[2Wycked]

First off, check out this blog by a ex-military male feminist. Please, go troll. Dude is a faggot.

The main problem with MRA's is that they are literally like this man "Alek," but instead of constantly talking about how good men have it, MRA's whine about how bad it is to be a man.

Alek really needs to read my thread on the psychology of the sex war.

A primary issue here is that all of the whining is simply theoretical. Alek's blog whines about video games, media and men who do bad things to women. Seriously, so you have strong female characters in video games, so what? Women balked at Lara Croft in Tomb Raider because she had real agency, they just used her huge tits as an excuse to avoid dealing with the fact Croft has true agency - she alone determines her fate. When jackasses like Alek whine about there not being solid female characters, what he is complaining about is that the female characters don't exhibit secondary agency, or agency gifted by somebody else.

However, all that narcissism analysis isn't the point of this post, but what is relevant is how fools like Alek think empowerment works. So women have strong female characters in video games, so what? It's a damn game. That doesn't mean women are hitting the gym, bettering their resume or anything that will bring real, true value to their life. They need mediums like media and video games to act out what they are terrified to do in real life.

That is my same beef with MRA's. It should come as no surprise that Paul Elam had the gumption to debate the necessity of game with Frost some time ago. Elam isn't a fan of personal change, but just bitching about how men are true victims. If Elam was born a woman, he would undoubtedly be a feminist. The fact that Elam is gay should tell you much about his personality.

Like male feminists like Alek, MRA's misinterpret the world around in ways that reinforce their personal delusions of victimhood and oppression. Like feminists, they hijack legitimate concerns that often have little or no relation to "gender" issues. Take rape. You mean to tell me that anti-social & narcissistic personality issues/sociopathy are caused by a society that hates women? Are you fucking retarded? The same with divorce culture. There is no misandry that causes that, but simply that the system that knows to keep women in the game, they need laws that favor women.

One of the greatest limitations of the manosphere is the use of the word "misandry." Like misogyny, misandry doesn't exist. If somebody perceives women or men in a negative light, it is most likely because of bad experiences with that sex. This results in both sides screaming past each other simply because to admit their issues could result in real change. Further --especially with us men -- once we the label of "mommy issues" or general issues with women, we get tossed and ignored. A women with daddy issues gets help/compassion, a man with mommy issues tossed in the trashbin. The real problem -- as always -- is narcissism, as only a narcissist would label somebody with serious issues and discard them once they get that label.

Still, the most aggravating aspect of MRA's is their inability to truly change. I have said it before and many, many others have recognized this, but RVF is an elite and exclusive forum precisely because it embraces real change. Roosh himself came from the basement of non-game to a man with strong game. You won't hear an MRA doing something like that. The fear of personal change is reflected in MRA's bleatings. Emphasis on theory is what fuels them - as most of them haven't been fucked in divorce court or accused of rape falsely. They take those issues and use them as a way of excusing their own inability to learn game.

I have little respect for MRA's and the more I learn about psychology and game, the less respect I have for them. They may to do good work with respects to father's rights or raising awareness about injustices in divorce court, but beyond that, I don't have much respect for them.

To put this bluntly: What women wants to be with man who sees himself as a victim? What is he, a woman?

[soup]

Can mras pull?

[funkyzeit]

They are pathetic. Same as feminists, they want hottest women to respect them, desire them, fuck them and adore them while they bring nothing to the table. They will whine, they will "notice gender injustice" and do nothing to adapt, get to know the system and use it for their benefit (ie. learn game). Just like feminists refuse to get slimmer, let their hair grow long and acquire feminine personality.

[It_is_my_time]

Isn't a good portion of this forum MRA?

The system is broken because women are the majority of voters. MRA's shine their light on this and are trying to give us men a voice. If every man knew "game" and could "pull" women, we would have a severe shortage of decent women for the decent men and in the end female hypergamy would be out of control.

The MRA's have many great points and as long as their points are not addressed, things will continue to get drastically worse. Being a PUA might get you by for a while, until one of those feminist laws the MRA's are fighting against come up to bite you in the ass.

[KorbenDallas]

2 Wycked, I think your missing the point... I totally agree about mens rights activists being annoying. I can't stand whiners. But at the same time, I don't deal with them, and they are fighting for better laws in the US with regards to forming a family. No one else is doing that. No one else is fighting for my interests. So, even though I find them annoying and wouldn't want to be around them, I don't think we should shit on them.

In life, the people who have fought for my interests are, me and my dad. That's it. So, if MRA's want to fight for better laws for me, then there good in my book. So, they're losers who you find pathetic. As long as they're fighting for you why do you care if they're not getting laid? Tell them to improve themselves and life will be 10* better, but if they don't then at least they are fighting for you.

