[RexImperator]

This is not a diet question but a lifting question...for those that lift weights and reduce their caloric intake at the same time, what do you usually do programming-wise? Do you go down to a lower work set weight and higher rep range, then work your way back up as well as you can, or do you just endure an extended stall/plateau? Or do shorter sets while trying to increase bar/work set weight?

[jimukr104]

Actually i maintain...but i do heavy low reps.

[ADN]

honestly I have been messing with weights on and off since I was 15. I have trained in some awesome gyms and with some awesome people, and the biggest thing I learned about putting on muscle can be summed up in one word: intensity.

If you are working a 5x5 program, and busting your ass on every set....you will build muscle

If you do a high volume body part split...ie Monday chest, Tuesday, legs...etc......with pyramid sets if you are busting your ass on every set....you will build muscle.


presumably you are eating lower calories because you have some weight to lose. That's ok. You will have more than enough excess calories stored in your bodyweight to worry about severely tapping into your muscle tissue during training...if you are terribly concerned about this supplement with BCAA's before you lift.

So whatever you go with, just make sure that you are doing it with the requisite intensity....not sitting around between sets shooting the breeze with people or texting. Then when you start to hit a plateau just change to another rep scheme.

[MikeCF]

Lift heavy to keep your muscle. 5-8 reps per set.

Drop training volume by 10-25%. Ie fewer sets.

Don't murder yourself in the gym. The diet is going to take care of fat loss, not the calories you burn lifting.

[XYZ]

Hello MikeCf, if you want to maintain the same body weight while increasing your muscles would you recommend the heavy weight, lower reps (5-7) or to go lighter, more reps (10-12)?

Also do you have any views on doing longer negatives, rest between sets, etc?

For years I've been doing heavy with low reps, not spending too much time on negatives, resting for long time (2 minutes) between sets, etc.
I've gotten good gains but have had difficulty seeing gains recently as its hard to keep increasing the weight

[jimukr104]

^^ heavy weight keeps muscle mass but I think since your losing fat your overall bodyweight will decrease.

[T and A Man]

Mike's got it right.

Your conditioning is done with the iron.

Your weight is managed in the kitchen.

[Hades]

Low reps, like 1 to 3, large number of sets - 20 to 10 (depending on rep number of course, scales downwards) - so total lifting volume is about 20 to 30 reps of your 80-90% 1RM. Keep the rest intervals fairly low, like 60-90 seconds, and deload to 80% or lower (and/or increase rest intervals) if you're dragging ass by the later sets.

I pretty much ripped and modified that right off of chaos and pain but I tried it and it works very well. You stay fresh even if you haven't eaten much and might even make slow, steady gains despite a calorie deficit.

[reaper23]

unless you are beyond beginner level weight lifting and already pretty lean, you can cut calories and still lift pretty hard even make strength gains.

newbies get to add muscle and cut fat.

are you past that point? i.e. are already 15% BF or lower / beyond linear progression in your lifts?

[RexImperator]

I am not, but I am starting to get nervous and wondering if I'm just getting fatter with all the eating. I started reducing calories just slightly, and I was surprised how quickly my linear progression in lifts began to stall.

[RexImperator]

I've been doing some more reading and it seems like maybe the SS barbell routine could be modified for losing fat (lifting in caloric deficit) with Reverse Pyramid Training (RPT). The idea is, instead of going for 3x5 at your target work set weight you do 1x6, and then the second set is 1x8 @ 10% lower weight, and then the third set is 1x10 @ a 20% lower (from first set's) weight. Each workout session, attempt to push that first set's working weight up slightly higher if possible.

[reaper23]

i think you may be worrying too much.

what numbers are we talking about here?

what are your stats?

[Hades]

(09-23-2013 09:39 AM)RexImperator Wrote:  

I've been doing some more reading and it seems like maybe the SS barbell routine could be modified for losing fat (lifting in caloric deficit) with Reverse Pyramid Training (RPT). The idea is, instead of going for 3x5 at your target work set weight you do 1x6, and then the second set is 1x8 @ 10% lower weight, and then the third set is 1x10 @ a 20% lower (from first set's) weight. Each workout session, attempt to push that first set's working weight up slightly higher if possible.

Yeah you're worrying about nothing. Just give it a shot and see what happens. Even if you lose a little strength and a little muscle that is OK, you can gain the strength and muscle back very quickly when you decide to bulk again.
If you gain, say, 5 pounds of fat and 8 pounds of muscle during a bulking phase, then when you cut you lose 7 total pounds, maybe you did lose some muscle but the net gain is still in the neighborhood of 6 pounds LBM.
If that muscle gain took you like six months, with a two or three month cut, think where you're going to be at in three years.

[RexImperator]

(09-23-2013 11:03 AM)reaper23 Wrote:  

i think you may be worrying too much.

what numbers are we talking about here?

what are your stats?

