[Sp5]

What are the pros and cons of being in the military? I am just talking about the utilitarian benefits of joining to you, as an individual. Leave the morality of war or the objects of foreign policy aside for this discussion.

I did 25 years, active and reserve. I know AliB and Fisto also did time, I am sure others on the forum. My experience was mostly positive, but there is no doubt that the military can fuck you up, obviously get you killed.

If you know what you’re getting into, you can have some control over your service. The U.S. military has enlistment contracts and officer selection programs that allow you to choose your job and sometimes where you’re going. These can be overruled for the “needs of the service,” but are generally honored, at least the guaranteed training.

In these times, I don’t recommend the line ground combat arms jobs (infantry, armor, artillery) or even combat support (air defense, military police) because all of those guys end up doing patrols in Afghanistan to a greater or lesser extent. The risk/reward ratio for your service is not as good as, say, being a wheeled vehicle mechanic or finance clerk.

There are contracts and mandated benefits for military service, but don’t have any illusion that “they” really care about you. If you are injured or go crazy from service, they will kick you to the curb pretty quickly and you will have to fight for those benefits.

But the benefits can be pretty good, especially the U.S. GI Bill, which pays a good amount of money for a university or vocational training education. You can even attend foreign universities. There are a lot of other service and lifetime benefits – for example, veterans’ preference in government employment.

It’s better to have a low risk / high reward job. You get the GI Bill whether you were an infantryman who did three tours in Iraq and Afghanistan or a personnel clerk at Fort Lewis. The base pay and allowances are the same, too.

If you do feel compelled to test your mettle in battle in the combat arms, try to get into the best unit you can – special operations forces. The quality of leadership is better, the training is better, your peers are smarter, the deployments shorter.

Think about where you want to live, and what training and basing options there are to satisfy your wishes. You won’t be able to be stationed in Cannes, for example. You might not want to pick a job that limits you to a few bases in rural North and South Dakota and Nebraska.

Each of the U.S. services has its own culture. The Army is the largest, and also the dumbest, but it has many interesting and cozy niches, for example water transportation, port operations, signal intelligence, and aviation. The Air Force is mostly like a uniformed civil service, with some exceptions like fighter and bomber crews and combat controllers and pararescue. The Marines are well enough known, they have excellent publicity agents. The Navy is not all ships and submarines, they have the Seabees, various support for the Marines, and large fixed-wing aviation.

You can be trained in just about anything in the military. There are barber schools, language schools, all kinds of mechanical schools, IT schools. Just be careful that what you’re learning has some outside application. Some of the skills can lead to a meal ticket for life – for example, there are scores of helicopter mechanic jobs being contracted out to civilians now.

If you’re in the right spot, being in the military is mostly like a regular job. You might live in barracks, which are increasingly comfortable these days. They feed you in what they now call a “dining facility,” with plenty of choices. With lodging and food paid for, your income is disposable.

I don’t know as much about foreign militaries. I do know the Canadian forces are extremely well paid. The UK is paid around the same as the US military. There is also the Legion Etrangere if you want to have French beat into you.

Something to think about, but go into it well-informed and with your eyes open.

[invictusiii]

I would recommend at least one enlistment for anyone straight out of highschool without the means to pay for the majority of college themselves. Pick a job that interests you and will have some sort of application on the outside. Also when you are in take full advantage of the education benefits. I was in the Air Force for 9 years. I was trained in a foreign language and also earned a bachelors degree. This was all paid for 100% (minus books). I still have the GI bill which will pay for me to get another degree if I choose and even provides a stipend for books and living expenses while in school.

Like any job there are pros and cons. I deployed several times for my job and had some awesome experiences. I hated being stateside however. My day to day job was monotonous and full of pointless admin duties which I couldn't care less about. Promotions in the Air Force aren't truly based on merit either. Basically don't be a fuck up and learn to pass a test on Air Force history, regulations and other pointless bullshit. Because of this, you are frequently working under complete idiots. They can buckle down and regurgitate Air Force doctrine when they need to but when it comes to common sense they come up short.

There is also the option of foreign travel. I was lucky enough to be stationed in England for 2 years. I made the most of my time off and any long weekends and took EasyJet or Ryanair flights to different countries. This largely made up for my hatred of my day job. Once I got back to the states my access to cheap international travel was cut off so I decided the military was no longer for me.

All military branches get 30 days a year of paid time off which is better than most civilian jobs. Good luck planning ahead for vacations though. Depending on your job, be prepared to cancel your trip because of a deployment or because something else requires you to be at work. You are on call 24/7 essentially.

