[Nascimento]

I've had this post in mind for a while.

This is a culmination of observations I have made over a good estimate of 40-60 club nights since I started actively doing night game. This is the hardest I've thought about game since I became involved in it. This is a long post, I'd appreciate if you could bear with me on this one, the key points are in bold in case you're just looking to skim first and form an initial impression.

Over the course all these nights out this year I've noticed a similar trend. Girls go out at night and are satisfied by either fun, or result. Men on the other hand, aim for the result, but can enjoy the fun as well. The focus of this post will be my personal theory on the progression of a man's night game as he ages. I have made these conclusions so far mainly after my own progress, and having been out consistently with some quality guys of different ages. Also from following the progress of members on RVF and the game community in general. I have been 100% sober on at least 90% of these nights, since most of my game is sober game, allowing me to make clear and accurate observations.

First, I want to give my personal definition of fun and result that I will refer to.

Fun for a man's perspective is approaching attractive girls and finding them receptive, making them smile and visibly adding to their fun and enjoyment, dancing and spinning and picking girls up, brief and intense make outs, and so forth. Also includes things you do for self-amusement and screwing around with your buddies.

Result is a pull. Not necessarily a bang, as maybe you pulled a girl home or went to her house and weren't able to get past resistance. A bang is obviously the result you aim for and are satisfied with.

Since the main intent of night game is to get same night lays, I am not considering number closes as a result.

I am finding it difficult to get one of my points across directly, but if I were to try and summarize it in a sentence: To what extent should you enjoy and feel satisfaction from night game due to fun and not results?

This will be different for the younger guys such as myself, so I feel this is a question younger guys might encounter, and this is a question the older and more experienced guys might be able to shed light to.

It's important to note this process I run through is heavily focused on dance floor game I've internalized from different people (Samseau's guide has been instrumental). To be specific, the 'night game' I am referring to here is including but not exclusive to dance floor game. The focus here is on higher energy night game environments, which we know is the typical spot that the young, energetic girls we love tend to gather in high numbers on nights out.



For example purposes, here is how my typical night plays out:
- Arrive at club, either early or just before peak time. Enjoy the music and talk with one or two buddies I am out with.
- Once dancing starts and dance floor starts to get busy, I make my way and break off dancing and approach girls. At first it is usually girls that are receptive to me, such as giving me looks
- Dance with cute girl, spin her pick her up make her laugh, go for make out (if not completed just reattempt process 10 seconds later by approaching another cute girl)
- Once makeout, just pace it, play with tension, keep dancing varied, make out a bit more and try and physically escalate (at this point friends may intervene and I lose bang prospects)
- If friends didn't intervene or if I succeeded in keeping her with me, I start to think about a pull. Exchange some small talk, such as names, but nothing much. Comfort isn't as necessary in night game as emotional engagement and arousal, I find. Consider logistics.
- Try a pull. If not successful, start with another approach.


This is a cycle that plays out every single time at clubs for me. And although it's mentally and physically draining, its a hell lot of fun. Although I have the end goal in mind (the pull), the process itself is extremely exciting.

My buddy describes this process as giving value to girls. I've learned a lot from him and he's had much more success than me in terms of fun and results due to longer exposure and hard-earned game. He enjoys the process as well because you are essentially becoming a part of the girl's fantasy. You are adding to her night.

All those other chumps at the club cannot compete with you. You are able to push her emotional buttons. Mainly through dance game and high energy.

How do we give value to these girls? It's literally insane how much fun we give to these girls by bringing them into our realities. It's evident they have never (in most cases) been taken on such an experience before. They scream, shout, smile, and get aroused. It's important to note the focus of my approaches are girls 18-low 20's, so generally college girls, who although get lots of male attention at parties and everywhere on campus, lack quality and alpha attention at clubs. I'm making this statement of course based on the fact most guys in the clubs are chodes. Whenever I look around in the packed club crowd and I see a girl towering above everyone else, being spun in the air, I search through and find out it's my cousin or buddy that is picking her up. We give value to these girls by taking them on the emotional roller coasters they desire. For sharing that feminine energy and their sexual attractiveness with us, we give back the alpha attention and exciting attitude they crave.

