[metalheadatheart]

(10-07-2013 07:40 PM)reaper23 Wrote:  

(10-07-2013 04:11 PM)MrXY Wrote:  

(10-06-2013 09:17 PM)metalheadatheart Wrote:  

Many great comments.

Just to clarify, I was mainly talking about strength gains, although I have gained visually in the same time frame.

I definitely agree about focusing on good form. Nothing like an injury to talk you out of working out.

My workout week looks something like this:

Monday & Friday - heavy kettlebell swings, for time or until my grip gives out (I've recently upgraded to a 70lb kb). Then either bench/pistol squat ladders (sets of 2-3-5, usually 3 or 4 cycles) or barbell side press and kb goblet squats

Wednesday- KB snatches, 6 sets of 10 per hand, then goblet squats

Simple, but effective. KB snatches are what the Secret Service uses for conditioning. If you haven't tried it, I recommend it.

I usually add heavy farmer carries, depending on whether I'm strapped for time. I haven't deadlifted in a while because I pulled a muscle in my back, but the kb snatches fill in for this to an extent.

I never use the machines. Free weights all the way.

No wonder you aren't making the gains you want-that's a terrible program. It looks like the crap fitness magazines put out as the latest "amazing workout" or douchy personal trainers have cougar housewives do. At best, it's good for a a variation workout occasionally once someone already has built a good base of muscle

Get on Starting Strength or a good 5X5 program like the Stronglifts one, and add some auxiliary exercises such as dips, pullups, and curls

there is so much good information available even on this website, which isn't about strength and conditioning, that its just too hard to take the time to try and set someone right that clearly is unwilling to listen to others or do the research.

bench and pistols are the only thing in there worth a shit for size and strength.

kb snatches are fun, they are grueling and they work the shit out of your conditioning - but they wont make you much stronger nor bigger

The entire point of my post was that I have in fact made gains, and that people who say they see nothing after 6 weeks are doing something wrong.

I disagree with you about kettlebell snatches. I had to work up to the 50lb snatch (definition of strength increase), and have recently bought a 70lb bell. It takes significant tension to throw a 50lb cannonball over your head and catch it repeatedly without hurting yourself. It integrates everything.

I am pleased with my progress. My mantra now is "Don't stop now, it's time to double down."

[reaper23]

I snatch. A lot. I can snatch 200 lbs. I can do one armed snatches with 100 lb db.

And snatch doesn't build strength for me. It's a technical movement. And the weakest of the compound and Olympic movements.

Plus you will be limited by the kbs.

Snatching is fun. But if you want to build strength the old stand bys are what you want to do.

[Hannibal]

(10-08-2013 05:10 PM)metalheadatheart Wrote:  

The entire point of my post was that I have in fact made gains, and that people who say they see nothing after 6 weeks are doing something wrong.

I disagree with you about kettlebell snatches. I had to work up to the 50lb snatch (definition of strength increase), and have recently bought a 70lb bell. It takes significant tension to throw a 50lb cannonball over your head and catch it repeatedly without hurting yourself. It integrates everything.

You realize that you can just pick up a 70 lb dumbbell and snatch that overhead, right? Really, anything you do with a kettlebell you can do with a dumbbell or a T handle. I love my swings, but I don't like paying 90 - 150 bucks every time I increase the weight of the kettlebell. I know most of you guys work out with a gym membership, but it sure is nice to swing with something that isn't measured in poods. I also have fairly large hands and there's no real consistency between the typical kettlebell brands when it comes to handles.



Swings are legit. They'll make you a better deadlifter.

Also, there's no way in hell you guys are overtraining if you're only in the gym 3-5 times per week.

[mikeymike]

(10-08-2013 03:23 PM)Giovonny Wrote:  

(10-06-2013 10:36 PM)mikeymike Wrote:  

most non high performance athletes will never come close to over training

I agree with 90% of your post but I disagree a little about "over training"..

I will try to explain -- I see people at the gym who are tired. They work 9 hours in an office and then they come to the gym because its part of their routine. They think they must come to the gym to "be healthy". They do the same exercise everyday and their body never really changes. They complain of fatigue and aches and pains.

I think these people are "over training". You know what would make these people feel better and healthier? A nap. A good nights sleep. A vacation.

Do they really need to be in the gym 7 days a week?

For a lot of people, I think the answer is no.

Even God said to rest on Sundays, right?

I believe that we must occasionally allow our bodies to return to 100% power. Few people ever do this. They go through life tired. With little nagging injuries. They never allow their body to fully heal. They feel they must workout religiously.

I think this is "over training".

I see people at the gym who have good bodies but they don't look healthy. Girls who starve themselves and do 2 hours of cardio everyday. Guys who force feed themselves and have bigger arms than legs!

I call this "over training". They need to train smarter not longer!

OBVIOUSLY, IT ISN'T THAT WE DISAGREE. WE ARE USING DIFFERENT DEFINITIONS OF THE WORD "OVER TRAINING".

Also, Everyone's body works differently. Some people need more time to recover. Some people can work 5-7 days in a week and their body will recover well. Other people need more time to fully recover.

If you have great genetics, its hard to over train. If you are young, is hard to over train. If you are on steroids or hgh, its hard to over train. If you are a natural athlete, its hard to over train.

But, for everybody else, I think over training can happen.

If you are always tired, you should consider more hours sleeping and less hours in the gym.

