[killongy]

mini hijack if you dont mind.

I lost someone close to me but I never felt depressed but at times the feeling of loneliness lingers like a dull ache in regards to the role that person played in my life.
Shouldn't I be bawling my eyes out or curled up in a foetus position since its only 5 months since the loss....

I wonder if its that I didn't care enough and I would hate to think its because of that.

Normally I hate to go this personal but I ask , is any of this normal?

[OkStudies]

You can't "reframe" your mind to battle depression. You need to get therapy and professional help. There are deep seated psychological issues (mostly stemming from childhood) that you have that need to be worked out systematically.

[kbell]

Depression isn't only sadness emotion wise. Its a lack of energy, high tendency for procrastination, and often emotionally unreactive to things you should be reactive too.

I attend a therapist already. There are other types of therapies besides just studying childhood trauma. I think that may be Freudian style if I remember correctly. And yes you might be able to significantly reduce depression symptoms but its hard work and it actively going against your natural instinct to attack yourself mentally. I suggest reading about CBT before discounting it.

[Biz]

(03-30-2014 12:41 PM)OkStudies Wrote:  

You can't "reframe" your mind to battle depression. You need to get therapy and professional help. There are deep seated psychological issues (mostly stemming from childhood) that you have that need to be worked out systematically.

Iboga / Ayahuasca comes to mind after reading this comment.

[The Lizard of Oz]

(03-30-2014 11:19 AM)killongy Wrote:  

mini hijack if you dont mind.

I lost someone close to me but I never felt depressed but at times the feeling of loneliness lingers like a dull ache in regards to the role that person played in my life.
Shouldn't I be bawling my eyes out or curled up in a foetus position since its only 5 months since the loss....

I wonder if its that I didn't care enough and I would hate to think its because of that.

Normally I hate to go this personal but I ask , is any of this normal?

Worrying about how you "should" feel is just a waste of time. You feel as you do.

Very strong emotion of the kind that causes a grown man to be bawling his eyes out or be curled up in a fetal position is pretty rare -- people think it's more common than it really is because there is so much exaggerated portrayal of it in movies or in text of various kinds. People then see that they are colder and calmer in reality than they imagine they "should" be, and waste untold amounts of time feeling guilt or shame about it.

Young men (as I imagine you are) are naturally pretty selfish, and it would be an affectation to pretend otherwise. It is both a vice and a virtue (a virtue because it's a sign of strength). It is completely futile to worry about it or feel guilty. You should always acknowledge what you actually feel, even if it's nothing, and never try to manufacture feeling where there is none. It will come if and when it comes.

[Vaun]

I got pretty depressed today and happy to find this thread. Mainly over money, but I have suffered from depression since my teen years and gone through some very hard times. I used to pray a lot, and for now I read and sleep a lot more. Friday I went out and drank way too much and basically ruined my weekend. I can see a correlation. Exercise and sunlight have always been key for me. So much so I would work outside. Now I am stuck inside all day. I had a therapist but let her go after about 5 years because the talking just felt like bitch sessions for me, and I was always unsure of her advice, it was always "just go with your feelings, with your gut" No.. sometimes you have to grin and bear it, and tough it out. I want advice like that, but those years did help. I will admit I have a problem with anger, and letting anger ruin relationships and opportunities. I did try Paxil once and it made me not be able to ejaculate, it was weird and I didnt like the feelings so I stopped it. On one hand I agree that persistent issues that have never been dealt with cause us to relapse, but I dont agree with the notion that you cant take care of it on your own, or attempt to while you seek more help.

[kbell]

Definitely pick up the Burns book and do the exercises. You get back what you put into it.

I started Dr Ellis book that Dusty reviewed. I only have read 2 chapters so this is a rough idea. So far it seems like REBT focuses a bit on the words you say to describe yourself. This is not covered in Burns book so its interesting. The A B C system mentioned in chapter 2 was confusing because of all the variables. However I think if I combine the two approaches I might get something that will work for a long time, hopefully as long as needed. He also seems more masculine than Burns. He also downplays the self help aspect as being as good as therapy more than Burns. He says you might need a therapist to really self analyze for some people. So its interesting change of approach so far.

[Dusty]

Yeah, Ellis and his approach is pretty alpha, and Burns is pretty beta.

REBT is also I think more philosophical than CBT and goes more to your core beliefs.

If you're butthurt because a girl didn't return your call, Burns will be more about waiting to get the facts, maybe she's busy, don't jump to conclusions etc. Ellis would be more, fuck it, don't act so needy, too fucking bad but don't let her define your mood, go out and find another one.