Girls enjoy the night for what occurs. A fun dance with an attractive guy, catching up with her friends and getting drunk together and not meeting any guys, singing out loud and showing off her sexuality, sex with an alpha guy. From what I can see, these girls are almost never going out primarily to find someone to fuck. It 'just happens' as they like to say it, or the hamster if you will.



Furthermore, here is where I believe there is a distinction between young guys and older, more experienced guys in the game. For example purposes, young guys being around 25 or younger, older guys around 25 or greater.

Young guys have insane amounts of energy, and are able to approach in insane numbers. Young guys look for, and get satisfaction and validation from attracting and making out with girls in the club. Although we obviously want to take the girls home and have sex, we are satisfied enough by making out with that 5'7 blonde in heels with a tight blue dress, long, thin legs and firm ass.

Older guys, don't approach as much. They have less energy and tolerance for attitude. They don't waste time looking to add fun to a girl's night, although they enjoy it, they won't go out of their way to do it like young guys might. Despite this, their pull rate is much higher, and is usually higher quality girls than the ones young guys do pull, when they pull. They are more accurate, and precise due to tighter game. Girls are more strongly attracted and aroused by them.

They have a hunch and know how to better approach situations and pick out the most receptive situations. They waste less energy in the approaches they actually do, with higher likelihood of converting. It's not that older guys don't get satisfaction or validation from getting just make outs from cute girls, it's that they've done that enough in their younger days that the thrill of it is not the same. They would rather just cut to the chase and aim solely for the bang.

This is considering of course, guys with game. There's no use comparing an older guy who has never cold approached in his life to a young guy who does approach, because it's obvious who has the edge.

I guess an extension of the point I am trying to make here is that older guys with game will always do better than younger guys with game, in a night club game scenario.

Now comparing how guys see nights out to girls, it's going to be very different. Older guys, although they can have fun on nights out, primarily go for the result. The bang. They are much better than younger guys at succeeding, but they might not enjoy the night as much if they do not get a bang as a young guy would enjoy the night.

Young guys can enjoy the night regardless. But to a certain extent.

As we all know, game isn't consistent. You can pull 3 new girls over a long weekend and get 3 new notches but then suddenly go months without a new bang.

To what extent can young guys rely on fun, rather than result? This is a question I ask myself at a time of 'game inconsistency'.

It's no doubt I can have an insane amount of fun, but at times I wonder how much it's worth it when the result can be hard to come by. The hardest part of it all is the mental fatigue. High approach numbers, high rejection rates, lots of make outs that don't convert to anything can take it's toll on you. Older guys might not get worn out as much mentally as young guys. They will go out less and approach less, and pull more.

You can argue that overtime this builds core confidence. A few years of consistent night game grinding by a young guy will yield thousands of approaches, hundreds of make outs, and anywhere from very few to dozens of bangs. It is however a draining process.

But maybe it is an essential one.

Maybe it's the answer to why older guys are so accurate with their approaches? They have less energy and are not willing to waste time trying to make out with all the girls in the club like a young guy (as that is child's play to them), but they have competence and much higher results than a younger guy, due to tighter game resulting from all that time they spent grinding their skills.

Is the answer as a young guy to just enjoy the fun times and not worry too much about how often the result times come? With the goal being that one day you will have the competence to produce the results with higher consistency, and you have the option to have fun while you're at it too.

This is my longest and most thought out post yet on this forum. I'm looking to see if there are other young guys that share my perspective, but mainly to hear the thoughts and opinions of the veterans; the guy's that have been in the game for many years, and have done the grind and have game accolades to show for as a result.

[Nomad77]

I am an "older guy" and I basically operate in two modes. My general purpose mode is basically just having fun and being social and running lite game. If I feel more energetic I might dance more. If I am feeling more laid back I may just sit back and chill. BUT what I am always looking for is that hook or connection. It's that moment when you meet a girl or are interacting with her and you just know you are in - she's hooked. Once this happens I switch modes and become focused on just that girl, providing I find her attractive enough. I drop out of my general game mode and go into what I term sniper mode. This can also happen when I see a girl I find very attractive. Another way to look at it, is that I use regular game/social mode to "filter" girls and sniper mode for the kill.

What I do not do is entertain girls which is what I see a lot of guys doing. There is a fine line between inviting a girl to join you in having a good time and entertaining her. Basically, anytime you feel you are trying too much you are already entertaining them. Sure, the girl will be enjoying herself and having a good time, but you will also have put yourself in chump territory from the start.