Well I think I'm mostly worrying about carrying too much fat even though my strength gains haven't gotten anywhere near out of novice territory. After almost 2 months on SS I've gotten up to what are considered average lift numbers for an untrained male (someone who has never lifted) at my current weight (220lb.) Calculated 1RMs are BP-175, SQ-244, and DL-305. I'm 6'1". Gained about 10 lbs so far.

I've been reading some things that seem to indicate if you go for gains and start with too much body fat, an increased proportion of those gains are just going to be fat, as opposed to starting a bulk when you're leaner, because of messed up hormone levels. That's why I'm thinking I should cut fat now and then get back on the full SS progression later after leaning out a bit. Plus there's the obvious- getting fatter is just annoying.

[Sanblz33]

If you want to get lean just drop your cals & carbs. Also, if possible try to lift heavy as you can (you wont be able to b/c you will be pretty glycogen depleted, hence the reason why most go with lower weight & higher rep ranges when cutting)

[reaper23]

if you've stalled on your progression, just reset back 10-15 pounds and start over. thats part of the linear progression. its ok.

but for some reason there is a part of me that thinks you just might not be trying hard enough.

in your position you are set up for the easiest gains of your life. complete and total newb gains.

and in this scenario you can add strength, cut fat and build muscle, likely even with a calorie deficit. what i would suggest is just trying to eat maintenance calories, do your lifts and some cardio and you'll add muscle and cut fat.

do you know what your maintenance calories are?

[RexImperator]

(09-24-2013 08:23 AM)reaper23 Wrote:  

if you've stalled on your progression, just reset back 10-15 pounds and start over. thats part of the linear progression. its ok.

but for some reason there is a part of me that thinks you just might not be trying hard enough.

in your position you are set up for the easiest gains of your life. complete and total newb gains.

and in this scenario you can add strength, cut fat and build muscle, likely even with a calorie deficit. what i would suggest is just trying to eat maintenance calories, do your lifts and some cardio and you'll add muscle and cut fat.

do you know what your maintenance calories are?

Thanks for the advice. I've been trying to figure my maintenance calories out. I've used online calculators/estimators such as this one:

Scooby's TDEE Calculator

According to this it should be around 3300. But perhaps that is a bit high. I am going to try reducing calories slightly further and see what happens.

It could be that I am just beating the sh*t out of myself squatting 3x a week, or maybe I need more sleep. As an experiment, I skipped squatting today (trying to let a slight injury heal) and I was able to push my 3x5 Bench and 1x5 DL higher on fewer calories. So that felt good.

I've reordered many things in my life to make fitness a priority. This is important to me. I'll admit I might be "overthinking" it though... There's certainly a mental challenge to overcome when you put in so much effort, and feel like you look worse. Regardless, I'll push through.

[reaper23]

I suggest using ten to twelve times your body weight for now.

3300 sounds high for someone who has no muscle

Hell, I'm. 245 and I can maintain on 2800

[RexImperator]

I'll reduce gradually in that direction and see what happens.

Found this which seems relevant:

Lyle MacDonald: How to Estimate Maintenance Caloric Intake

[jimukr104]

I just started by continuing my low reps(4-8) heavy weight 3-4 sets. Cut calories only very little, like 200 per day. Do 20-30 minutes on the bike 1-2 times per week. Just doing it slowly making sure my protein stays close to the same.Hopefully my muscles will stay the same from the lack of shock to my metabolism.
Also divide my meals so i have more meals and my digestive system is operating.

[Remington]

German Volume

[metalhaze]

If you are on a calorie deficit (i.e. cutting) do not train beyond failure. your aim is to maintain the most muscle so do not do heavy sets i.e. below 8 reps or you will be vulenrable to injury as you'll be dehydrated. Check out blood and guts by dorian yates.
Btw avoid being in a ketosis while cutting as you will lose a good deal of muscle mass too...try to diet on a longer period. ex. 300 to 500 calorie deficit per day at the most while keeping protein to at least 1 g per lb of body weight over a 16-20 week period, in other words try a slow cut.

[RexImperator]

A couple of other good links relevant here:

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/trainin...art-1.html

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/trainin...art-2.html

TL;DR: More or less as suggested above, research suggests the best strategy to retain strength while attempting to lose fat is to reduce the frequency and or volume of training, but not the intensity.

[RexImperator]

(09-25-2013 11:04 PM)metalhaze Wrote:  

...try to diet on a longer period. ex. 300 to 500 calorie deficit per day at the most while keeping protein to at least 1 g per lb of body weight over a 16-20 week period, in other words try a slow cut.

I am going to do this now. I've been slowly tapering my calories back over the last couple weeks. I could probably go on with more LP/SS if I only cared about squatting high numbers and nothing else but I'm just not willing to put on anymore fat. And I'd prefer a break from that, anyway.

[RexImperator]

Do you think it's better to slowly re-comp, or to go faster with weight loss over a shorter period of time? (If you have a decent amount of fat to lose?). In the first instance you might make slow strength gains, and in the second you'll certainly stall or lose strength, but you can regain later (muscle memory, et cetera).