02-06-2014 02:30 PM)Seth_Rose Wrote:  

Pretty sure McQueen started a thread just like this. I'll try and find the link.

Edit: Yep, Is There A Point Of Diminishing Returns On Weightlifting And Attracting Girls?

http://www.rooshvforum.network/thread-32580.html

Didn't read the whole thread, but there's five pages worth of stuff that is relevant to your question.

Edit (2): Just saw you posted in that thread haha. I guess to differentiate it from a game perspective, yes there is definitely a point of diminishing returns. For example, the time it takes to get your bench from 200 --->250 vs. 250---> 300 is pretty significant.

Unless you want to be a competitive power lifter like Albertron than, as the years go by lower the weight and push up the reps. I'm a young guy now, but I'd like to still be able to function well 20 years from now. With that said, deadlifting 500 lbs now may seem cool, but it will come back to bite down the road.

Yeah I'm familiar with the thread, it's just that the focus of that one is more about muscle mass and overall body composition. That's a different topic, I'm asking more specifically about strength training, training for lifting heavier weights as opposed to a focus on muscularity.

It's good to see different opinions though.

My point is exactly as you mention at the end of your post. I feel I've reached a strong point in my lift numbers if you may, and see no need to raise that up further if I'm not going to be powerlifting or bragging about weight numbers to other people. I feel once you get the basic compound lifts down, and get each of them to a respectable number (say 1x body weight for bench, 1.5 for squat) and develop that functional strength, there is little advantage to going further.

That stress on your body for years is probably not too good as well.

@Albertron

I understand your point, and I definitely agree with lifting weights to develop functional strength. But is there really a point to constantly pushing yourself to the extreme if you're not ever going to be competing? I would recommend anyone that starts weight training to develop some strength with the big compound lifts, to a respectable level as well, but once you get that core movement down and build the functional strength you need, what incentive is there to keep going further?

I'm not suggesting for instance once you hit say 250 pound squat you should stop squatting. But perhaps change up the way you squat. Instead of always squatting close to that max you could train with less weight, but higher reps, more sets, less rest, more squat variations, slow reps, isometric holds, etc.

[Peregrine]

Quote:

I'm not suggesting for instance once you hit say 250 pound squat you should stop squatting. But perhaps change up the way you squat. Instead of always squatting close to that max you could train with less weight, but higher reps, more sets, less rest, more squat variations, slow reps, isometric holds, etc.

Agree. Once I get myself back to respectable numbers, I'll switch focus to plyometrics.

[Veloce]

(02-06-2014 09:56 AM)Nascimento Wrote:  

Many programs focus around strength training, such as starting strength and strong lifts, among many others.

I like the idea of having to build a 'base' of strength before you focus on other things, such as training for hypertrophy rather than strength itself.

I've been doing what's more similar to strength training for a little while now, after first starting with programs such as SS. I like that I developed I decent base of strength, and I am happy with my lifts when considering my body weight.

Is there a point of diminishing returns for strength training?

Sure, I can keep adding weight to my lifts, at this point more slowly, but I can still reach that #300 squat I've been so close to and try to eventually deadlift #400, which might take me another year or so if I really focused on it.

What is the point? If one does not have any intention of powerlifting that is.

My training in a sentence is focused around giving me a powerful body. A decent strength base, more focused around functional strength overall, aesthetic purposes, and overall body health.

I'm starting to think I might deload a bit on the heavy weights, and do singles only occasionally, and focus more on some other training factors rather than just low rep, heavy weight. Maybe more towards slower repetitions, less rest, a couple more sets, some 1 1/3 reps and such.

Also another concern I have towards the heavy weights - is this really sustainable long term? Sure you could argue that it's about building strong stabilizers overtime that would adapt your body, but squatting and deadlifting very heavy for years can take a toll on your body for the worst eventually, right? I'm coming to assumptions as of course I don't have many years experience with strength training.

I know there's many guys on here that do strength training and have insanely high lifts after spending years on the skill.

What are your experiences with this?

