[deathtofatties]

(12-11-2013 12:17 PM)RedPillMind Wrote:  

deathtofatties:

The first ncbi link in your OP is broken.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2374537/

[RedPillMind]

(12-11-2013 12:21 PM)deathtofatties Wrote:  

(12-11-2013 12:17 PM)RedPillMind Wrote:  

deathtofatties:

The first ncbi link in your OP is broken.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2374537/

Cheers for the link dude, i think i just pasted it wrong first time around.

Yeah, that study is flawed as i expected. Couple of things:

Firstly, they claim a 16% higher T level for the vegans (6% for the vegetarians) over carnivores. When BMI is controlled for however this drops quite a bit.
From another analysis i found of the study: "Prior to adjustment for BMI, SHBG levels in vegans were 16% higher than in meat-eaters (P < 0.0001), and 12% higher than in vegetarians (P = 0.0008); adjustment for BMI reduced these differences to 6% (P = 0.02) and 10% (P = 0.004), respectively. Vegans had 13% higher T concentration than meat-eaters (P = 0.0001) and 8% higher than vegetarians (P = 0.001); adjustment for BMI reduced these differences to 6% (P = 0.07) and 7% (P = 0.02".

So getting closer to statistically insignificant already.

The other major problem is that the vegans have much higher sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG). The more you have of that, the less bioavailable your testosterone is. Cherry picking the 16% figure is misleading at best.

See this paper: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2400756

In this one the vegans had 3% less free T compared to the omnivores.

You have to be very careful with analyzing scientic studies. Even ones that are peer reviewed. The sad fact is that there is almost always an agenda trying to be pushed onto the public and that agenda is usually pro grain, pro dairy, pro sugar, pro big pharma and anti-meat. Many of these big studies are funded by these industries in the first place. Ain't no money in grass feeding cows. At least not compared to the piles of cash you can make from selling nutritionally bankrupt processed food made of grain, soy and sugar to people. ie. the shit many ignorant vegans eat as a substitute for meat unfortunately.

[RedPillMind]

Just to add to my last post, here is a good breakdown on SHBG and free T.

http://www.paleodoc.com/2013/07/testoste...-shbg.html

There is a huge difference between bioavailable Free Testosterone and Total Testosterone.

Robb Wolf also had an excellent breakdown of the subject a few years ago:

http://robbwolf.com/2011/11/02/paleo-and-testosterone/

The comments on that one are well worth reading too.

Sorry for posting articles from primarily paleo related sites. I'm just familiar with a lot of those sites so that's where i got my links from. There's plenty to be found on more neutral sites too if you care to search for them.

[soup]

Read up and sounds like Choline is only in the yolk of eggs. That link to the video that correlates it with prostate cancer- well here's some info I found on WebMD that says it's good for you:

"Choline is similar to the B vitamins. It can be made in the liver. It is also found in foods such as liver, muscle meats, fish, nuts, beans, peas, spinach, wheat germ, and eggs.

Choline is used for liver disease, including chronic hepatitis and cirrhosis. It is also used for depression, memory loss, Alzheimer's disease and dementia, Huntington's chorea, Tourette's disease, a brain disorder called cerebellar ataxia, certain types of seizures, and a mental condition called schizophrenia.

Athletes use it for bodybuilding and delaying fatigue in endurance sports.

Choline is taken by pregnant women to prevent neural tube defects in their babies and it is used as a supplement in infant formulas.

Other uses include preventing cancer, lowering cholesterol, and controlling asthma.

How does it work?
Choline is similar to a B vitamin. It is used in many chemical reactions in the body. Choline seems to be an important in the nervous system. In asthma, choline might help decrease swelling and inflammation."

[soup]

Guys, I'm ovo-lactic vegetarian because I get grossed out by meat. Sometimes I do get cravings for it. I do wear leather.

Vegans please remember: the animals would eat you if they could.

Also, would you eat meat synthesized in a lab?

Does eating pussy juice/cream count as vegetarian/vegan? It is from another animal?

What about biting your finger nails and eating them, or chewing on dried skin form your own lips?