A lot of young guys also confuse allowing and contribution from a girl. A girl "allowing" you to talk to her, dance with her, kiss her, feel her up, whatever is just that: she is allowing something to happen because she finds it "entertaining." BUT until a girl starts to actively contribute to an interaction it doesn't mean anything. When she starts initiating conversation and physical contact when she starts to starts to actively contribute to the interaction then and only then does it mean something. Because, then and only then, does she become vested in the interaction. This is why a lot of guys get confused when after spending the whole night "entertaining" a girl that is just allowing it she just leaves with her friends and he's standing there going what? (You can even have sex with a girl that is just allowing it. Then she leaves and you never see her again. Sex is just another level of entertaining for many American girls today.)

PS And Game, to a large extent, is just another form of entertainment.

[OGNorCal707]

Thoughtful post, I think you are on point on a lot of insights, but maybe over simplifying or generalizing on a lot of stuff as well. A lot of this stuff boils down to the individual player, where they are at in their lives, and what they are "into." It seems that a lot of older cats start to shift away from the nightlife scene or at least the "club" scene and prefer to run day game, or will maybe hit more low key chill bars or lounges when they do hit nightlife.

To address a few points you make, I think having fun when going out is key, but I will admit that when I go out it's often to hunt for pussy, so hooking up is part of that fun. What's important though is to maintain a level of "non-attachment" so you don't slip into a funk where you get angry or depressed if the ladies aren't feeling you on that particular night.

Personally it's hard for me to have fun if I roll out solo dolo and am not having any success out there, because I'm not the most socially outgoing guy, I'm not going to make a bunch of random guy friends or friends with bartenders and bouncers, I'm there to pick up chicks and if I don't pick up then I didn't accomplish what I wanted to do.

Also, I hear what you're saying about make outs as a young guy, making out with chicks can be fun, but once you get to a certain age and skill level, make outs become pretty lame, because often times they are just a tease and don't lead to a bang. I can get a make out just about every night I go out, but yet the vast majority of those nights I don't get laid. When you're a young cat your game is still improving, so a make out is more exciting and gratifying, because you're coming from a place where you aren't used to doing that, and there is a bit of excitement and rush that comes with it. Once you're in your late 20's and have been into game for a while, make outs aren't going to provide much satisfaction and for me I'm at a point where they get me more frustrated than anything.

One thing that I don't really follow you on or agree with is "providing women value" or "showing them a good time", sure it's like the 80's song says "girls just wanna have fun, oh girls just wanna have fun...." That's a fact, if you're boring and lame they aren't going to have fun or want to hang out with you, party with you, or leave the venue with you... But, I could care less if I "provide value to them", I think the distinction to be made is that you are of high value, and due to your high value they benefit from interacting with you. At the end of the night though, I could care less whether I give them value or show them a good time, what matters is that I get the pull or at least walk away with a solid prospect that could lead to a bang down the road.

Having fun and not giving a fuck is pretty essential, but I find this becomes increasingly hard to do once you're on a dry streak. When you have a fuck buddy (s) it's a lot easier to just chill and have fun and not sweat the pussy, but once you are on a dry spell that comes to dominate your thinking and therefore, you become like a starving hunter in the winter trying to stalk prey, you have a one track mind, and it can be hard to just "have fun" without the goal of sinking your dick at the end of the night.

Do older guys always have better game then younger guys? No. Will a older guy always out pull a younger guy? Also no, there are just too many variables at stake. One thing older players have is experience, and experience is very important, experience is the best teacher, so in a way older guys do tend to have better game than younger guys, assuming that they've been into it for a while. The longer you spend doing this shit the more intuitive you become, the more you've learned from your mistakes, the more you are able to read signals, know what moves to make at what times, etc.

A lot of this stuff you can read and learn about, but a lot of it you just got to go out there and experience. If you stick with the game and keep going out, you will slowly improve over time, your progress might jump leaps and bounds at times, or you might stagnate and hit a plateau, other times it might seem like you are moving backwards, but as long as you stick with it you will always move forwards in the long run.