I'm going to wax philosophical here so bear with me.

Weight lifting in and of itself might not mean much to you except developing an aesthetic physique. Nothing wrong with that and I'm right there with you.

But there's the ego. That nasty motherfucker that makes us do stupid shit. Why did Felix Baumgartner feel the need to set the record of highest jump ever? Why do guys race formula cars? Why do guys get off on having a 9.5 on their arm? Why do men get together every 4 years and see how far they can ski jump off a ramp?

It's what guys do. Find some thing, some activity, that goes beyond practicality, that is a mere test of what we're made of.

If you're not driven to deadlift 405, great. You're probably smart. But when I see guys deadlift 405, I get fucking pissed that I can't do that. I am going to deadlift 405 at some point before I die, mark my words. But that's just me, my own goal, and everyone has their own. If you don't feel driven to push your own boundaries in lifting, then by all means don't do it. Don't do it because Medhi or Mark Rippetoe or some dudes on a forum tell you you should be able to lift that much. You've got to want to push beyond your own limits, beyond what you think is "logical".

[Albertron]

(02-06-2014 03:26 PM)Nascimento Wrote:  

I understand your point, and I definitely agree with lifting weights to develop functional strength. But is there really a point to constantly pushing yourself to the extreme if you're not ever going to be competing? I would recommend anyone that starts weight training to develop some strength with the big compound lifts, to a respectable level as well, but once you get that core movement down and build the functional strength you need, what incentive is there to keep going further?

I'm not suggesting for instance once you hit say 250 pound squat you should stop squatting. But perhaps change up the way you squat. Instead of always squatting close to that max you could train with less weight, but higher reps, more sets, less rest, more squat variations, slow reps, isometric holds, etc.

At the end of the day, people hit the gym, or enter into a fitness lifestyle, for different reasons. Based on what you said, it seems you want to become a "strong enough" version of yourself. A sprinkle of strength here, a pinch of aesthetics there, and a dash of size as well.

The incentive of going further into heavier weights rests upon what your goals are. Do you want to be proficient in moving heavy weight (i.e. doing 10 reps of squats at a specific weight)? Do you want to be able to lift as heavy as possible?

It sounds like you want to build a respectable power-weight ratio, along with a nice physique. If this is correct, then I would say work towards that power goal. Once you've achieved it, then you can do as you mentioned earlier: varying the type of stress under load. Don't worry about lifting super heavy if that's not what you want to do. But don't be hitting the gym without some goals in mind, otherwise your training will be fruitless.

[DVY]

I want to look good naked, have some good base of strength (be able to carry/throw around a 110lb girl), and have minimal injuries.

I started w/SS, but stepped away from it as I had constant aches- knees, shoulder, back, elbows, wrists. My joints were not able to support the weight.

Recently, I've gone against the "raw lifter" grain. I added in straps, then knee wraps, and will shortly add in a lifting belt. A
major injury isn't worth the risk (however minimal).

I feel better than ever.

The key is to keep up the consistency in the gym/exercise and constantly push yourself in different areas.

PS- those #s are pretty solid. Def in the top 1% of gym-goers. Often, if you have to ask yourself IF ITS WORTH IT, its NOT. Just my 2c.

[RexImperator]

I thought strength training was supposed to strengthen your joints and ligaments, etc, if you use correct form? (I.E. squat to proper depth.) I'm relatively new to this stuff (only been lifting since August) so I'm still learning. Right now my goal is to get to that 405 DL.

You know I think a lot depends on your frame, so it's not a great idea to compare yourself to other guys too much. I think shorter guys find it relatively easier to squat heavy compared to taller guys.

[SpecialEd]

Yes, there is a point. Elite power lifters are walking injuries. That's what happens when you push the human body to its limits.

You need to decide what's most important to you. I train for hypertrophy/aesthetics so high reps, high volume, high frequency. I might stick with the same weight for 2 weeks before increasing. I am gradually getting stronger but its by no means my main priority.