Hot girls in the US aren't feminist, but they don't attack they're ugly brethren who fight for their special privileges just because they wouldn't be caught dead hanging out with them. So what if they're not achievers. They are fighting for you. The stuff they moan about is true. Let em moan about it. It doesn't hurt us.

[It_is_my_time]

Many of the MRA's I have known are very successful men. Men that a lot of the young guys here could look up to. But they don't have the time or energy to jump through hoops to try to win favors from women who are becoming vastly worse. And even if they do jump through those hoops time to time, as you get older and more busy in life, you don't have time for PUA game and don't have the energy or desire to deal with all the headaches.

IMO, the MRA's are leading the way.

[funkyzeit]

(12-04-2013 04:29 AM)KorbenDallas Wrote:  

2 Wycked, I think your missing the point... I totally agree about mens rights activists being annoying. I can't stand whiners. But at the same time, I don't deal with them, and they are fighting for better laws in the US with regards to forming a family. No one else is doing that. No one else is fighting for my interests. So, even though I find them annoying and wouldn't want to be around them, I don't think we should shit on them.

In life, the people who have fought for my interests are, me and my dad. That's it. So, if MRA's want to fight for better laws for me, then there good in my book. So, they're losers who you find pathetic. As long as they're fighting for you why do you care if they're not getting laid? Tell them to improve themselves and life will be 10* better, but if they don't then at least they are fighting for you.

Hot girls in the US aren't feminist, but they don't attack they're ugly brethren who fight for their special privileges just because they wouldn't be caught dead hanging out with them. So what if they're not achievers. They are fighting for you. The stuff they moan about is true. Let em moan about it. It doesn't hurt us.

99% of them are not fighting for anything, they are just complaining on their personal blogs and giving each other likes on facebook. We are the ones fighting for something, we are the ones that don't sit at home and write walls of text about how frustrated we are. If we have a problem, we solve it or we come here or somewhere else to find a solution. Sure, we are on the same page with them when it comes to seeing injustice and certain unfairness that's happening to males today, but our coping with that is different.

[It_is_my_time]

(12-04-2013 06:02 AM)funkyzeit Wrote:  

(12-04-2013 04:29 AM)KorbenDallas Wrote:  

2 Wycked, I think your missing the point... I totally agree about mens rights activists being annoying. I can't stand whiners. But at the same time, I don't deal with them, and they are fighting for better laws in the US with regards to forming a family. No one else is doing that. No one else is fighting for my interests. So, even though I find them annoying and wouldn't want to be around them, I don't think we should shit on them.

In life, the people who have fought for my interests are, me and my dad. That's it. So, if MRA's want to fight for better laws for me, then there good in my book. So, they're losers who you find pathetic. As long as they're fighting for you why do you care if they're not getting laid? Tell them to improve themselves and life will be 10* better, but if they don't then at least they are fighting for you.

Hot girls in the US aren't feminist, but they don't attack they're ugly brethren who fight for their special privileges just because they wouldn't be caught dead hanging out with them. So what if they're not achievers. They are fighting for you. The stuff they moan about is true. Let em moan about it. It doesn't hurt us.

99% of them are not fighting for anything, they are just complaining on their personal blogs and giving each other likes on facebook. We are the ones fighting for something, we are the ones that don't sit at home and write walls of text about how frustrated we are. If we have a problem, we solve it or we come here or somewhere else to find a solution. Sure, we are on the same page with them when it comes to seeing injustice and certain unfairness that's happening to males today, but our coping with that is different.

I disagree. I know of MRA's who are out there fighting the good fight. Whether they are divorce attorneys who take up for men. Or men who are trying to get young men to wake up.

I am all for young men using PUA to get laid. The USA is toxic and men have needs. At the same time, I don't see PUA as fighting against the system, as much as just trying to adapt to it. As long as it is done with the knowledge that the system is wrong, then it is all good. If PUA is done under the false pretenses that you have the system all figured out and those MRA's are just jealous, then you are cruising for a bruising.

[Maciano]

MRA's: Sometimes interesting, often wrong, always losing.

They think arguments can win people over to their PoV. False. People follow their interests and base their arguments on these interests.

I also dislike them for being killjoys. Who can feel inspired by Paul Elam's Weltschmerz? Men aren't inspired by weak people. We need strong positive role models who don't care about all the factions in society keeping them down & succeed through sheer will power to succeed.

[j r]

Here are my thoughts about MRAs: everybody wants to be a victim these days.

