[soup]

Remember that guy who got into trouble by asking a woman in an elevator if she wanted coffee?

That "incident" has snowballed and now atheism is split between feminists who believe in an a un-provable patriarchy, and genuine skeptics who question that belief based on lack of evidence in the same way that they question religion.

I know that female redpill advocates catch a lot of flack around here, but I wouldn't have become aware of this schism had I not stumbled on

and the radio program where they talk about what happened: http://www.blogtalkradio.com/avoiceforme...in-atheism


It just goes to show that even women who are supposedly at the highest levels of rational thinking are truly incapable of putting their emotions aside. Finding a woman who can actually think rationally seems to be a super rare event.

It's ok if women don't think rationally- nature didn't design them that way. The problem arises when men let these women believe that they are equally as rational.

We talk about congruence in pick-up. The most in-congruent thing in the world is a woman who lets her emotions get the best of her, but is also accepted as, or wants to be accepted as, a rational member of society.

Feminism is a huge scam.

[T and A Man]

Quote:

It just goes to show that even women who are supposedly at the highest levels of rational thinking are truly incapable of putting their emotions aside.

is that what we call it?

[soup]

(09-03-2013 02:13 AM)T and A Man Wrote:  

Quote:

It just goes to show that even women who are supposedly at the highest levels of rational thinking are truly incapable of putting their emotions aside.

is that what we call it?

Ok typo, I meant to say "the most basic levels of rational thinking"

[Architekt]

I posted in another thread how feminism is the new religion just a couple hours ago. The real difference being that religion is based on the providing answers to the unknown as an incentive and deterrent in its methods of control, whereas feminism uses ignorance as its form of control

[iknowexactly]

I remember reading somewhere a guy said that to view women as children is to flatter them and ourselves. I liked that.

It's insane to try to explain to a child that it's a child that it can't understand certain things at this stage of its life.

The difference with women is that they can never grow up, so you can never explain this to them.

Their purposes to us are sex, home care, child rearing, and morale.

Seek additional things to your own detriment.

[soup]

(09-03-2013 02:13 AM)T and A Man Wrote:  

Quote:

It just goes to show that even women who are supposedly at the highest levels of rational thinking are truly incapable of putting their emotions aside.

is that what we call it?

Ok typo, I meant to say "the most basic levels of rational thinking"

[Gopher]

Relevant.

[Benoit]

I used to be 100% certain there was no god, and was proud to be an atheist and a skeptic. 5 years ago they were movements filled with intelligent men from young to old. Now they're both run to benefit ugly women and only weak-minded men are allowed to be part of them.

Congratulations, feminists! You took something created for the betterment of society and destroyed it.

[placer]

Quote:

Remember that guy who got into trouble by asking a woman in an elevator if she wanted coffee?

Ah, yes, never heard about it but after some Googling: I agree with Mr. Dawkins that feminists are taking it too far: http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badast...privilege/

For the record, Mr. Dawkins wife (Lalla Ward, a famous British actress) is far hotter and far smarter than this ugly "feminist" Rebecca Watson will ever be.

When feminists consider an innocent proposal for coffee an example of "rape culture", they have taken things far too far. Here's a rant worth reading:

http://www.singledudetravel.com/2011/07/...ca-watson/

[Wutang]

The split has been going on for a while. A while ago there was a huge split in the whole atheist community because of the whole "atheism plus" thing. Basically a bunch of people, mostly feminist and progressive types which was mostly women but also included a lot of prominent men in the community like P.J. Myers who have strong leftist leanings decided that the atheist movement shoud also be associated with various causes such as LGBT advocacy, feminism, and other leftist pet projects.

I don't think it's any secret that many people involved in the atheist movement tend to be on the leftist or liberal side of things so if anything this conflict just shows that there truly are people that are getting sick of what modern feminism is peddling. Even people who are on their side politically and culturally are getting sick of them.

[soup]

Game-wise, I wonder how it went down exactly. Had they met before the elevator?

Was that the first thing he said to her?

What was the conversation that led up to that.

Was his body language off or something? Maybe the problem was that he wasn't generating any initial attraction/comfort before asking her back to his private space.