From a game perspective, I never saw the appeal in serious power lifting. I mean, how strong do you need to be to throw around a woman(non-American lol)? If you can rep 225 on the bench, squat 300, dead 350, none of which are huge numbers, that's good enough imo. Women won't know and won't care. The power lifter types tend to pat each other on the back a lot gloating about their 3 lift total but those guys aren't getting laid. They use their strength to justify being fat and eating like shit. It's comical...

[dog24]

I wasnt gonna post in here since my lifts are shitty right now after i got injured, i will say though that i want to compete in powerlifting next year, and i will also be training for olympic weightlifting in a couple of months.

Specialed every elite athlete is a walking injury, ever seen the documentary the price of gold? I wont even comment on the rest of your post.

Nascimento the point of diminishing returns beggins after i would say 500 squat, 600 deadlift. Your lifts are really low right now if you want to compare them to guys that have done say 5 or 6 cycles of 5/3/1 or even a couple mesocycles of smolov. Ben rice for example has said that his squat was stuck at mid 600s for two years.

After certain point if you want to keep adding pounds to your total youre gonna have to ditch accesory work completely and only focus on the three lifts, thats why programs like sheiko dont even have back exercises programmed.

From what i have seen in weightlifting athletes in person and a couple of guys on youtube, you cant continuously do program after program, if youre concerned about staying injury free, it might be good to lay off the weights a couple of months a year, and before starting a new phase of strength training do something like a pre-season to make sure your joints can take all that load. And gradually increase the weight.
Also when it comes to competing, close to competition the weight gets heavier, but immediately after competition they taper off so its not like youre going 100% all the time.

Powerlifters are athletes in my opinion, just like weightlifters, they are doing a sport, like basketball players, or baseball players. Bodybuilders or more specifically recreational lifters only do it to look good and i dont think those guys should criticize other people for the choices they make and the sacrifices theyre willing to do.

Dave tate has said that when he was in his 20s older powerlifters told him that he should stop doing stupid shit if he didnt want to be crippled at 40, of course since he was young he didnt listen and thats why hes fucked up now, its not necessarily from doing powerlifting but from not being patient and doing smart programming. I think that if youre serious about this, this forum might not give you the information you need.

[Doctor]

I've achieved some pretty solid numbers and have competed for a number of years. I have one minor nagging injury that I could get rid of if I did my misc work consistently. My knees feel fine. My shoulders feel fine. My back feels fine. I don't plan on competing until I'm 50, but I know plenty of people in their 30s and 40s who compete and are healthy. I also know plenty that aren't, but you can tell who has taken precautions to stay healthy and who hasn't.

The difference between me and Joe Bench Press with the shoulder problems at your local gym? My programming is impeccably good, I work with the best. My nutrition is very solid, I've worked with people who have worked with the best. My technique is very solid, I've been analyzing and working on it weekly for years. I'm not a retard in the gym, I don't do things just to do things or to impress someone. It is uncommon for me to run into someone who has stronger abs than me, this is significant in preventing injury. I've stayed consistent with everything I've been doing for years. I've worked progressively, I didn't train like a 500lbs bencher when I was benching 200lbs and I didn't train like a 200lbs bencher when I benched 400lbs.

There's no such thing as an unsafe exercise, only an unsafe way of doing it.

Everyone says lower weight more reps. That's fine in principle and if you adjust the volume correctly, but what happens when you start to fatigue? Your form breaks down. If your form breaks down and you don't have years of muscle memory to fall back on for that particular lift, guess where your technique is going to go? If you see someone attempting a heavy weight, that they are capable of attempting, their technique will most likely be as good as they can make it. If you see someone attempting a 10RM, their form will most likely be garbage on 8-10. That is an easy way to get both chronic and acute injuries.

Might as well get strong while you are young, it is the easiest time in your life to do it. I've never met anyone that complained they were too strong, but I've met a ton of people who wished they were bigger and/or stronger. Nobody every gets more respect for being average.

[SpecialEd]

(02-06-2014 07:16 PM)dog24 Wrote:  

Specialed every elite athlete is a walking injury, ever seen the documentary the price of gold? I wont even comment on the rest of your post.