And about the language, yes that's a big part of REBT. Ellis was influenced by linguists. Language is an abstraction from reality. Your language becomes your reality, even when it doesn't jibe with the physical world. You might call something "a catastrophe" even when it isn't, but by choosing that word you made it your reality, then your foul mood is caused by that false reality. If you called the same event "a small set back" then you will feel less inflamed dealing with that version of reality, and be better able to cope.

[Dusty]

Burns actually wrote a PUA book of sorts in the 1980s. Called intimate connections. It's hokey and outdated , I'm not recommending it.

It's just interesting some of the advice has been around a long time . He recommends becoming a player to get rid of neediness, by having a lot of pokers in the fire. He recommends a style of conversation with girls we'd call cocky funny and negging, but he calls flirting and teasing.

He also had a section on busting through LMR, but he didn't call it that. Basically being a little pushy when a girl initially says 'no' and don't give up too easy.

He recommends getting over approach anxiety by talking to everyone every where you go.

[kbell]

Did he wear a funny hat? I wish I knew about that book when I was younger. I will have to finish the book before I can determine which is the better approach though. Although they might be complimentary.

I talked to my therapist recently and he recommended checking out books from Dr. Martin Seligman. He does something with positive thinking combined with CBT. And is local too. These too looked interesting but not sure yet which one I want to read after Ellis, which I will try the textbook approach to as well.

http://www.amazon.com/Authentic-Happines...PDKIKX0DER

http://www.amazon.com/Learned-Optimism-C...758&sr=1-2

[The Lizard of Oz]

(03-31-2014 08:49 PM)Vaun Wrote:  

Friday I went out and drank way too much and basically ruined my weekend. I can see a correlation.

Yep -- alcohol is terrible for depressive types. It can depress the hell out of even non-depressive types over time, but for depressives it's deadly.

(03-31-2014 08:49 PM)Vaun Wrote:  

Exercise and sunlight have always been key for me.

Yes, both are key. As far as exercise, intense weightlifting is best, especially squats, deads and strapped pulls that will jack up your androgen levels.

I would strongly consider using bright light from a light box every morning -- it will regularize your sleep and reduce depressive levels. I've posted about this elsewhere on the forum, also feel free to PM me for detailed recommendations.

Separately, it's a good idea to get direct sunlight exposure during the summer months for UV to jack up your natural vitamin D levels. The best way to do this if possible would be sunbathing around noon (optimal UVA/UVB ratios) a few times a week during the summer months. Start gradually, 5 minutes a side to get a base tan, and build up to about 15-20 minutes a side, exposing as much of your body as possible, with no sunscreen.

[kbell]

I think I will pass on the seligman. Wasn't impressed what I read about him. Sounds like too much research and personal anicotes and not enough practical application.

Found this while looking for gratitude journal information. Tons of resources which might come in handy.

http://www.getselfhelp.co.uk/links2.htm

[Moto]

I'll offer something different, that has helped me, and I'll start with a quote from my Kung Fu master (I'm not sure if he is the original author or not):

No one ever finds life worth living. One always has to make it worth living.

You need to find a sense of value outside of validation from women.
Don't expect compassion or sympathy from anyone- I can think of about a billion people who are far more deserving of it, and don't get a bit. Narcissism is far more magnetic, while neediness is utterly repulsive. This is universal and timeless in (fallen) human nature. C'est la vie.

Value works like this- the more you give, the more you get.

There is a short-cut to self-love. No matter how lousy, weak-willed, impotent, and scattered any of us may be (and we all ARE, compared to the perfection that can be attained through grace) God still loves you. So just love God. It's far easier, and more effective in my opinion, than trying to generate self-love through positive psychology mantras. This is not a holier-than-thou sermon, because I guarantee you I am not.

Living for yourself, as you have seen, does not work out, not for anyone in the long run. So live for something greater than yourself. And when girls see that you are on a mission, they find that very attractive.

Back to making life worth living.. Find what you value and start living up to those values. Then you can respect yourself. And when you fall short, as every man does (and if he doesn't then his values have fallen short) you can rest in the bliss of faith in infinite divine mercy. If you make enough money to support yourself, you make meaning for your life by helping others. Volunteer for a cause you believe in. You can do as I did, and dedicate a portion of your life to becoming highly skilled in martial arts, and be ever ready to give your life to save an innocent, more valuable life.

Having a rotation of attractive girls you sleep with, in itself, will not make you happy or give your life meaning. It is more of an effect than a cause.

Find a way you can give value to the world, and given that you are blessed with a functioning brain and body, that should be possible.

Take from this what you can, if anything, and leave the rest.

[DarkKing]

I don't know, I find that feeling good and getting out of depression comes with having success. If you can't pick up girls, then no matter how many times you tell yourself how great you are, you will never be able to get out of depression. I guess it's a vicious cycle of negativity. However if you start getting lucky and getting girls, then the positivity will just pile up on you and you will start riding a good high. That's my experience, but I guess some people are different.