I bet that if it was some guy that she considered alpha, it might have gone down differently. The guy was probably some beta.omega nerd. He might have had some drinks, and this was his version of going caveman. Combine that with fact that she's an entitled feminist and you have a perfect storm of shit. She was probably offended that some "loser" would assume that she was down to go back to his room. A lot of mediocre girls are afraid of being considered a slut; they know that guys don't really value them past a one night stand.

I ask girls who I've just met to come back to my house for drinks all the time. Sounds like this guy should have read the first date bang recipe.

Maybe he didn't give her enough plausible deniability or something. I do think that asking a girl you don't know back to your room is making your intentions clear without explicitly saying "I want to fuck you". The only way something like that is going to work is if you've created enough of vibe/experience that she's distracted from the fact that she's going back to your private space.

Also, hotels aren't all that private anyway..

Did he know that she was a raging feminist?

----


On second thought, that's a pretty ballsy move for him to invite her like that, so he probably wasn't a nerd. She's just a crazy feminist.

[jaakkeli]

(09-03-2013 07:22 AM)Wutang Wrote:  

I don't think it's any secret that many people involved in the atheist movement tend to be on the leftist

I'd guess everyone in any "atheist movement" is left-wing. "Movements" and "communities" are for the religious and "the atheist movement" sounds like something for people who want to make a religion out of their politics. I don't need a fucking community for not being religious and I've never met a fellow right-wing atheist who had any interest in atheist organizations.

Any "atheist community" on the internet is likely to be 95 % male and if you add a few semi-attractive women to a mass of nerdy men it always has the same results: some will instantly turn into white knights while some will get angry at having to deal with women's bullshit in a previously all male place. Nothing interesting or new happening there, just the usual internet "misogyny" story we've already seen for everything from video games to pick up forums.

[jaakkeli]

(09-03-2013 08:18 AM)soup Wrote:  

Was his body language off or something? Maybe the problem was that he wasn't generating any initial attraction/comfort before asking her back to his private space.

Why are we assuming that there was anything wrong with the guy in the first place? Perhaps all there is to this story is that a very plain looking woman wanted an ego boost out of broadcasting to the world that she has been "sexually harassed".

Quote:

I bet that if it was some guy that she considered alpha, it might have gone down differently.

But then, it's also possible that the guy was out of her league and she knew that she'd never get more than a night of sex out of the man. The very forward move then automatically becomes a suggestion that she's the kind of a girl who would sleep with a much hotter man even when knowing that she's got no chance of commitment with him.

In any case, an elevator is a bad place for approaching as girls will have all guards up in a small space that you can't flee fast.

[soup]

(09-03-2013 08:45 AM)jaakkeli Wrote:  

(09-03-2013 08:18 AM)soup Wrote:  

Was his body language off or something? Maybe the problem was that he wasn't generating any initial attraction/comfort before asking her back to his private space.

Why are we assuming that there was anything wrong with the guy in the first place? Perhaps all there is to this story is that a very plain looking woman wanted an ego boost out of broadcasting to the world that she has been "sexually harassed".

Quote:

I bet that if it was some guy that she considered alpha, it might have gone down differently.

But then, it's also possible that the guy was out of her league and she knew that she'd never get more than a night of sex out of the man. The very forward move then automatically becomes a suggestion that she's the kind of a girl who would sleep with a much hotter man even when knowing that she's got no chance of commitment with him.

In any case, an elevator is a bad place for approaching as girls will have all guards up in a small space that you can't flee fast.

Krauser wrote about the two poles of "responsibility" in game; some guys believe that it is totally up to you as the guy to make the bang happen, while other believe that it's external forces that make it happen.

I tend to fall into the camp that says it comes from the guy.

When a pick up fails, I look at it and try to figure out who the guy can improve is approach.

In this case, he was dealing with a nutcase.

I do believe that if he had the right game, he would have banged her. I bet you I could bang her.

Based on what I see in the video here's what would need to be in place:

She'd have to think I was hot guy from the get go- in her case this wouldn't mean being a bulky douche, but a thin/rockstar body. Think Russel Brand look. Also, you'd have to hang out with her in a group and isolate her to show that you are a competent male.

