[JayJuanGee]

(09-21-2014 07:53 PM)Ziltoid Wrote:  

Have you considered the addition of carb cycling or a cheat day?
Never tried it personally, but I've heard in a few places that when on a low or no carb diet, picking a day or two a week to cheat and carb up results in faster and more extreme fat loss, and more efficient glycogen function (very important if you're lifting).

This question was already asked and I responded to it in the above post and Chaos responded to it.

In sum, I do NOT do it for the reasons that I cited in my earlier response, but depending on how you structure your diet (or maybe on how strict you are) there could be some utility in having some kind of day where you include more carbs.

I believe that individual tolerance may vary, and even guys could run into carb creep or even defeat some of the purposes of low carb by "carbing up" too frequently.

Part of the reported advantages of trying to maintain longer periods of low carb is to put your body into ketosis and to get your body more used to burning ketones rather than glucose as a fuel source.. if you keep adding the glucose back in, then your body may never become keto-adapted. Actually, there seems to be some different schools of thoughts on this and there may be some bro-science involved here too because in order to really get an assessment of what works for you, there may be some need to attempt to measure ketones, which is also an evolving practice (sometimes available through breath meters and sometimes through urine sticks).

I have NOT measured my own ketones... however, Jimmy Moore's new book entitled Keto-clarity gets into some discussion about ketone measurement (I have NOT yet read his book - but I listen to his podcast which he has discussed a lot of the contents in the past several months).

[JayJuanGee]

(09-21-2014 07:10 PM)SteveCR Wrote:  

As to why I won't open a thread regarding CICO, it's an exercise in futility. There are 2 clearly divided camps - those that believe in CICO and those that do not. It's become religious at this point.

NOW, after further racking my brain (regarding your supposed simplistic ideas of what supposedly "works"), I finally get your fucking puzzle..

I surmise: CICO = Calories In, Calories Out....

Would it NOT be easier to say whatever you mean and spell it out, rather than adding another fricken distracting puzzle, no?

So, you are NOT going to start a thread to enlighten us and to focus us, and instead you are just going to continue to troll various health and diet threads to accuse us of religion, to distract and to divert - while maybe tacitly admitting that you are engaged in a forum of religion that you call CICO.... o.k.? That makes sense.

[Bilboswaggins]

I can't say it better than good ol' Berkhan, so here are two articles that are right on money:

http://www.leangains.com/2010/06/malcolm...diets.html

http://www.leangains.com/2009/02/low-carb-talibans.html

[JayJuanGee]

(09-22-2014 09:09 AM)Bilboswaggins Wrote:  

I can't say it better than good ol' Berkhan, so here are two articles that are right on money:

http://www.leangains.com/2010/06/malcolm...diets.html

http://www.leangains.com/2009/02/low-carb-talibans.html

Bilboswaggins:

I make the same suggestion to you as I had already made to SteveCR regarding starting your own thread touting the advantages of carbs or whatever other mainstream ideas you want to propogate - because otherwise what you seem to be attempting to accomplish is to derail, divert and distract this thread with a variety of information that guys can find through a large number of mainstream sources...

You are NOT telling us anything new and you are NOT really contributing to the ideas of the thread and the guys pursuit of knowledge concerning low carb / high fat.

Surely, there is NO real problem to provide information that brings into question some of the premises of the thread - but really, those kinds of ideas challenging the premises of the thread can be found all over the place.. and what you are doing seems to be more of a form of trolling rather than contributing...

I would surmise if you frame your questions or issues in an appealing way, you may be able to get some guys to interact on those ideas regarding the benefits of carbs and/or calorie counting in another thread.

[SteveCR]

(09-21-2014 10:02 PM)JayJuanGee Wrote:  

NOW, after further racking my brain (regarding your supposed simplistic ideas of what supposedly "works"), I finally get your fucking puzzle..

I surmise: CICO = Calories In, Calories Out....

Would it NOT be easier to say whatever you mean and spell it out, rather than adding another fricken distracting puzzle, no?