[soup]

(12-11-2013 01:38 AM)deathtofatties Wrote:  

(12-11-2013 01:14 AM)bacon Wrote:  

curious how do you get some essential vitamins and minerals that are only found in meat,eggs and dairy. Specifically ...
Choline an essential mineral really only found in egg yolk
Direct vitamin A found in eggs and meats which is different than beta carotine
b12 which is only found in animal sources
zinc from food since its usually in high quantities in seafood and meat.

Don't eat any eggs.

One great source for Vitamin A Sweet Potatoes, and another, well, most dark leafy greens. Carrots are great too.


The B12 from meat isn't really absorbed that well into the body. So even meat eaters are technically B12 deficient too, just not as severely deficient as vegans. Our ape ancestors got their B12 from eating bugs, and food/water with fecal contamination.

The best way to get B12 for both vegans and meat eats is from a pill.

With Zinc, you can get plenty of zinc from Cocoa, Spinach, Nuts, Beans...

Also, what are these guys eating that might be interacting with the Choline? Maybe it's that interaction that causes cancer. Maybe Choline is found wear muscles anything that grows in the body happen. Can we really make the jump to say that Choline is the cause of cancer?

Is it naive to just single out one element of a diet without taking into consideration the other parts?

I NEED TO KNOW ASAP BECAUSE I'M ABOUT TO EAT BREAKFAST.

[AnonymousBosch]

Quote:

Mike, casein is made from animals?

Soup, I'm lacto-ovo: seriously allergic to egg, lactose and lacutose, (milk sugars and protein). It's a genetic abnormality usually found in Scandinavian regions. A doctor recently told me it proves 'I have Viking Blood'. My grandmother was Scottish, so it's likely. This means I had to learn what to look out for.

Casein is a phosphoprotein taken from cow's milk. You'll also want to avoid anything labelled as Caseinate or Calcium Caseinate. Same source. Whey is actually produced as a by-product of collecting Caseinate, or, more commonly, when making Cheese.

Those with moral components to their veganism will also want to avoid anything containing gelatin (hydrolysed collagen sourced from animal skin and bones).

Quote:

Also, what are these guys eating that might be interacting with the Choline? Maybe it's that interaction that causes cancer. Maybe Choline is found wear muscles anything that grows in the body happen. Can we really make the jump to say that Choline is the cause of cancer?

Is it naive to just single out one element of a diet without taking into consideration the other parts?

You're spot on, Soup. Good scientific research always assumes correlation does not equal causation.

Unfortunately, results are then filtered through the media, who always imply causation from the results. I was trained to write for journals, so I always seek out the original articles to clarify what was really being stated before the media distortion.

For example, I've read up enough on Soy in relation to bodybuilding to disbelieve the Lower T myth, and there's enough bodybuilding sites that seem to agree with me. To my eyes, it's the assumption of media junk science based upon flawed methodology in one study focused on an extreme statistical outlier that wasn't replicated in further studies.

I've used soy milk and protein for years. It hasn't impacted my bodybuilding; I haven't grown tits and I am as sexually-virile as ever. I can bang multiple times a day, (no bragging, it just is). Am I an extreme outlier? Some variation in how it absorbed has been found in reserach, so it's possible. But I doubt it's a major likelihood, since it's not like a diet high in soy for over 5,000 years shrivelled up the nuts of chinese men enough to stop them needing to control their population.

Hell, even Schwarzenegger thinks it's a good protein source. From his site:

Quote:

The potency of phytoestrogens in soy isolate is very low. It only affects people with estrogen deficiency, which is what happens in menopause. It’s extremely low in soy concentrate (due to the way it is treated and extracted). If your testosterone is dropping because you ingested soy, the problem is not the soy, but your overall health. Fix your sleep, fix your diet, lift weights, and worrying about soy is like worrying you had one hair fall out.

[shameus_o'reaaly]

(12-10-2013 11:36 PM)deathtofatties Wrote:  

Every other time I read my Twitter feed, some prominent blogger from the manosphere will tweet something about how veganism is unmanly, or associate veganism with feminist hipster culture. They reinforce this with the notion that "meat is for men!" But is that truly so? Does this sentiment hold water on empirical level?