He'd have to butter her up a lot with flirty negs and a lot of booze to get her mind off of politics.

The move to the room would have to be an after thought. You guys are getting hammered and you go to the roof or something. You start talking about some object or cool thing that's in your room. Plant the seeds. Drink more.

You take her back to your room to show her this cool thing. You are drinking more and more.

The whole time, you've been pushing the physical escalation: making fun of her and tapping her on the shoulder, paling around etc. You're pushing the boundaries to see how far you can go with the physicality.

Then, the bang "just happens"

There are two very black and white things that can happen with a girl like this when you wake up the next morning:

either she's going to freak out and say you raped her,

or she's going to thank you for fucking her so well and you guys will bang that whole morning into the afternoon. When she starts to sober up and her feminism kicks in, she will complain to you about all the other loser men out there. But, she will consider you part of her tribe.

And, she will cling. For the rest of the week at the atheist convention, you'd better be fucking her or she's going to get buyer's remorse and claim that you raped her. The best thing would be to tell her you have to fly out of town or something.

[Ocelot]

(09-03-2013 03:10 AM)crippler Wrote:  

I used to be 100% certain there was no god, and was proud to be an atheist and a skeptic. 5 years ago they were movements filled with intelligent men from young to old. Now they're both run to benefit ugly women and only weak-minded men are allowed to be part of them.

Congratulations, feminists! You took something created for the betterment of society and destroyed it.

I remember going to a humanist event about 7 years ago - it was mostly lectures on emerging science. The crowd was 99% men, quite a lot of them 50+. I went to another one two or so years ago - it was mostly lectures about how the atheist and skeptic communities could be furthering "social justice" and making women feel more comfortable, complete with a feminist musician to sing us a series of songs about how male standards of beauty are oppressive. The crowd was about 30% horrendously ugly women, and the average age had gone down about 30 years.

If you're curious as to what happened:

One of the only female social commentators out there who's thinking instead of feeling.

[Bad Hussar]

(09-03-2013 08:18 AM)soup Wrote:  

Game-wise, I wonder how it went down exactly. Had they met before the elevator?

Was that the first thing he said to her?

What was the conversation that led up to that.

Was his body language off or something? Maybe the problem was that he wasn't generating any initial attraction/comfort before asking her back to his private space.

I bet that if it was some guy that she considered alpha, it might have gone down differently. The guy was probably some beta.omega nerd. He might have had some drinks, and this was his version of going caveman. Combine that with fact that she's an entitled feminist and you have a perfect storm of shit. She was probably offended that some "loser" would assume that she was down to go back to his room. A lot of mediocre girls are afraid of being considered a slut; they know that guys don't really value them past a one night stand.

I ask girls who I've just met to come back to my house for drinks all the time. Sounds like this guy should have read the first date bang recipe.

Maybe he didn't give her enough plausible deniability or something. I do think that asking a girl you don't know back to your room is making your intentions clear without explicitly saying "I want to fuck you". The only way something like that is going to work is if you've created enough of vibe/experience that she's distracted from the fact that she's going back to your private space.

Also, hotels aren't all that private anyway..

Did he know that she was a raging feminist?

----


On second thought, that's a pretty ballsy move for him to invite her like that, so he probably wasn't a nerd. She's just a crazy feminist.

This happened some years ago, and has been analysed in full by various forums. You are sort of right. The guy did not have a high SMV (sexual market value). But neither did the girl. Basically a guy "3" makes a move on a girl "3". Girl is "offended" at coming face to face with her own SMV and deliberately misinterprets events in order to try to regain some sort of psychological equanimity.

I'm almost a lifetime atheist myself (at since adult brain development started at puberty), but I don't have much sympathy for the flack Dawkins caught when he mocked this idoitic woman. He has previously spoken well of feminism by name, and of all people in the world he really aught to know better. i.e. He is a smart guy who should realise that modern feminism is a sham. I believe Dawkins himself has a daughter, which may go some way to explaining things. Personally I wouldn't trust a man with a daughter to speak on female gender issues. They are too inclined to draw up an imaginary drawbridge behind them and throw out all the behavioural knowledge (aka game) that led to winning of the mother and the conception of the daughter once said daughter comes along. So even for someone like Dawkins the reality of human sexuality seems to be too much to bear when considering how this may affect their own daughter. Therefore they, too, imagine some sort of salvation in the form of feminism, which will take out all the messiness and allow their daughters to sail through life on a cloud. But someone like Dawkins should know better. For every book or movement promoting feminism there are 1000's ore like "50 Shades".