Overall though I think the military would be a good fit for someone just starting out on their own. You come out with free training, discipline and life experience. Just make sure you take the military for all it's worth as far as benefits go. They will definitely take you for all you're worth. If you play your cards right, you will come out far ahead than your average college graduate.

[Aliblahba]

My four in the Corp and years in the warzones were the best times of my life. Today is the Marines Corps birthday. A day to to celebrate and reflect with my brothers-in-arms.

[Checkmat]

Your experience in the military will vary so, so SOO SOOOO much depending on which branch you enlist in (or if you enlist vs commission) and from there you can wittle it down into different types of jobs (operations, support, admin etc) which vary even more. Lifestyle between roommates within the same branch can be night and day.

I actually have been working on a data sheet for this very subject. Since this thread came up I'll work on it this week and drop it soon.

[PoosyWrecker]

I would advise against joining combat arms unless you had a special operations contract, especially now that the wars are over. The poor quality of training and the amount of time wasted on stupid things in line infantry companies is just mind blowing.

[WestIndianArchie]

Why did I think this was going to be a post about the life of a warrior?

WIA

[hoops330]

Interesting thread with Veterans Day upon us. I recently swore into the army and ship out in July but am taking a different route. As a college graduate I decided to pursue OCS (officer candidate school). I'm looking forward to reading posts on this thread.
Happy Veterans Day to the vets here and thank you for your sacrifice.

[Vaun]

thank you veterans

[Swearbox]

The OP asked what the pros and cons are to serving in the military. As a 15 yr veteran of the Royal Air Force (weapons tech) I can't find one con to list, with maybe the exception of having to do parades now and then (I hated parades). Fair enough it's a 24/7 x 365 job but for the most part it's like many other 'normal' jobs where you get to go home to your family & loved ones at the end of the day if you aren't deployed somewhere. The odd exercise here and there is a chore but they don't come around every week.

The camaraderie is second to none if you pick your trade well...as an armourer I know I joined not just a trade but a brotherhood that lasts well beyond our time picking up the Queen's shilling. If you excel in a particular sport then expect to be doing that more than you do whatever trade it is you picked...the military is a great place to be if you're good at sport.

As for getting deployed to somewhere shitty it's a risk, much more these days than when I joined up. I was in the service when the Falklands War kicked off but didn't get deployed however I was out in the Middle East when Desert Shield/Desert Storm kicked off. The trade I picked ensured I wouldn't be going hand to hand in a trench somewhere...we were based in Saudi Arabia which was many many miles away from the front lines though we were in range of Saddam's SCUD missiles and my diary says we had 28 sent our way.

Personally I wouldn't swap my time in the Air Force for anything, I'd do it all again in a heartbeat. It might seem a tough go at first but every serviceman goes through that. Basic training is designed to weed out the ones that can't operate under pressure or can't tolerate being told what to do. You get past that phase and your world suddenly gets a whole lot better.

These are just the experiences of a British ex serviceman that hopefully provides a bit of contrast to what more than likely will be input from my North American counterparts, whatever, it's all good.

[Heath Brinson]

When one or both spouses are in the military, the marriage faces stresses that civilian marriages generally don't face. Long deployments, separations, and other military obligations bring extra challenges.

[vinman]

Pros: You get to travel, make life long friends, learn the limits of you physical/ mental/ emotional limits, kill people and break shit.

Cons: During peace time if you're a grunt you get to guard everybody else's shit, and do other bullshit details. During war your friends get fucked up or dead. Relationships with non military personnel suffer because you're deployed or training to deploy. And it fucks up movies for you. When you see some hot shit action star handling weapons incorrectly, or bullets instantly stopping people. My favorite is outrunning explosions. Yeah, that works. I was talking with some friends of mine that have seen combat at various times and we shared how long it took us to watch certain movies. The opening scene of Saving Private Ryan fucks with all of us. And it took me over three years to be able to watch Blackhawk down from start to finish. I could only watch it for so long and I would have to do something else. And the shit I experienced wasn't NEARLY as kinetic as Iraq. As fucked up as it sounds I probably wouldn't do anything differently.

[cool]

I have been in the Army for a little over 4 years with about 10 months remaining to serve.

If you have dealings today with the US Army, with the exception of small, elite SOF units and combat arms units that are all male, is just how utterly unmilitary it is. Today's armed forces are a bizarre, dysfunctional place. There are still plenty of good men trapped in it, but their numbers are dwindling and the culture is against them.