I haven't found any conclusive evidence that it's necessary to eat any meat whatsoever to maintain or increase testosterone levels, the opposite seems to be true (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2374537/).
Eating too much saturated fat from animal sources can lead to erectile dysfunction (which isn't very masculine). See: http://www.nature.com/ijir/journal/v18/n...1438a.html

Trying to build muscle? You don't need to eat any meat.
http://nutritionfacts.org/video/plant-ba...ybuilding/

As a man that describes himself as a vegan, I'm confused by the anti-vegan sentiment. Veganism is just a blanket term that many people use to quickly identify themselves as a person that eats an exclusively plant based diet, in other words, a person that abstains from consuming anything derived from an animal source. This is why I call myself a vegan, and personally eating this way was a health related choice; I don't vibe with the kumbaya PETA crowd, far from it. I'm a gun loving libertarian guy that reads manosphere blogs daily.

I am well aware that the slightest utterance of the word "vegan" conjures up images of scrawny hipsters, new age hippies, and head-shaved pansexual feminists. It's apparent that veganism has an image problem, but I'd rather not let these disgusting losers co-opt the term veganism as part of their collective, anti-hetero identity.

Whether women like it or not, they follow our lead as men. We have to set a good example for women to follow. If more men ate a plant based diet, I think women would feel more pressure to check their dietary habits. They'd stand out eating garbage. You would see fewer instances of obesity in men, which would be followed by fewer instances of obesity in women.

DTF, have you ever had blood tests done to examine testosterone levels?

And have any veggie posters found honey or royal jelly to be an effective substitute for B12 pills? They allegedly contain very small amounts (couldn't find proof of this, however) and I find it hard to believe that B12 pills are of any real utility compared to first-class sources. After all, the clue is in the name-B12 SUPPLEMENT, not substitute.

On topic, I think "meat is for men" is an entrenched recognition of how expensive it used to be. My father was raised in Ireland, and meat was limited to bacon&eggs on Sundays and a ham or a bird at Christmas and Easter, until he came to England. Eating a joint or a chicken was the preserve or richer people-no factory farming, no freezers or fridges, or at least, fewer by far, smaller population, so smaller demand for meat, smaller distribution network-supermarkets weren't that common, smaller infrastructure, most farmers had smaller operations and grew milk cattle rather than beef, and probably a host of other reasons.
He also told me that in the 70s, in his crowd, you were a vegetarian if you only ate fish

Off-topic again, but an interesting and relevant book is this one, which looks at diet and population pressure as interconnected, examining how cows became sacred and uneatable in India

[GameTheory]

[Mr. Calicoat]

I used to be an ovo-lacto vegeterian, but I became what I'd like to call a "flexitarian". I do eat meat, but only occasionally. I noticed that this is the best for me in terms of health and physical gains.

If we look at our anatomy, we can clearly see that we aren't build to digest lots of meat. Eating lots of meat is - quite frankly - bad for you. If we look at our closest cousins the chimpanzees, we see that their diet consists of merely 7% meat, most of which is actually bugs, not real animal meat.

So I try to stick to those numbers. Merely +/- 5% of my diet contains meat, and I feel much healthier because of it.

[Libertas]

Animal proteins are very necessary for building new muscle and increasing your testosterone levels.

I think one reason why we have such effete men is this fad of veganism (the soy no doubt making it worse).

I used to vary my breakfasts (I'd eat cereal or even absolute junk like poptarts). Then along came August and I started working out again, along with eating eggs or egg whites for breakfast every day along with either bacon or sausage links (all fully natural, of course). Let me tell you that I feel 100% better- more confident, and more motivated.

Does my new breakfast regimen have anything to do with this? I can't say for sure, but I absolutely think so.

[RedPillMind]

(12-11-2013 04:58 PM)Mr. Calicoat Wrote:  

If we look at our anatomy, we can clearly see that we aren't build to digest lots of meat. Eating lots of meat is - quite frankly - bad for you. If we look at our closest cousins the chimpanzees, we see that their diet consists of merely 7% meat, most of which is actually bugs, not real animal meat.