[tarquin]

Gotta tell you, I ran across this topic about a week back and purchased feeling good. I'm really only on chapter 4 or so, but the exercises are helping my mood overall. My darkest days aren't as dark and my average day is better than it used to be.

[Tideride]

Roosh made a good point in one of his blogs about how many ancient non modern people did not have this problem of anxiety and depression. I've heard smart doctors who are natural health enthusiast say chemicals and heavy metals in many consumer goods are the causes of many illnesses. Personally Imdidnt struggle with anxiety until I got a vaccine to get into college-I think vaccines are garbage btw.

Man for me getting outside in sun shine and being deep in the woods on a hike for a few hours improves my mood. Nature is good for the mind.

I have an awful time during the Winter in the mid south (KY-VA-TN) and its not even as bad and gloomy as many places are during the Winter. If you can relocate to a better climate (why Fla and California are so popular) do so. Seasonal depression is real.

Gomtoma natural doctor/alternative medicine.

Websites like natural news help to guide and give more tips
Too.

[kbell]

I attempted mediating the last few weeks almost everyday. I tend to either sit or lie down and try to view my thoughts. I tend to be attached to thoughts and minor sensations in my skin or muscles. I don't think I have made it past 10 minutes yet, but its tends to calm me afterwards somewhat. The rational rebuttals are there but not that frequently yet. My biggest issue is its difficult for me to sit still in one position for extended times. They called it ADHD when younger, but I call it a challenge to overcome now.

[kbell]

I finished A guide to Rational Living several weeks ago. It takes awhile for the main ideas to germinate in my head. There was two ideas that stood out for me, the visualizing bad events, and awfulizing. He mentions awfulizing in almost every chapter. Basically when you awfulize, you describe a situation as being awful and imply that it must not exist. "My coworker hates me, and its awful, I can't stand it!" You can't control your coworker but you can survive someone hating you. It might be inconvenient but not unbearable. Awful is a strong word more suited for becoming paraplegic or becoming a slave to ex-wife. You could still survive in both cases. The other tool of visualizing something that causes awfulizing or cognitive distortions and your supposed to feel the emotions at the time. I can't feel the emotions but I can think of the rational rebuttals to those situations. So its somewhat useful. Perhaps it will become more useful in time as I get better at it.

[Dusty]

(05-23-2014 09:49 PM)kbell Wrote:  

I finished A guide to Rational Living several weeks ago. It takes awhile for the main ideas to germinate in my head. There was two ideas that stood out for me, the visualizing bad events, and awfulizing. He mentions awfulizing in almost every chapter. Basically when you awfulize, you describe a situation as being awful and imply that it must not exist. "My coworker hates me, and its awful, I can't stand it!" You can't control your coworker but you can survive someone hating you. It might be inconvenient but not unbearable. Awful is a strong word more suited for becoming paraplegic or becoming a slave to ex-wife. You could still survive in both cases. The other tool of visualizing something that causes awfulizing or cognitive distortions and your supposed to feel the emotions at the time. I can't feel the emotions but I can think of the rational rebuttals to those situations. So its somewhat useful. Perhaps it will become more useful in time as I get better at it.

Thanks for posting this. It's interesting to get another person's perspective on "Guide." I like your summary of the key takeaways.

Yes, I think Ellis says, and I agree, that a lot of depression and anxiety comes from awfulizing. Or more generally, from exaggerating.

I've found that if I am feeling an overwrought emotion, I am most likely exaggerating.

Even a common topic here- Approach Anxiety- has it's roots in exaggerations. Really, these little girls have no power to do anything truly harmful to us if we stop and think about it. I think it's best to remind yourself of that over and over, because sometimes the rational lessons get forgotten.

[kbell]

I kind of liked the idea of doing written exercises to attack incorrect philosophies, but I don't think he went in enough detail how to do it. I just used his examples but not sure how to come up with my own. Burns Journal was much more detail even though the basics were only to pages, but it was far easier to understand. Ellis journal is only describe on about 3 pages and to me wasn't as well developed.

AA definitely has roots there. I will have to try repeating that in my head when hitting on one next time. She can't destroy you, at most making you slightly uncomfortable if you allow her in mentally.

[The Lizard of Oz]

kbell, like you said, it takes a while for these ideas to germinate -- even more than just a few weeks.

The ideas of REBT/CBT have this character, that they seem deceptively simple and even obvious when presented, and yet we somehow keep forgetting them and living and thinking their opposite as soon as we look away. It takes a good deal of rumination on these ideas and a good deal of applying them to all sorts of situations and parts of life before they truly become anything like second nature.