There is a pervasive culture of laziness, very little ever gets accomplished on training days, and the simplest tasks take about twice the time they should. Every soldier throughout history experiences the joys of "hurry up and wait", but much of this dysfunction is due to sheer disorganization.

About a month ago, my battalion had to go on a two week field exercise. We are a support battalion so we rarely go to the field. Rumor was that we were only going because the battalion commander hadn't gone to the field in his three years at the unit and he needed it for a bullet point on his OER (officer evaluation report). Generally, a field exercise would be planned months in advance, but this goat rodeo was thrown together in two weeks. All this rolls down on lower enlisted.

Other points:

You will be subjected to an endless and rigorous program of politically correct indoctrination which may well break your will to live completely.

The wars are winding down and the Army is settling into a garrison life of grinding boredom.

Army girls are plain at best, butch dykes at worst and every post is a big sausagefest.

[cool]

(11-12-2013 04:45 AM)cool Wrote:  

I have been in the Army for a little over 4 years with about 10 months remaining to serve.

If you have dealings today with the US Army, with the exception of small, elite SOF units and combat arms units that are all male, is just how utterly unmilitary it is. Today's armed forces are a bizarre, dysfunctional place. There are still plenty of good men trapped in it, but their numbers are dwindling and the culture is against them.

There is a pervasive culture of laziness, very little ever gets accomplished on training days, and the simplest tasks take about twice the time they should. Every soldier throughout history experiences the joys of "hurry up and wait", but much of this dysfunction is due to sheer disorganization.

About a month ago, my battalion had to go on a two week field exercise. We are a support battalion so we rarely go to the field. Rumor was that we were only going because the battalion commander hadn't gone to the field in his three years at the unit and he needed it for a bullet point on his OER (officer evaluation report). Generally, a field exercise would be planned months in advance, but this goat rodeo was thrown together in two weeks. All this officer and senior non-commissioned officer incompetence rolls down on lower enlisted.

Other points:

You will be subjected to an endless and rigorous program of politically correct indoctrination which may well break your will to live completely.

The wars are winding down and the Army is settling into a garrison life of grinding boredom.

Army girls are plain at best, butch dykes at worst and every post is a big sausagefest.

[Sp5]

There's a reason why they filmed service comedies like Gomer Pyle, Mr. Roberts, Ensign Pulver, McHale's Navy, Sgt. Bilko, Stripes, Buffalo Soldiers, why Beetle Bailey and Sad Sack survive.

The military is fouled up, no doubt about it. But you enjoy the bennies, like staying in a nice-but-cheap hotel on a base, or flying to Europe for $10 on an Air Force cargo plane.

[PoosyWrecker]

(11-12-2013 05:20 AM)Sp5 Wrote:  

flying to Europe for $10 on an Air Force cargo plane.

Could you give some details on this? I heard about guys going to Germany from the East Coast every month for free on Space A

[Checkmat]

(11-13-2013 10:05 PM)PoosyWrecker Wrote:  

(11-12-2013 05:20 AM)Sp5 Wrote:  

flying to Europe for $10 on an Air Force cargo plane.

Could you give some details on this? I heard about guys going to Germany from the East Coast every month for free on Space A

I haven't flown space-A personally but heard second hand how it operates. Others who have might chime in.

There are air cargo flights that leave from Dover and JB McGuire on a pretty regular basis that go overseas. They're called "Reach" flights because they're part of Air Mobility Command and their motto is "Air Power for Global Reach". "Reach" any part of the globe.

They're usually C-17s or C-5s but C-130s I think fly them sometimes too. Basically "space-available" means that you can sign up to be put on a waiting list. There's a priority/seniority method to who gets to the top of the list. Officers and people flying on orders/active duty get highest priority and spouses/reservists/retirees are lower on the list.

Crowded space-A flight:


If there is air cargo space available in the hold of the aircraft you get a slot. You sit in a jump seat with all the cargo and fly for free to whatever country they're going to. The process is always subject to the flight getting cancelled/delayed/you getting bumped for higher priority personnel etc. So it's very iffy but can be done.

I just put up my data sheet on the Air Force lifestyle that has more general info on stuff like this. http://www.rooshvforum.network/thread-29991.html

[Sp5]

(11-13-2013 10:05 PM)PoosyWrecker Wrote:  

(11-12-2013 05:20 AM)Sp5 Wrote:  

flying to Europe for $10 on an Air Force cargo plane.