Well by that logic, if we look at our even closer cousins, the Inuit, whose diet comprises of often well over 80% animal meat and fat and see that they have some of the lowest worldwide levels of cancer, coronary heart disease, diabetes, arthritis, asthma, and on and on and on.... then surely we should be copying them and eating as much meat as possible? No?

Comparing humans to chimps and saying that because they eat only 7% meat that we should do likewise makes no sense whatsoever. For all of our similarities genetically, we are still a different species with some very different evolved physiological adaptions.

"If we look at our anatomy, we can clearly see that we aren't build to digest lots of meat."

Really? How so? Explain to me the inner workings of our digestive system and how it is, as you claim, not designed to handle lots of meat. I can't wait to tell the eskimos how they've been fucking up this whole time.

[BIGINJAPAN]

I think what vegans and vegetarians miss is that pure grass fed meat is completely different from big ag poisonous meat...If my only choice was veganism and corn fed beef I think I would go with veganism.... But since I can choose to eat and do eat healthy animals I don't see how their arguments hold any weight... Especially because I am willing to bet all these studies they run, the people in them are eating sick animals and not healthy ones.

[Mr. Calicoat]

(12-11-2013 05:40 PM)RedPillMind Wrote:  

Really? How so? Explain to me the inner workings of our digestive system and how it is, as you claim, not designed to handle lots of meat. I can't wait to tell the eskimos how they've been fucking up this whole time.

Look, I'm not going to give you a whole biology lesson on our digestive system here, Google for some scientific articles if you want to know the fine details. But anyone who knows biology 101 knows that carnivores and true omnivores have short and smooth digestive tracts, with high levels of hydrochloric acid, build to digest low-fiber foods like meat, while herbivores on the other hand have incredibly long digestive tracts build to digest high-fiber foods, like vegetables and fruits.

Guess what kind of digestive system humans have?

Edit: As for Eskimos, they mostly eat fish, not real meat, big difference.

[Mr. Calicoat]

(12-11-2013 06:04 PM)BIGINJAPAN Wrote:  

I think what vegans and vegetarians miss is that pure grass fed meat is completely different from big ag poisonous meat...If my only choice was veganism and corn fed beef I think I would go with veganism.... But since I can choose to eat and do eat healthy animals I don't see how their arguments hold any weight... Especially because I am willing to bet all these studies they run, the people in them are eating sick animals and not healthy ones.

This is 100% true. But lets be fair here, the vast majority of people are either unaware of this fact, or can't afford real grass-fed biological meat. 99% of us eat sick animals, not healthy ones.

Luckily I can afford grass-fed biological meat, and so when I do eat meat (usually 3 to 4 times a week), I'll make sure to get proper meat from an healthy animal raised on a local farm and butchered by a local butcher.

[Aliblahba]

This thread needs more masculinity.
Red pill=red meat




   


Who's with me?

I evolved from:


   


And no amount of science can prove otherwise. My only purpose in life is to kill, eat meat and fuck. People that think we came from monkey are just scared and want to live in trees. Just don't come down to ground level, or you'll have to deal with the Alisaurus.

[RedPillMind]

(12-11-2013 06:17 PM)Mr. Calicoat Wrote:  

(12-11-2013 05:40 PM)RedPillMind Wrote:  

Really? How so? Explain to me the inner workings of our digestive system and how it is, as you claim, not designed to handle lots of meat. I can't wait to tell the eskimos how they've been fucking up this whole time.

Look, I'm not going to give you a whole biology lesson on our digestive system here, Google for some scientific articles if you want to know the fine details. But anyone who knows biology 101 knows that carnivores and true omnivores have short and smooth digestive tracts, with high levels of hydrochloric acid, build to digest low-fiber foods like meat, while herbivores on the other hand have incredibly long digestive tracts build to digest high-fiber foods, like vegetables and fruits.

Guess what kind of digestive system humans have?