If your body is always in pain, you should consider more time with rest, massage, stretching, etc. and less time putting stress on the same joints, tendons, and ligaments.

Many weight lifters go through periods of shoulder pain. Obviously, this is a good time to train the shoulders less.

Forcing our bodies to work, work, work is not always the best strategy. We all need a break sometimes.

You are talking about pure muscle fiber over training and I am talking about general health and wellness.

Thanks for forcing me to think deeper!

(10-07-2013 05:02 PM)The Lizard of Oz Wrote:  

-- start getting more tweaks or minor injuries of various kinds on seemingly random unrelated exercises

Then someone with these symptoms would take a week or two off from training completely (if they're smart) and come back completely refreshed and often stronger than they were before taking the break.

I read your post and I feel like I wrote it myself. Actually, it's better then what I would have said.

We have the same perspective on this.

You said it all when you said, "IT ISN'T THAT WE DISAGREE. WE ARE USING DIFFERENT DEFINITIONS OF THE WORD"... I'm using the real sports medicine definition and you guys are trying to create a seperate definition to fit what you see out there...what you guys are talking about real issues but just because its an issue it doesn't make it over training. Over training is a very specific event, when I say its primarily the domain of the high performance athlete its because it is, very few non high performance athletes make overreaching daily part of their training routine. The regular gym rat, weekend warrior, fitness junkie will never push their bodies to the degree necessary to reach an over trained level and few are conditioned enough to even get there most will hit burnout or injury long before they get to the over trained state. 99%+ will never come close to being over trained...You guys are talking general fatigue, mental burnout, lack of rest etc...all factors affecting the normal individual and even the performance athlete from reaching their athletic goals but the primary stressor in over training isn't everything else going in your life, its pushing past the point of recovery in training and depending on your school of thought the other factors can weigh in to be a further burden but the primary factor is the physical toll to the body and inability to rebound properly from it...if youre hitting the gym 2 hrs a night, youre not overtrained, you hit the gym 2 hrs a night and you have a mortgage, 4 kids who hate you, a fat wife, and you dont get enough sleep...you need to change your life and those factors are for sure affecting your athletic performance but you're not over trained, the training itself isn't causing his issues, you remove the rest of those issues and 2 hrs a night wouldnt do jack shit, even an out of shape slob in short time will adjust a 2 hr a day workout and thats why its not over training. Now take an athlete who trains 6 hrs a day and lifts outside that, whether there are other stressors in his life or not, that load for any length of time is going to break him down...You add a stress to his life and it may make the recovery process harder but that load was gonna break him regardless...real over training....A night off, a good sleep, a week vaction on the beach in mexico, 2 weeks off the gym isn't going to do a damn thing to an over trained athlete, but to the stressed out bank manager, itll have him reinvigorated to face life and the gym again...again over training is debilitating.. it takes serious recovery time and it's a little laughable to have it compared to the guy who needs a good hug and a nap.

[Hades]

Overtraining for the most part is a myth, and there's many ways to mitigate what people consider overtraining. You can eat more, sleep more, reduce inflammation in any way possible (ice baths, eliminate inflammatory foods, fish oil, etc), drink more water, and jerk off more frequently (it works).

That being said, somebody with a compromised ability to recover (insufficient diet, sleep, recovery movements, too much stress or cortisol, bad conditioning, hell - even low testosterone for any reason) is going to experience what looks or feels like overtraining if he goes balls out for (say) two hours a day, six days a week; supposing he'd never trained that hard before.

The Barbarian Brothers say that "There is no such thing as overtraining, just undereating and undersleeping" - that's a serious quote to consider because IIRC those fuckers were eating 10k calories per day, training four to six hours per day, and sleeping something like ten or eleven hours a night. They were also ripped and enormous.

In all honesty, and given the right conditions, the human body can take significantly more punishment than you think it can. You just need to take shore up your recovery weakpoints and become a little more masochistic.

[metalheadatheart]

(10-09-2013 03:25 AM)Hannibal Wrote:  

(10-08-2013 05:10 PM)metalheadatheart Wrote:  

The entire point of my post was that I have in fact made gains, and that people who say they see nothing after 6 weeks are doing something wrong.

I disagree with you about kettlebell snatches. I had to work up to the 50lb snatch (definition of strength increase), and have recently bought a 70lb bell. It takes significant tension to throw a 50lb cannonball over your head and catch it repeatedly without hurting yourself. It integrates everything.

You realize that you can just pick up a 70 lb dumbbell and snatch that overhead, right? Really, anything you do with a kettlebell you can do with a dumbbell or a T handle. I love my swings, but I don't like paying 90 - 150 bucks every time I increase the weight of the kettlebell. I know most of you guys work out with a gym membership, but it sure is nice to swing with something that isn't measured in poods. I also have fairly large hands and there's no real consistency between the typical kettlebell brands when it comes to handles.



Swings are legit. They'll make you a better deadlifter.

Also, there's no way in hell you guys are overtraining if you're only in the gym 3-5 times per week.

Yes I realize that dumbbells can be used, but they are different in terms of where the center of gravity is. I just like to use kettlebells. I also have a t-bar that I made after reading 4-hour body. It's just no good for snatching.

I agree with your statement about overtraining, unless there are actual medical issues. I don't worry about overtraining. I normally don't workout for more than 1.5 hours at a time. I figure that if you can't get a good workout in that time you're going too light.

At the same time, I never hurt when I leave the gym. I always leave feeling good.