As for atheistic "movements" and promotion. Never really understood them myself. In my opinion people like Dawkins Hitchens etc. would have been better off not promoting atheism so aggressively. They have/had so much more to offer, and the atheism tended to crowd everything else. No doubt made mega-bucks from the books. Maybe that explains it.

I suppose if an atheist really wants to belong to a movement they could join a humanist group. Otherwise just go on about your daily business as usual happy in the knowledge that, with the notable exception of politics, atheists are massively over represented at the top of almost every field. I don't think atheists need to organise in the West to protect their interests, and doing this is reactionary. There are already plenty at the top pulling the strings.

[Ocelot]

(09-03-2013 01:32 PM)Bad Hussar Wrote:  

I'm almost a lifetime atheist myself (at since adult brain development started at puberty), but I don't have much sympathy for the flack Dawkins caught when he mocked this idoitic woman. He has previously spoken well of feminism by name, and of all people in the world he really aught to know better. i.e. He is a smart guy who should realise that modern feminism is a sham.

When has Dawkins ever spoken well of feminism? The only time I've ever seen him close to the topic of feminism, he's been mocking it:

Not attacking, just curious as he seems to be a figure the far left despise.

[Bad Hussar]

System double post

[placer]

(09-03-2013 02:11 PM)Ocelot Wrote:  

When has Dawkins ever spoken well of feminism? The only time I've ever seen him close to the topic of feminism, he's been mocking it:

The video appears to have been taken down. Could you please summarize it?

[Bad Hussar]

Specifically in a bit he used in a couple of speeches where he objects to children being labeled as Christian, Muslim etc. His objection is that children obviously cannot be religious and that the language we use is important. He compares religious labels with gender labels/language and mentions feminists fight against using "his" "he" etc. when no specific gender is intended in literature. It seemed to me approvingly.

Sorry, my connection is bad right now so I can't view the video above, or look for the one I mean. No doubt as an evolutionary biologist Dawkins is miles ahead of most others (like politicians) in facing the real world, but my sense of him is that he has a soft spot for feminism. May be wrong about that, though.

As for the left hating him. Yes, what passes for the modern left MUST hate him, as they must hate an biologically based thinker. Dawkins himself is a true liberal, in the classical sense, I believe. Not like a politician, who whether labeled liberal or conservative, is seldom either. Just an opportunist.

[placer]

(09-03-2013 08:45 AM)jaakkeli Wrote:  

Perhaps all there is to this story is that a very plain looking woman wanted an ego boost out of broadcasting to the world that she has been "sexually harassed".

That's the sense I get. My experience has been that the women who go on about how horrible it is guys try and "pick up" on them are rather ugly. It's really a form of bragging and an attempt at DHV (display of higher value): "I'm sexy because all these guys are trying to hit on me. They're being really obvious and rude about it because I'm SUPER-SEXY!!!1!!!111".

I wouldn't mind it except that, you get a beta or, worse yet, an omega, hearing this kind of feminist bullshit, and they do not try to speak to women at all until they take the red pill and learn some pick up techniques.

[gringochileno]

(09-03-2013 09:12 AM)soup Wrote:  

(09-03-2013 08:45 AM)jaakkeli Wrote:  

(09-03-2013 08:18 AM)soup Wrote:  

Was his body language off or something? Maybe the problem was that he wasn't generating any initial attraction/comfort before asking her back to his private space.

Why are we assuming that there was anything wrong with the guy in the first place? Perhaps all there is to this story is that a very plain looking woman wanted an ego boost out of broadcasting to the world that she has been "sexually harassed".

Quote:

I bet that if it was some guy that she considered alpha, it might have gone down differently.