So, you are NOT going to start a thread to enlighten us and to focus us, and instead you are just going to continue to troll various health and diet threads to accuse us of religion, to distract and to divert - while maybe tacitly admitting that you are engaged in a forum of religion that you call CICO.... o.k.? That makes sense.

Do you think I made up the acronym CICO? It's a rather common acronym. Admittedly, I do work in the health/diet industry, so perhaps it's just common to those of us in the industry?

Your seeming frustration with me is puzzling. You want to complicate health and nutrition so much, and when *anybody* (not just me) comes in and simplifies it, you go on the defensive. Why?

It shouldn't take a degree in nutrition to simplify things, but when people just keep on perpetuating these myths (and they are rampant everywhere), all it does is further confuse people. Granted, it is awesome for my business, so I suppose I shouldn't complain too much, right?

[SteveCR]

(09-22-2014 02:02 PM)JayJuanGee Wrote:  

Bilboswaggins:

I make the same suggestion to you as I had already made to SteveCR regarding starting your own thread touting the advantages of carbs or whatever other mainstream ideas you want to propogate - because otherwise what you seem to be attempting to accomplish is to derail, divert and distract this thread with a variety of information that guys can find through a large number of mainstream sources...

You are NOT telling us anything new and you are NOT really contributing to the ideas of the thread and the guys pursuit of knowledge concerning low carb / high fat.

Surely, there is NO real problem to provide information that brings into question some of the premises of the thread - but really, those kinds of ideas challenging the premises of the thread can be found all over the place.. and what you are doing seems to be more of a form of trolling rather than contributing...

I would surmise if you frame your questions or issues in an appealing way, you may be able to get some guys to interact on those ideas regarding the benefits of carbs and/or calorie counting in another thread.

What is your issue with mainstream knowledge? It is correct. We already know this. We already know how human physiology works. It's not even up for debate anymore. There's no question about it - absolutely none.

You want a thought-provoking topic on the benefits of low carb and/or high fat. Why? It's already been debunked (with the exception of epileptic patients). The academic and scientific communities have already tested this ad nauseam. There is already entirely too much evidence supporting CICO and debunking low carb. Why do you keep on trying to keep it alive?

Go get a degree in nutrition and watch what they teach. Learn from first-hand experience through your clients what actually works.

[roberto]

It was once 'mainstream knowledge' than the Earth was flat. Folk look at you like you're crazy when you mention baking soda as a deodrant, yet we at RVF know it works.

All I have to say on the matter is this- low carb / paleo / keto have all worked for me in terms of keeping me healthy, loosing weight when it was required and generally making me a better man with more vitality and energy. I don't know why, and I don't care. For me, the closest approximation is that eating a diet similar to that we ate 10,000 years ago (hardly any time at all in terms of evolution) just makes sense. It's no longer a diet for me, it's a way of life.

I've no issue with your basic stance- if all the fatties took on board the CICO/ELMM () mantra, the world would be a better place overnight. However your post below is just pure troll.
This forum is not about whether one diet is right or wrong. It's about sharing ideas and knowledge to make us the best men we can possibly be. I sometimes think we loose track of that.

(09-22-2014 02:15 PM)SteveCR Wrote:  

You want a thought-provoking topic on the benefits of low carb and/or high fat. Why? It's already been debunked (with the exception of epileptic patients). The academic and scientific communities have already tested this ad nauseam. There is already entirely too much evidence supporting CICO and debunking low carb. Why do you keep on trying to keep it alive?

Go get a degree in nutrition and watch what they teach. Learn from first-hand experience through your clients what actually works.