Which is why I said, "this is what happens when you push the human body to its limits".

Quote:

Bodybuilders or more specifically recreational lifters only do it to look good and i dont think those guys should criticize other people for the choices they make and the sacrifices theyre willing to do.

Bodybuilding is every bit as worthy a pursuit as power lifting. This is a game site and so I would argue bodybuilding-style training is more relevant to the average guy around here.

I criticized powerlifters for being fat and justifying their lack of all-around fitness because they can squat a ton. Bite me. Jim Wendler, a former elite level powerlifter, has said exactly the same things.

[Bushido]

(02-06-2014 08:48 PM)SpecialEd Wrote:  

Quote:

Bodybuilders or more specifically recreational lifters only do it to look good and i dont think those guys should criticize other people for the choices they make and the sacrifices theyre willing to do.

Bodybuilding is every bit as worthy a pursuit as power lifting. This is a game site and so I would argue bodybuilding-style training is more relevant to the average guy around here.

I criticized powerlifters for being fat and justifying their lack of all-around fitness because they can squat a ton. Bite me. Jim Wendler, a former elite level powerlifter, has said exactly the same things.

Indeed. But if you want "muscularity" then you need to be strong in the basic compound lifts.

The best bodybuilders all post high totals in The Big Three.

Arnold Schwarzenegger:
Clean and press – 264 lb
Snatch – 243 lb
Clean & jerk – 298 lb
Squat – 545 lb
Bench press – 500 lb
Deadlift – 710 lb

Ronnie Coleman:
Bench 495 lb (for reps)
Squat 800 lb (for reps)
Deadlift 805 lb (for reps)

[TripleG]

SpecialEd could not have said it any better. If you're a wannabe PUA and want to attract women would you rather have a powerlifter look or a bodybuilder look? Unless one needs it for work as Albertron mentioned I see no reason behind guys who keep training (and eating heavy) like power-lifters and always trying to increase their max weight. For most of us just doing basic power-lifting mixed in with bodybuilding and cardio should be all one needs to have functional strength, and looking good for the ladies as an added bonus. By the way, here's an "unphotoshopped" image of two top guys in their field, which look would you rather have? (if you ask me only bodybuilding matters!)
Zydrunas Zavickas (possibly the strongest man who has ever lived, worldclass strongman and powerlifer)

vs
Dorian Yates (considered one of the best bodybuilders of all time)

[Doctor]

If that is Dorian Yates's wife, Zavickas has done much, much better for himself.

[scorpion]

Yes, there is a point of diminishing returns. There is no practical reason to go to the extreme in any sort of athletic endeavor. Running 26 miles and bench pressing 500 lbs. are both equally pointless, and training to do either is inevitably going to result in an accumulation of minor injuries, and possibly result in major injury at some point.

There is no practical strength difference between a guy who can bench 250 and a guy who can bench 500. It's not like the 500 lb. bench guy is actually twice as strong. He's not twice as dangerous in a fight. He can't punch twice as hard. He just lifts twice as much in the bench press. Nobody besides himself and his gym buddies care.

Just listen to your body. Train hard but don't overdo it. Too many guys injure themselves by trying to push heavy weight. And for what? What the hell is the point? There is no point. It's all ego.

[Gopher]

(02-06-2014 09:33 PM)Doctor Wrote:  

If that is Dorian Yates's wife, Zavickas has done much, much better for himself.

Agreed

[Gopher]

What about a guy like Dmitry Klokov. Dude is an olympic level weightlifter and I'd actually say that his aesthetics are more appealing to women than the elite level bodybuilder that looks more like a cartoon character than a human. I was just at the gym tonight and a typical steroid using bodybuilder (dude is legitimately impressive) and the girl he was with looked like she was 40 and about a 5.5

Body building is extremely overrated as a physique and is only perpetuated because of the media that covers it and the companies that want to sell you shit so you too can look like shit.


Also has a hot wife.