But then, it's also possible that the guy was out of her league and she knew that she'd never get more than a night of sex out of the man. The very forward move then automatically becomes a suggestion that she's the kind of a girl who would sleep with a much hotter man even when knowing that she's got no chance of commitment with him.

In any case, an elevator is a bad place for approaching as girls will have all guards up in a small space that you can't flee fast.

Krauser wrote about the two poles of "responsibility" in game; some guys believe that it is totally up to you as the guy to make the bang happen, while other believe that it's external forces that make it happen.

I tend to fall into the camp that says it comes from the guy.

When a pick up fails, I look at it and try to figure out who the guy can improve is approach.

In this case, he was dealing with a nutcase.

I do believe that if he had the right game, he would have banged her. I bet you I could bang her.

Based on what I see in the video here's what would need to be in place:

She'd have to think I was hot guy from the get go- in her case this wouldn't mean being a bulky douche, but a thin/rockstar body. Think Russel Brand look. Also, you'd have to hang out with her in a group and isolate her to show that you are a competent male.

He'd have to butter her up a lot with flirty negs and a lot of booze to get her mind off of politics.

The move to the room would have to be an after thought. You guys are getting hammered and you go to the roof or something. You start talking about some object or cool thing that's in your room. Plant the seeds. Drink more.

You take her back to your room to show her this cool thing. You are drinking more and more.

The whole time, you've been pushing the physical escalation: making fun of her and tapping her on the shoulder, paling around etc. You're pushing the boundaries to see how far you can go with the physicality.

Then, the bang "just happens"

There are two very black and white things that can happen with a girl like this when you wake up the next morning:

either she's going to freak out and say you raped her,

or she's going to thank you for fucking her so well and you guys will bang that whole morning into the afternoon. When she starts to sober up and her feminism kicks in, she will complain to you about all the other loser men out there. But, she will consider you part of her tribe.

And, she will cling. For the rest of the week at the atheist convention, you'd better be fucking her or she's going to get buyer's remorse and claim that you raped her. The best thing would be to tell her you have to fly out of town or something.

This is how my bangs with feminist chicks (which are overwhelmingly SNL/ONS) almost always go down. You show value, separate her from the group, and create this fun bubble where eventually going to your place or hers is a natural extension of the fun you're having (usually it's to get more booze).

I always try to go for morning sex too, mostly because it's usually better than when I'm wasted at 5AM but also to ward off any potential false rape charge. Even a hardcore feminist would have a hard time summoning the cognitive dissonance to convince herself she was raped by a guy she willingly banged again sober in the morning.

To the OP's original question, I do believe there is a natural tension between feminism and atheism. It's a tension that is often overcome due to people's ability to compartmentalize and the fact that people in both groups tend to be in similar demographics (upper middle class white liberals), but once you get someone into the habit of questioning their commitments critically it's only a matter of time until they see the various ways in which the fundamental assumptions of feminism fail to correspond to reality.

[eradicator]

I misread the title as "are feminists and athleticism incompatible"

the answer to that is "no not really, expect a lot of masculine women to be playing and dominating women's sports"

[Sumanguru]

Soup, gringo,

out of curiosity, how would you game without alcohol? Just curious. For various reasons I'm around chicks like this on an infrequent basis; most I have no interest in but occasionally one or two will catch my eye. However I don't drink and am not a fan of booze. How would you alter your game if you had to deal with her sober? (Could you deal with her sober? lol).

[gringochileno]

(09-03-2013 03:54 PM)Sumanguru Wrote:  

Soup, gringo,

out of curiosity, how would you game without alcohol? Just curious. For various reasons I'm around chicks like this on an infrequent basis; most I have no interest in but occasionally one or two will catch my eye. However I don't drink and am not a fan of booze. How would you alter your game if you had to deal with her sober? (Could you deal with her sober? lol).

It's rare for me to get a notch with a girl who's had absolutely no alcohol (if I meet her at night she's drinking, and I rarely do anything other than drink dates), but on a first date the girl will usually have no more than 1-2 drinks, which is sober for all intents and purposes. I've still pulled from a number of these, the only real difference is that you can get more resistance when escalating but you just need to stay persistent. Same game, basically.