Could you give some details on this? I heard about guys going to Germany from the East Coast every month for free on Space A

To follow up on what Checkmat wrote, you can fly when you are on leave or retired, in order of your "category" or preference. For example, active duty emergency leave and on orders go first, retired generally go last. Officers do NOT get priority.

C-5s have a 75 passenger seating compartment at the top of the fuselage, so bases where they fly out of are the best bet - Dover, Westover, Travis.

If the plane has a full load of if there is hazmat onboard, there will be no seats.

The only way to approach it is to have time and no expectations. And money to pay your way back.

This website has some information: http://www.spacea.net/

[Cobra]

I came across this as I was reminiscing about my days in the Navy. Cool thread.

I was in for 4 years active; sailed around the Mediterranean sea. Did another 4 years with the Seabees in the active reserves.

My thoughts are this.

The pros and cons can weigh heavily on your background. That being said, people also need to consider the pros and cons in terms of their impact to your life AFTER the military, which is a whole different ballgame, regardless of background.

The People It May Not Benefit
If you are from a well off family, it may teach you some discipline and appreciation for the fellow man (especially get to know some “poorer” folk), not to mention teamwork. However, with lots of resources already at your disposal, you have other choices, AND the dough to make them a reality. So think about why you would take a route that's going to hold you back more than help you succeed. I call it a net loss.

The other category includes the guys that are well regarded in their peer group (e.g. wrestling team, football team) who go in with the mindset that the military can be an extension of a lifestyle they experienced in that group and there will be a significant career progression for them in a small time frame. My take is that these guys already have the social ability to succeed without a structure in place. The military structure just pulls them back since it’s highly rigid and as the posters mentioned above, once practiced and perfected presents a general ease of life that makes you lazy. There are plenty of opportunities within the military for these guys (e.g. Special Forces) but a lot of them choose the easier lifestyle instead being in a regular unit.

Remember the military breaks you down and builds you up IN THEIR OWN WAY. Your previous background will not help you make significant gains over someone next to you that is just as specifically trained. It’s not about who you are, it’s about HOW YOU’RE TRAINED.

The People It Will Benefit
If you have social issues, for example can't carry a conversation, don't know how to stand up for yourself, English is not your first language etc. etc., it can be great. I probably fit into more than one of these categories easy.

Also, if you come from a “culturally” distinct and rigid structure, especially non-western, it could help significantly. Asian and Indian guys are a good example of this group as we tend to be slave to the culture more often than not, which can result in the lack of social achievements, including bangs. Being in the military with lots of diversity around you can change that quick and help you find yourself in the process!

Let me delve deeper. First of all you meet a lot of people from ALL walks of life. You get access to these people all at once at a lot of commands. In tense situations, you even get so close that you find similarities and respect differences. The civilian world does not have enough situations like this generally provide you this.

You get social skills. I was scared to talk to people, let alone girls. That changed starting in boot camp, as I was forced to do it. For example, I got bullied but this time I started standing up for myself rather than put my head down and walk away safely. So truth is, it worked out great for me. I also got lucky enough to be on one of the only ships in the Navy with girls. So I got some practice there to. I am by no means great at it but it was a start.

Also, if you don’t come from a lot of money, and actually want to go to college or a trade school so you don’t have to sell crack to a 16 year old, it can be great.

I also have NO college debt. I used the GI bill to get an education that gave me a good career in terms of what society considers a good career. BUT, I could have used that money to gain a lot of other skills as well.

After The Military
Truth is, you start to see how easy you had it in the military once you get out. Examples: your food was served to you, you were told how to dress, and you were told how to work out, not to mention told how to do your job.

When you get out no one is going to TELL YOU SHIT. You figure it out on your own. That’s not easy at least in the first few years. Actually, the longer you have served, keep adding to the “few” years. Lots of guys that get “surprised” by this end up back at their mom’s. I still know a few cats in their prime that embody this, unfortunately.

It also helps if you don't go back to the same life you left (see the movie "Dead Presidents"). You left for a reason; is there REALLY a good reason to go back other than absolute necessity? This ends up being the most seriously overlooked considerations from guys that I know, including myself.

I pulled myself out of the post-military barbed wire, but I also wasn’t in a combat zone rescuing people from somali pirates and getting my head fucked with. That would have definitely resulted in a whole lot more unwinding.

This is all the basic truth but honestly it’s a topic I could get real specific about and write about for days. I'll stop here for now.