[Nascimento]

Maybe it's just me not wanting to 100% dedicate to a certain fitness/exercise related skill.

I played competitive soccer for a few years, won some prestigious trophies, lost some finals, had some individual achievements and such, now I don't feel I have to play competitive anymore. I've known for a few years there is no chance I'd ever make it to pro, so nowadays I don't even strive to reach that elite level in my game anymore. I'll still play with similar level players, but it's more recreational than competitive.

I got into long distance running for a bit years ago. Nothing crazy, especially not marathon territory. I had always wanted to be able to run '10k' because for me that was an achievement and I had found it very difficult. I ran 10k eventually, with my longest run completed being 12k. Since then, I've never run that distance again and when I do run it's in the lengths of 4-5k.

In high school, there was this 'beep test' which you may or may not be familiar with. A strong test of cardio endurance, as the intensity increases overtime. My first times doing it I did pathetic, less than the average of the high school class. By the time I was in my senior year, I scored the among the couple highest in the grade which was level 12, which is 'elite' standards by high school kids who are very familiar with the test. Ever since I couldn't care less about the test anymore and the couple times since that one time I did it I've levelled off and stopped at level 10 and 11.

I see a similar trend for me coming up with weight training. I've done strength for a while, enough to build a decent base and a bit of muscle to show for, now I will probably be seeing different results from my training. Over the past couple months my training has changed to less heavier sets and more moderate sets with less rest in between. My weights have been going up to the point some lifts are actually higher than they were when I was doing a more strength based workout.

I just feel I don't need to reach that elite level sometimes. I set a milestone, and once I achieve it I just maintain my results. All the power to those who are constantly striving to reach that highest level. Maybe for me, I realize that reaching that level requires 100% dedication and effort, and it's not that I'm unable to do it, it's that I'd rather focus my energy on other endeavours I've been meaning to get to.

[SpecialEd]

(02-07-2014 03:17 AM)Gopher Wrote:  

What about a guy like Dmitry Klokov. Dude is an olympic level weightlifter and I'd actually say that his aesthetics are more appealing to women than the elite level bodybuilder that looks more like a cartoon character than a human. I was just at the gym tonight and a typical steroid using bodybuilder (dude is legitimately impressive) and the girl he was with looked like she was 40 and about a 5.5

Body building is extremely overrated as a physique and is only perpetuated because of the media that covers it and the companies that want to sell you shit so you too can look like shit.


Also has a hot wife.

1.) Klokov is a genetic phenomenon, I believe he is natural. His father was a weightlifting champ. His look is more desirable than a top level bodybuilder because he is smaller(and not juiced to the gills). At 6'0 230, he looks a wide receiver.

2.) Olympic lifting is very different from powerlifting. They do different lifts, arguably more functional ones. There is a greater focus on being explosive. What's more, olympic lifters train 6 days a week, sometimes twice a day with absurd volume. I admire them but it's not the most efficient way to build an aesthetic physique.

[Doctor]

Really? Klokov? Natural? Seriously?
He must be gluten free and using creatine.

For the record, I love Olympic lifting. But moving a weight from the floor to overhead in 1 motion is about as un-functional as it gets.

[dog24]

(02-07-2014 11:25 AM)SpecialEd Wrote:  

1.) Klokov is a genetic phenomenon, I believe he is natural.

I believe this falls under the category of dont give advice about something you know nothing about.

(01-16-2014 01:53 PM)WestCoast Wrote:  

I think there is a massive downside to free speech. The downside is everyone thinks they have a right to an opinion and they don't.

This makes good information incredibly hard to find because you have prolific writers who can make a point very well but then you realize they actually have zero experience in the subject.

Every bad piece of advice starts out like this:

"Well I don't have real life experience in X but in my opinion ...."

That is the fastest way to ruin your life. Take advice from people who have actually done nothing but have said something very well. b-line to failure.

If you don't actually do X it doesn't make you an idiot to say you don't actually do X. What makes one an idiot is by voicing his "expertise" based on zero experience. That's when you know the guy is an idiot.