[Sargon of Akkad]

Simply put, MRA's are the male counterpart of feminazis, along with the gender counterpart of white supremacists. They whine about systematic "misandry/male oppression" in the same way neonazis bitch about "white genocide", both imagined and/or exaggerated problems used as an excuse to fuel reactionary movements.

[It_is_my_time]

(12-04-2013 06:59 AM)Sargon of Akkad Wrote:  

Simply put, MRA's are the male counterpart of feminazis, along with the gender counterpart of white supremacists. They whine about systematic "misandry/male oppression" in the same way neonazis bitch about "white genocide", both imagined and/or exaggerated problems used as an excuse to fuel reactionary movements.

I'm not sure how things are in Japan, but in the USA things are getting pretty bad for men, and it gets worse and worse year after year. Women get more of what they demand and find it isn't enough and ask for more and more.

Had to imagine just 15 years ago there was no VAWA. Now it is used routinely to make out any man going through a divorce out to be a monster.

[bojangles]

MRA's victimise themselves too much, they are a part of the big victim culture we have in society.

[Sargon of Akkad]

(12-04-2013 07:22 AM)It_is_my_time Wrote:  

(12-04-2013 06:59 AM)Sargon of Akkad Wrote:  

Simply put, MRA's are the male counterpart of feminazis, along with the gender counterpart of white supremacists. They whine about systematic "misandry/male oppression" in the same way neonazis bitch about "white genocide", both imagined and/or exaggerated problems used as an excuse to fuel reactionary movements.

I'm not sure how things are in Japan, but in the USA things are getting pretty bad for men, and it gets worse and worse year after year. Women get more of what they demand and find it isn't enough and ask for more and more.

Had to imagine just 15 years ago there was no VAWA. Now it is used routinely to make out any man going through a divorce out to be a monster.

Of course there are pockets where women have an advantage, but if we had it so bad over there in the US, why is almost every position of authority or power filled by us? Divorces and child custody asside, we still rule the entire world and there's nothing indicating that's going to change anytime soon. This is why I cannot listen to any of the MRA's claims of "sysematic male-oppression" and keep a straight face, any more than I can do so with white nationalists moaning about "white genocide".

[It_is_my_time]

(12-04-2013 08:13 AM)Sargon of Akkad Wrote:  

(12-04-2013 07:22 AM)It_is_my_time Wrote:  

(12-04-2013 06:59 AM)Sargon of Akkad Wrote:  

Simply put, MRA's are the male counterpart of feminazis, along with the gender counterpart of white supremacists. They whine about systematic "misandry/male oppression" in the same way neonazis bitch about "white genocide", both imagined and/or exaggerated problems used as an excuse to fuel reactionary movements.

I'm not sure how things are in Japan, but in the USA things are getting pretty bad for men, and it gets worse and worse year after year. Women get more of what they demand and find it isn't enough and ask for more and more.

Had to imagine just 15 years ago there was no VAWA. Now it is used routinely to make out any man going through a divorce out to be a monster.

Of course there are pockets where women have an advantage, but if we had it so bad over there in the US, why is almost every position of authority or power filled by us? Divorces and child custody asside, we still rule the entire world and there's nothing indicating that's going to change anytime soon.

Because women can sit on their rear ends and do nothing and those men in "power" work themselves to an early grave finding ways to steal from the hundred+ million lower men to give to the women to keep the women satisfied.

Men rule much of the world, but not the USA. And the USA is collapsing due to it.

[The Beast1]

(12-04-2013 07:27 AM)bojangles Wrote:  

MRA's victimise themselves too much, they are a part of the big victim culture we have in society.

This is my problem with MRAs too.

Feminists are lucky in that since the natural response to them is white knightery they can get away with being victims. Minorities too.

But when you're a white man, hell even an Indian or Asian man you're working against stereotypes that say you should be "x, y, and z".

MRAs think they can win the battle using the same argument formulation as feminists and minorities. Newsflash, it doesn't work. You have to pick on them like real men by calling their arguments weak. Agree and amplify their victimhood because in all honesty the victim culture we have here wants to be dominated by a more powerful force.

[Statsi]

I'm a little torn on them to be honest. I feel a certain brotherhood with someone who is attempting to better my situation in life, similar to how I feel about unions in theory, however they've chosen a very left-wing way of going about it. Trying to change the world suit their sensibilities, rather than building the world they want to see. It's like accepting someone frame rather than removing yourself from it. Don't like marriage laws? Then don't get married, problem solved. Don't want to be used as a drink dispenser by girls? Then don't buy them a drink, problem solved.