So older cats will be more seasoned, more experienced, and be more apt to go for the kill, but it's all part of the process. One of the biggest difference between older cats and younger is that older cats start to burn out on the nightlife scene, some guys have a lot longer longevity than others, but I'd say most start to slow down big time in their early to mid 30's. For me I was never a hardcore partier or nightlife guy, but I'd say it started to hit me pretty early at about 27, (I'm 29 right now). I have a hard time dealing with hangovers, and hate feeling like shit the next day, and struggling to get shit done. I also know that drinking and staying up late wrecks your immune system and isn't good for long term health and longevity. Therefore I go out 2 nights a week at the most. It's not ideal for picking up women, and since I don't do day game, I don't notch up my belt nearly as much as I'd like to, or as much as a lot of the guys on the forum.

Anyways that's my 2 cents, let me know if you have any further questions.

[OGNorCal707]

(11-02-2013 11:56 AM)Nomad77 Wrote:  

A lot of young guys also confuse allowing and contribution from a girl. A girl "allowing" you to talk to her, dance with her, kiss her, feel her up, whatever is just that: she is allowing something to happen because she finds it "entertaining." BUT until a girl starts to actively contribute to an interaction it doesn't mean anything. When she starts initiating conversation and physical contact when she starts to starts to actively contribute to the interaction then and only then does it mean something. Because, then and only then, does she become vested in the interaction. This is why a lot of guys get confused when after spending the whole night "entertaining" a girl that is just allowing it she just leaves with her friends and he's standing there going what? (You can even have sex with a girl that is just allowing it. Then she leaves and you never see her again. Sex is just another level of entertaining for many American girls today.)

Bingo. Excellent point here Nomad, very well put, this is something that I think a lot of us need to realize, and even I myself am just really starting to realize is a huge critical factor between the girls that I end up talking to, kissing, and getting phone numbers from, compared to the ones that I actually end up bringing home and fucking.

I did a post a while ago about "yellow light girls" if any of you read it, and that's really the difference between "yellow lights" and "green lights", how much does the girl reciprocate and contribute to the interaction. Plenty of girls will let me touch them, flirt with them, maybe even kiss them, but if they aren't contributing, then I'm most likely not getting anywhere. After 4 years in the game, I am just now realizing how critical this is.

[Nomad77]

OGNorCal707 Is correct, your personality plays a big part or it should. (I know this is sort of off topic but I think it's worth repeating.) The more you align your actions and life with your personality (who you really are) the happier you will be. There are some guys out there that are most happy when they are kissing girls ass and being mistreated by them. I myself have never been a banger (was never interested in banging a lot of girls). My thing is getting high quality girls. I would rather get one high quality girl per month than 10 so-so girls. That's what makes me happy BUT there are guys out there that are exactly the opposite.

One of the biggest mistakes I have made in my life was trying to live my life based on OTHER people's definition of what should make you happy. Do what truly makes you happy and fuck what other people think. They are not you and it's not their life.

[Nascimento]

I also think there is a fine line for entertaining girls. The fun I am describing is a process where both you and the girl get enjoyment. It's a way of entertaining them and yourself. Although I don't consciously think I do it, I might have to keep an eye for the times I might go out of my way to give 'fun' to these girls though. Sometimes they might not be reciprocating although they are having fun with me.

My best interactions on a night are always the ones where I feel there is an equal amount of fun exchanged between myself and the girl. The nights where both you and the girl engage each other, when there is tension and arousal. The interactions you should aim for are ones where there is equal tension between both of you and she reciprocates (such as moves closer during a dance, usually it's the guy that is always moving closer).

A potential area of growth for me will be exactly how the girls are receptive to me. Like you guys mentioned, her kissing you and dancing with you doesn't mean a strong connection and engagement. She might just find you attractive or be entertaining herself. This makes me think that by becoming more receptive to and working harder to develop a connection with the girl (whether its a combination of attraction, engagement, and the fact she is reciprocating), I will be able to have more fun and pull more from nights out.

Nomad, OG, it's evident you guys have more experience by the fact you aren't going to tolerate 'giving value' to girls. It's almost like I described, once you are past the initial young player phase, things such as looking to make the girl's night in the club and attracting them just for the hell of it seems mundane.

It obviously ties to older guys operating in a higher frame than younger guys. It's not to say young guys can't have a strong frame, it's that older guys will naturally build that higher frame and higher sense of inner value for themselves.. Due to age factor, grinding in the game overtime and gaining experience, etc.