There is a good illustration here of the difference between recognition and understanding. It is easy enough to recognize the validity of the ideas, but it takes time, work, and practice to gain a real deep understanding of them. And this can be paradoxically harder for more intelligent people, since they find recognition so easy that they feel they can skip all the steps -- and then never gain any understanding or derive any real benefit.

In your case, I think these ideas have started to really influence you in a serious way but it takes a while for them to gradually deepen and take root. So keep reflecting on them and applying them to various situations, and give it time.

[Dusty]

(05-23-2014 10:43 PM)The Lizard of Oz Wrote:  

kbell, like you said, it takes a while for these ideas to germinate -- even more than just a few weeks.

The ideas of REBT/CBT have this character, that they seem deceptively simple and even obvious when presented, and yet we somehow keep forgetting them and living and thinking their opposite as soon as we look away. It takes a good deal of rumination on these ideas and a good deal of applying them to all sorts of situations and parts of life before they truly become anything like second nature.

There is a good illustration here of the difference between recognition and understanding. It is easy enough to recognize the validity of the ideas, but it takes time, work, and practice to gain a real deep understanding of them. And this can be paradoxically harder for more intelligent people, since they find recognition so easy that they feel they can skip all the steps -- and then never gain any understanding or derive any real benefit.

In your case, I think these ideas have started to really influence you in a serious way but it takes a while for them to gradually deepen and take root. So keep reflecting on them and applying them to various situations, and give it time.

These are very good points Lizard.

The reason we keep falling back on our old irrational thoughts that undermine us is because of habit. We have been rehearsing these thoughts over and over our whole life, so we have kind of brainwashed ourselves. We believe this stuff because it takes no effort, and its just habit.

It takes a long time to break old habits and create new ones. Creating new habits takes effort.

I used REBT to manage a very stressful work situation a few years ago. One thing I did was write some of my rational thoughts on index cards which I kept in my pocket. I'd look at these reminders a few times day. It helped to reinforce the message.

I like what you say about going from recognizing rational ideas versus deeply understanding them. Ellis would say that taking action is one of the best ways to implant your rational thoughts in your core. It's hard to keep believing something irrational when you prove it over and over with action that contradicts the irrational belief.

[kbell]

I have been reading the Mindfullness book which is a mediation book combined with cognitive therapy. http://www.amazon.com/Mindfulness-Eight-...ndfullness So far its been helpful for helping with controlling responses to negative thoughts. You basically do a meditation a day (10-30 minutes) for 8 weeks. Although I plan on keeping with the program indefinitely. One of the meditations you would first do a breathing style mediation than go into one where you visualize negative problems. This is quite similar to Albert Ellis suggestion of visualizing the negative situations, but instead of disputing them you observe you physically reactions in the body to them. This has an affect of showing you that those pain are almost like like thoughts and they tend to dissipate after awhile. This has a calming affect on me. This can be done while awake as well, which helps to reduce some fear. My thoughts aren't always rational so a debate in my head doesn't always work at soothing my mind.

I believe Dusty might have more to say about this book. I'm on mediation 6 of the 8 in the book. Some of the mediation seem a little silly though. Focusing on awareness while doing half-ass stretches does make much sense. And the new one where you repeat this mantra about kindness to one self I don't quite get how it works yet.

Also it seems that If I tend to be overly critical of what someone else does, its often a projection of my than mental anguish on others. Is this what happens when posters rant about whatever on the forum?

I also plan on getting one of those sunbox jr. I think they might help with making me less groggy in the morning and more tired at night. The lighting is starting to get worse and my mood tends to get worse towards the winter. I also have been training new employees and that tends to stress me out as well.

[Dusty]

Yes I pm'd kbell about the mindfulness book. I'm on chapter four and have been writing a review. I'll drop the review in RVF when I am done.

I was skeptical, but so far I like this mindfulness stuff. It's kind of a big relief to forget about all your troubles and problems because you are focused on something innocuous - your breathing. That's the whole point. Give your mind a short vacation from all the chatter swirling around in your head.

We know from cbt and rebt your irritable moods comes from your thoughts. When your thoughts are exclusively focused on your breathing, you have no irrational thoughts for that time, and you feel peaceful and stress free. Then it has a lingering effect when you are done.

[kbell]

I think the mind needs breaks from all information except basic awareness often. The book actually suggest doing the exercises twice a day along with a 3 minute mini mediation. I will have to add the mini mediation. I don't quite have time for 2 30 minute meditations a day. There are some contradictory element with CBT. Such as that when you debate your mind according to the author it tends to dredge up other negative thoughts, sort of like googles suggestions on searches. Although allowing CBT thoughts in mediation is an interesting experience I may do more often. Mediation is sort of like a blank canvas, where you don't have much control over the paint. Although you can direct the flow to a degree.