Edit: As for Eskimos, they mostly eat fish, not real meat, big difference.

Humans are clearly opportunistic omnivores, our gastrointestinal physiology is intermediate to that of an herbivore (multi-segmented, fermentative stomachs, regurgitation and re-chewing of food in fore-gut herbivores, reliance on bacterial fermentation and the production of volatile organic acids in hind-gut herbivores, and that of a carnivore (short, relatively smooth intestines lacking haustrations for fermentation).

We clearly evolved to be omnivores. But you claim that we should be eating like chimps - no more than 7% meat. Why? We can handle lots of meat (again, see the Inuit for just one example).

Humans have BY FAR the shortest GI tract of all apes by the way. Which makes sense when you consider that we evolved to eat meat from what was once likely a purely herbivorous diet (like most of our closest related primate cousins today).
The advent of cooking lessened our need for such short digestive tracts (among other reasons) so saying we have a longer GI tract than pure carnivores like a lion for example, therefore, we can't handle large quantities of meat makes no sense.

You are the one making big claims here my friend. You said we can't handle a lot of meat. I'm saying ok, fair enough, prove it. The burden of proof with such a wild claim lies completely with you.

Oh, and the eskimos eat mostly seal (as well as walrus, caribou and birds in smaller amounts along with fish obviously too). as their primary food source which is most definitely in the "meat" category. So there goes your theory on that one. Not that it matters. Fish is "meat" too. It's just human language that classifies it as non-meat to some people. I don't see any vegans lining up to chow down on it though.

[shameus_o'reaaly]

(12-11-2013 06:17 PM)Mr. Calicoat Wrote:  

(12-11-2013 05:40 PM)RedPillMind Wrote:  

Really? How so? Explain to me the inner workings of our digestive system and how it is, as you claim, not designed to handle lots of meat. I can't wait to tell the eskimos how they've been fucking up this whole time.

Look, I'm not going to give you a whole biology lesson on our digestive system here, Google for some scientific articles if you want to know the fine details. But anyone who knows biology 101 knows that carnivores and true omnivores have short and smooth digestive tracts, with high levels of hydrochloric acid, build to digest low-fiber foods like meat, while herbivores on the other hand have incredibly long digestive tracts build to digest high-fiber foods, like vegetables and fruits.

Guess what kind of digestive system humans have?

Edit: As for Eskimos, they mostly eat fish, not real meat, big difference.

Yeah but aren't human digestive tracts imperfectly adapted to some fibrous foods? Even with the benefit of cooking, proteins available in rice, potatoes are excreted and not digested. And EXCLUSIVE herbivores have multiple stomachs.

[shameus_o'reaaly]

OT, but this thread is really engaging:
How do animals who have exclusively plant based diets get so muscular?

Bulls, hippopotami, elephants, rhino, and if i remember right, gorillas, are all enormously strong despite subsisting on plants. Even if you compare with vegans/veggies in really good health, they seem unusually powerful animals.
Do their digestive systems give them access to amino acids humans can't use?

[Suits]

What type of man says no to something this beautiful?







Or you could eat this:











I think it's pretty obvious what God wanted us to eat.

[BIGINJAPAN]

(12-11-2013 06:27 PM)Mr. Calicoat Wrote:  

(12-11-2013 06:04 PM)BIGINJAPAN Wrote:  

I think what vegans and vegetarians miss is that pure grass fed meat is completely different from big ag poisonous meat...If my only choice was veganism and corn fed beef I think I would go with veganism.... But since I can choose to eat and do eat healthy animals I don't see how their arguments hold any weight... Especially because I am willing to bet all these studies they run, the people in them are eating sick animals and not healthy ones.

This is 100% true. But lets be fair here, the vast majority of people are either unaware of this fact, or can't afford real grass-fed biological meat. 99% of us eat sick animals, not healthy ones.

Luckily I can afford grass-fed biological meat, and so when I do eat meat (usually 3 to 4 times a week), I'll make sure to get proper meat from an healthy animal raised on a local farm and butchered by a local butcher.