Maybe young guys can get such high satisfaction from things older guys have no more interest in because they just started experiencing girls. For myself, literally having no experience with girls just over a year ago and now being able to do all these things gives me a huge high. Inevitably as I age making out and hopping from girl to girl at the club will get old and I will generally have a larger focus on the bang and building strong prospects rather 'firing like a loose cannon' in the club.

Maybe this is a stage that has to be overcome. Young guys bask in the short term satisfaction nights out produce with an odd and more satisfying pull every now and then. Older guys planted the seeds in their younger years and developed a strong frame and the core skills to efficient attract and connect with girls, so in turn they are able to pull with higher consistency.

[Therapsid]

(11-02-2013 02:46 PM)Nascimento Wrote:  

Maybe young guys can get such high satisfaction from things older guys have no more interest in because they just started experiencing girls. For myself, literally having no experience with girls just over a year ago and now being able to do all these things gives me a huge high. Inevitably as I age making out and hopping from girl to girl at the club will get old and I will have a larger focus on the bang and building strong prospects rather 'firing like a loose cannon' in the club.

Yeah, you make some perceptive points.

Of course, it's not just a matter of young versus old but also new versus experienced.

I have zero interest making a girl's night outside the context of either banging her a few hours later or making solid plans for the near future.

At this point, if I'm entertaining the girl, i.e. "giving value", too much and I can tell she's not down to fuck that night, I cut it off, get her number and move on.

Those kind of girls have a high response rate anyway. You'll be the highlight of their night without having to spend your entire night with them. Move on and find a girl who's horny and ready to bounce.

[Nomad77]

It's perfectly all right. Life is a journey, enjoy it. There's no need to rush, getting older is a something that's guaranteed to everyone I personally do not entertain American girls because I think they are just too spoiled and have this entitled attitude. I am a lot more willing to entertain girls outside of America because I think they are more deserving of it and they reciprocate. In America, girls expect to be entertained. They expect that guys will dance to their drums and do whatever they feel like including when they want sex. And by cratering to that expectation you only make things worse Why are American women the way they are? Because the men here not only allow it, they encourage it by meeting and exceeding their demanding attitudes.

[XXL]

(11-01-2013 07:29 PM)Nascimento Wrote:  

Maybe it's the answer to why older guys are so accurate with their approaches? They have less energy and are not willing to waste time trying to make out with all the girls in the club like a young guy (as that is child's play to them), but they have competence and much higher results than a younger guy, due to tighter game resulting from all that time they spent grinding their skills.

Sort of.

Basically more experienced guys see the big picture and can look past all the flashy reactions cause they know what actually brings results. While young cats get super excited to be fooling around and seeing such positive reactions from girls so it pumps them up which leads to more fun which leads to more reactions etc etc and it's all fine until they get left behind later or get flaked on again and again.

(11-01-2013 07:29 PM)Nascimento Wrote:  

Is the answer as a young guy to just enjoy the fun times and not worry too much about how often the result times come? With the goal being that one day you will have the competence to produce the results with higher consistency, and you have the option to have fun while you're at it too.

In the end it all comes down to what you want. I suggest to balance it out. 2 crazy night outs for pure fun. 2 toned down night outs for pulling. By toned down night I mean less energetic type of fun and stretched out over longer period of time. Look...

Let's use drug dealing as a metaphor, drugs = fun. Your current version of fun is giving girls all your supply of dope at once in short period of time. But that makes them overdose and die. However you could give them same amount of dope strategically over longer period in time. So you give them fair dose at first to get them hooked and then systematically giving them small doses frequently to keep them addicted and fucking around by holding back at times to make them want more or by giving and taking away like an asshole. This way you can keep them hooked longer and keep them alive. They still want more so you offer an after party where you can give them more.

[R Smoov]

I'm at the young guy stage when it comes to going out. And there's always a upward to downward cycle each time I go out. I'm always excited to go out, but then I always come back feeling emotionally wounded at my weekend warrior battles.


But I do believe that when I'm outside of school and I go to a party outside, its way more fun. People notice you a lot more when you're having fun dancing on your own. And chicks attention whore a bit less. So I will keep up this night game suffering until i get to the greener grass.