As with everyone on the left I notice a lack of personal growth and inablitity to build anything. Genuinely simply asking them what they've created shows them to be a waste of time. They would rather spend their time bemoaning the bahviour of people and the systemic injustices rather than building anything. If the system is failing because some people are scum bags that's because you are in a shitty system. The soluton is to either remove yourself, or to build a new system that incentivises good behaviour. Pointing out subjective issues without addressing the objective reality is a joke. Some things have a literal efficient solution, yet none of them ever come up with one as they'd rather complain about the injustice of it all. Using their agency to call to some greater power to fix things for them.

Quote:

Still, the most aggravating aspect of MRA's is their inability to truly change. I have said it before and many, many others have recognized this, but RVF is an elite and exclusive forum precisely because it embraces real change. Roosh himself came from the basement of non-game to a man with strong game. You won't hear an MRA doing something like that. The fear of personal change is reflected in MRA's bleatings.

I came from an MRA background man. Genuinely I'm pretty well versed in all of the theory, have seen the same damn artcles and issues are come around every month or so. I tried to come up with objective efficient solutions, and feel I have done so in some cases, which is what brought me here. So I don't know about no mra being able to change, but then now I consider myself something more, so maybe you are correct. Not left, nor right, but forward.

[It_is_my_time]

Quote:

I came from an MRA background man. Genuinely I'm pretty well versed in all of the theory, have seen the same damn artcles and issues are come around every month or so. I tried to come up with objective efficient solutions, and feel I have done so in some cases, which is what brought me here. So I don't know about no mra being able to change, but then now I consider myself something more, so maybe you are correct. Not left, nor right, but forward.

Much the same with me.

It seems the MRA's are divided into two groups, and grouping them together is not accurate. What 2Wycked is describing are the MRA's who just sit on their asses and complain. And these MRA's certainly do exist.

The others are guys like myself. Since I was little I have always been into self improvement. Rather than reading books, I would rather read the world almanac and just learn about the world and history. Rather than hanging with friend I wanted to work on my physical fitness as a teen. And there are many other MRA's like this as well.

IMO, Roosh is an MRA. In the camp of MRA's who are about self improvement and doing the best they can do with what they have. Rather than crying, Roosh packed up and moved places far better. Rather than hating life, Roosh made his life excellent.

[Statsi]

Quote:

Much the same with me.

It seems the MRA's are divided into two groups, and grouping them together is not accurate. What 2Wycked is describing are the MRA's who just sit on their asses and complain. And these MRA's certainly do exist.

The others are guys like myself. Since I was little I have always been into self improvement. Rather than reading books, I would rather read the world almanac and just learn about the world and history. Rather than hanging with friend I wanted to work on my physical fitness as a teen. And there are many other MRA's like this as well.

IMO, Roosh is an MRA. In the camp of MRA's who are about self improvement and doing the best they can do with what they have. Rather than crying, Roosh packed up and moved places far better. Rather than hating life, Roosh made his life excellent.

Man I really liked the end of your post. 'Rather than hating life, Roosh made his life excellent.' made me smile for some reason. New siggy for me.

Infact your whole post is cool man, it's posts like this I appreciate this forum for. Outside of the raw information here the posts are also upbeat and strong. Good man, off to beast the gym now.

[Princeton]

The problem is the act of complaining isn't masculine. The MRA movement feels like tattling to the teacher because a girl slapped you at recess. It's not manly behavior. I think this puts MRAs in a paradoxical position from the outset.

They make some very good points (especially regarding legal inequities) but when it looks like men - who are supposed to be running shit - are begging society to look at their booboo - it just comes off as pathetic (to men and women) and doesn't get much traction.

Every man needs to do his part out in the real world, by checking individual bitches who step out of line. But I don't know if this whole "wounded brotherhood" is going to be appealing to many people.

[J.J.]

(12-04-2013 06:59 AM)Sargon of Akkad Wrote:  

Simply put, MRA's are the male counterpart of feminazis, along with the gender counterpart of white supremacists. They whine about systematic "misandry/male oppression" in the same way neonazis bitch about "white genocide", both imagined and/or exaggerated problems used as an excuse to fuel reactionary movements.

Exactly this. Its hard to take a movement seriously when its mostly white males bitching that somehow White men are being oppressed. If thats true, then white men must have the most perks ever for an oppressed class. Last I checked, they still are the vast majority of legislative seats, CEO, management positions, high status positions, wealth, etc. How can you be the victim if you have the most power in society?