Its totally affordable.... it is just how you approach it... First off if you can't afford the steaks, buy the ground beef... secondly buy directly from the farmer... I think at this point it would be impossible to not find a grass fed farm outside out of any major city in north america.... Also learn how to make pate's and shit like that using the organs... It is delicious and has way more nutrients that a steak... Also splitting a half cow with a friend or 2 will save you tremendous money... Same goes for the eggs... I get them directly from the farmer.... I buy 12-15 dozen at a time... In Vancouver I am currently paying around $3 bucks for a dozen... Also save the bones so you can make your own broths... No need for Ali's collagen supplements when you make your own bone broth

[Mr. Calicoat]

Eskimos are an exception to the rule really, they're not the ultimate proof that humans can (or are meant to be) eat tons of meat without getting health problems.

While it's true that diary products, grain and corn are a lot worse for us than meat, and while it's true that meat in small amounts is very healthy, especially if you work-out, eating lots of meat is by no means healthy, especially not red meat, which is the worst kind of meat for us humans.

You can see that a high-fiber diet is much more important for human-beings who want to live healthy, while carbs on the other hand are better cut low. The idea that meat is the best source of food for muscle-growth is quite frankly, a myth. High-fiber products such as broccoli, berries and spinach is what you need for muscle gain. Red meat can be beneficial too, but only if it's grass-fed and occasional. Everyone knows that eating lots of red meat is directly related to many of the health problems we often see in our modern-day western society. Just look at the diet of an average obese fat-ass cunt who suffers from type 2 diabetes and a high cholesterol. They're all primarily meat eaters, red meat eaters.

Now of course if you live an active life, you sleep enough and at regular times, work-out and eat enough high-fiber products, you're not gonna notice the negative effects of too much red meat. You're probably gonna feel just fine. But if you don't have such a lifestyle and you still eat too much (red) meat, then you can bet your sweet cheeks that sooner or later you're gonna notice the negative effects of it.

Being healthy is all about balance, and in this case, an occasional home-made hamburger 3-4 times a week is the correct balance to gain all the benefits of eating meat, while not suffering from the negatives.

[deathtofatties]

(12-11-2013 06:58 PM)shameus_oreaaly Wrote:  

OT, but this thread is really engaging:
How do animals who have exclusively plant based diets get so muscular?

Bulls, hippopotami, elephants, rhino, and if i remember right, gorillas, are all enormously strong despite subsisting on plants. Even if you compare with vegans/veggies in really good health, they seem unusually powerful animals.
Do their digestive systems give them access to amino acids humans can't use?

That's what I always wondered about. They eat a lot of greens, which do have protein, calcium, zinc... I think it's the potassium too.

[killthosepuppys]

im eating high carb low fat vegan for one year now and im the leanest and fitest i ever was.best digestion i ever had in my life
i dont atack ppl for eating meat and stuff but most who find out im vegan act weird/make unfunny remarks
i do promote it by just being the best version of myself and hoping that others will see that and start thinking thats the best way imo
wow i sound smug but whatever thats real life cant always tell what you really think or else i wouldnt have a job/family/friends
imo ppl who consume animal products daily or even to every meal are stupid and delusional and it smells like a dog has been dead for 10 days after they take a shit

[Mr. Calicoat]

(12-11-2013 07:02 PM)BIGINJAPAN Wrote:  

Its totally affordable.... it is just how you approach it... First off if you can't afford the steaks, buy the ground beef... secondly buy directly from the farmer... I think at this point it would be impossible to not find a grass fed farm outside out of any major city in north america.... Also learn how to make pate's and shit like that using the organs... It is delicious and has way more nutrients that a steak... Also splitting a half cow with a friend or 2 will save you tremendous money... Same goes for the eggs... I get them directly from the farmer.... I buy 12-15 dozen at a time... In Vancouver I am currently paying around $3 bucks for a dozen... Also save the bones so you can make your own broths... No need for Ali's collagen supplements when you make your own bone broth

Good tips, some of which I was already aware and implemented in my own lifestyle, but also plenty of new tips. I like the idea of saving the bones to make your own broths. I never thought of that. Thanks!