I could rationalize this topic for years, but fuck that. I finished my 2nd race and I am ready to go!

Popped a Advil I'm chillin woo!

[EinsteinsLaundry]

This relates to the r and K strategies we see in the wild.

In nature, we see organisms that reproduce using an "r" strategy, where their resources are spent in producing offspring, and not nurturing them. This strategy is seen in bugs, fish, and plants, who lay many eggs or disperse many seeds. A lot may die, but if a few survive, then it is a success in the books.

In contrast, a "K" strategist spends more resources in the development of their offspring, and in turn, increasing the offspring's chance of survival. This strategy is seen in humans, and most mammals. Only a few offspring are produced, but they are much more likely to survive.

The same strategies can be applied to seduction techniques. I have a certain amount of resources I can consume on any given night. I can use the r strategy and approach 40-50 girls in a night, and if 2 of those approaches prove to be "successful" down the road, then it works. Little investment in each interaction, more rejections as well.
I can also use a K strategy, and invest more time and resources into the interactions I find fitting. I may miss out on some girls I find attractive, but the chances of "succeeding" in the interactions I invested in are much higher.

On a side note: I would like to argue that giving value to a girl or an interaction is not necessarily the same as "entertaining" them.

[paninaro]

I know it's kind of chick crack, but the older man's game reminds me of a storyline on Sex in the City. Sarah Jessica Parker (Carrie) and Mihhail Baryshnikov (I think his character's name was Alexander).

He was in his 50's, and she in her 30's. Watch the episodes when they meet and go on their first date or two. IMO, it's excellent older man game. He's cool, collected, and not trying to impress her.. but he makes just the right move at just the right time.

I watched it years ago, but two scenes I remember specifically. One is when they're in a restaurant and she's going on and on. He doesn't talk much, but his comments are always well timed and right on. Then the one where he dances with her outside the opera or theater or whatever. A+ game.

The show is syndicated so it comes on all the time. Any episode with the Alexander character is a great study in older man's game.

To get back to your overall question -- it's simply about experience. Also, I'd say a more experienced guy will focus more on him having a good time, and game secondarily. That level of poise and confidence can lead to the second anyway.

[rudebwoy]

As a "old" guy I go out once in awhile to catch up with my mates and get a few laughs.

Gone are the days were I would go out to hear great music or meet really interesting people. Most places the DJ will not know what he is doing and the music today is lame. Back in the day, they would actually play slow songs in a club and you got to rub up against a girl for a few songs.

Gone are the days when you got a phone number it actually meant something, it was never the wrong number and it would be her home number. I have seen guys almost cry from losing that piece of paper with her number on it. When you called she would more than likely be home to answer and you would talk to her on the phone.
For some of the "younger" guys this may seem like a foreign concept, but this is what it was like back in the day.

Today the club scene is a different beast!
Girls that go out are looking to have a fun time, which will consist of getting schmucks to buy them drinks, taking group shots for their social network site and leading guys on when they more than likely have a dude at home. I am not saying ALL girls but the majority fall under this category. Let's face it they can do this so easily, the bottle service crap has ruined most clubs. I can't believe so many guys indulge in this and for the most part it is younger guys trying to act like ballers.
Only last week, I saw young dudes pouring "goose" down each other's throat and fist pumping.

I will tend to post up at the bar, maybe talk to the bartender, shooter girl/waitress or select girls that post up beside me at the bar. I may gently grab the hand of a few that walk past, but my game is best described as "sniper" game. If I do meet a nice lady and the conversation is good, I will reward her by buying her a drink.

The main thing about clubs/bars today, like anything else it is a numbers game. Getting a phone number is nice but that is half the battle.

[DVY]

As I have gotten more experienced i dance less.

Dancing is just a hello. I'll dance long enough to get comfortable and bounce the girl outside to talk. Then go back in for dancing, then come out again. Its a time-filler.

Experience brings instinct. i generally know how much the girls likes me. its very obvious. if they like you, you can almost always bounce them somewhere fast (1hr in).

Keys to swooping loads of girls

1) Go out a lot
2) Talk/Dance w/a lot of girls
3) Be forward (not blunt)
4) Tell her that you want to take her to go "_____" (eat, take a nap, afterparty, smoke a J)"