[It_is_my_time]

(12-04-2013 11:08 AM)J.J. Wrote:  

(12-04-2013 06:59 AM)Sargon of Akkad Wrote:  

Simply put, MRA's are the male counterpart of feminazis, along with the gender counterpart of white supremacists. They whine about systematic "misandry/male oppression" in the same way neonazis bitch about "white genocide", both imagined and/or exaggerated problems used as an excuse to fuel reactionary movements.

Exactly this. Its hard to take a movement seriously when its mostly white males bitching that somehow White men are being oppressed. If thats true, then white men must have the most perks ever for an oppressed class. Last I checked, they still are the vast majority of legislative seats, CEO, management positions, high status positions, wealth, etc. How can you be the victim if you have the most power in society?

They are also the majority of those with degrees and experience to gain those positions.

And it has nothing to do with race. Bringing race to this debate is nonsense. All men are badly discriminated against in the USA and at least the MRA's are standing up about it, rather than just letting it get worse.

[Sargon of Akkad]

(12-04-2013 11:11 AM)It_is_my_time Wrote:  

They are also the majority of those with degrees and experience to gain those positions.

And it has nothing to do with race. Bringing race to this debate is nonsense. All men are badly discriminated against in the USA and at least the MRA's are standing up about it, rather than just letting it get worse.

All men are badly discriminated in the USA...



Anyone who says this doesn't know what real discrimination is. Again, that's why we run almost all the major businesses, make almost all the laws that are supposedly meant to discriminate against ourselves, we run practically all the world's nations, we get to make practically all the rules, yet we're still somehow the most oppressed little things in the world.

Right.

[Ocelot]

(12-04-2013 08:13 AM)Sargon of Akkad Wrote:  

(12-04-2013 07:22 AM)It_is_my_time Wrote:  

(12-04-2013 06:59 AM)Sargon of Akkad Wrote:  

Simply put, MRA's are the male counterpart of feminazis, along with the gender counterpart of white supremacists. They whine about systematic "misandry/male oppression" in the same way neonazis bitch about "white genocide", both imagined and/or exaggerated problems used as an excuse to fuel reactionary movements.

I'm not sure how things are in Japan, but in the USA things are getting pretty bad for men, and it gets worse and worse year after year. Women get more of what they demand and find it isn't enough and ask for more and more.

Had to imagine just 15 years ago there was no VAWA. Now it is used routinely to make out any man going through a divorce out to be a monster.

Of course there are pockets where women have an advantage, but if we had it so bad over there in the US, why is almost every position of authority or power filled by us? Divorces and child custody asside, we still rule the entire world and there's nothing indicating that's going to change anytime soon. This is why I cannot listen to any of the MRA's claims of "sysematic male-oppression" and keep a straight face, any more than I can do so with white nationalists moaning about "white genocide".

Everything is wrong with this post; it seems you've bought into the mainstream feminist rhetoric regarding "privilege".

First things first, can you really say men "rule the world" in a democracy, when more women vote than men. There are no barriers to entry for female politicians, all they require is that people vote for them.

Secondly, what you're ignoring when you focus on male over-representation at the top of society, is that there is also male over-representation at the bottom. Over-representation itself doesn't even tell us anything anyway, unless you're actually assuming there are no inherent differences between men and women. Furthermore, of what consolation is it to a man born into poverty that more men than women are rich? It's completely irrelevant unless you can actually demonstrate that it's easier for him to improve his position than a women in the same place.

Does the fact that there are more men than women who can bench 220 follow as a result from systemic oppression against women? How about the fact that 75% of gambling addicts are men? There are far more male geniuses than female, and there are also far more male idiots; the feminist line of thinking would be to ignore the latter point, claim that women are being held back by the patriarchy and demand special funding for girls' education, when the reality is that male and female traits are simply distributed differently.



Third, trying to compare gender to race is ridiculous. Women, as a class, have never been oppressed or systemically exploited in any society, ever. The position of women in times past would be better compared to that of children - less agency than men, but exposed to none of the risks that men were. Feminism has nothing in common with the civil rights movement, and would be better compared to a child throwing a tantrum in the sweet shop. Some MRAs play the role of trying to reason with the child in terms of their feelings, instead of ignoring it, which is why they catch so much aggro over here. They accede to a feminine frame of victimhood and social constructs, as opposed to focusing on what's tangible, and taking an appropriate course of action.

Last, because this stood out the most:

Quote:

Divorces and child custody aside

This is the single most important thing MRAs are campaigning against, it's the crux of their movement; you don't just get to push it to one side then attack what's left. This whole way of thinking is sloppy and wilfully ignorant.

[Sawyer]

You've got to be able to pull a woman in order to lead a woman. The real front is here. The MRAs are in the rear with the gear.