[Bilboswaggins]

(09-22-2014 02:02 PM)JayJuanGee Wrote:  

(09-22-2014 09:09 AM)Bilboswaggins Wrote:  

I can't say it better than good ol' Berkhan, so here are two articles that are right on money:

http://www.leangains.com/2010/06/malcolm...diets.html

http://www.leangains.com/2009/02/low-carb-talibans.html

Bilboswaggins:

I make the same suggestion to you as I had already made to SteveCR regarding starting your own thread touting the advantages of carbs or whatever other mainstream ideas you want to propogate - because otherwise what you seem to be attempting to accomplish is to derail, divert and distract this thread with a variety of information that guys can find through a large number of mainstream sources...

You are NOT telling us anything new and you are NOT really contributing to the ideas of the thread and the guys pursuit of knowledge concerning low carb / high fat.

Surely, there is NO real problem to provide information that brings into question some of the premises of the thread - but really, those kinds of ideas challenging the premises of the thread can be found all over the place.. and what you are doing seems to be more of a form of trolling rather than contributing...

I would surmise if you frame your questions or issues in an appealing way, you may be able to get some guys to interact on those ideas regarding the benefits of carbs and/or calorie counting in another thread.

Well, if you actually read through the articles I linked to then you would understand that I'm simply trying to get to the root of low-carb dieting and provide insight as to WHY different set-ups work and why all of them have their own ups and downs. This thread started out as a datasheet on one persons experience regarding low-carb diets and turned into a debate where one side is saying that it is the holy grail of body recompositon and the other side trying to prove that other methods also work. I believe there's no harm in giving people a variety of set-ups to choose from, especially when the other ways are proven to provide the same results. Kind of like teaching someone to fish instead of giving him the fish.

I was not trying to derail the thread, I just left a few interesting and true nuggets of wisdom for lurkers to read, so they can formulate their own opinion. As to mainstream information, no, not really. Although leangains and intermittent fasting as a whole has changed into a bandwagon on its own, there's lots of good information on that site about the science behind dieting, breaking myths regarding dieting and much much more. Kind of like the red-pill of fitness industry actually.

The thing is, the actual 'mainstream' of todays dieting world is trying to find a magic diet or solution for all your problems, but in reality eating your macroes in a non-stupid way and counting your calories is all you need to know. Paleo, low-carb, Atkins diet, you name it. Sadly, a lot of people get caught up in advice given by people with good intentions but lack of knowledge in the basics. Everyone wants to hide their failures behind a diet 'not working' when actually they're just making excuses for not calculating their caloric needs and eating in accordance to it.

[JayJuanGee]

(09-22-2014 02:09 PM)SteveCR Wrote:  

Do you think I made up the acronym CICO? It's a rather common acronym.

I had NOT heard of it, and just because it is apparently common does NOT mean that it is appropriate to throw it around in this thread, when people may NOT know what it means. We are NOT at some conference of dietary professionals.

Second your use of CICO seems sort of fitting to the way that you seem to be pursuing this subject to continue to seem to strive to derail, detour and distract this thread from the topic at hand, which if you may NOT recall is Low carb high fat, NOT psycho.. woops... did I just accidentally type psycho?

(09-22-2014 02:09 PM)SteveCR Wrote:  

Admittedly, I do work in the health/diet industry, so perhaps it's just common to those of us in the industry?

YES>>> you have mentioned your supposed expertise in other threads as well, yet that does NOT take away from your attempt to impose bullshit on guys in this thread rather than allowing us to freely engage with meaningful sharing of ideas that are pertinent to this thread.

(09-22-2014 02:09 PM)SteveCR Wrote:  

Your seeming frustration with me is puzzling. You want to complicate health and nutrition so much, and when *anybody* (not just me) comes in and simplifies it, you go on the defensive. Why?

I am NOT clear why you are NOW attempting to get into a discussion about me, when you are striving to derail the thread with your bullshit.. and it is NOT only this thread, but other health threads. Guys here do NOT really need some white knights coming in and attempting to get us to save ourselves from ourselves with mainstream dogma... that does NOT really engage regarding the topic of the thread.. which here is the discussion of guys' experiences, experimenting and curiosity to explore non-mainstream ideas of low carb, high fat diets. They can find plenty of CICO in the mainstream press, if they wish to pursue those avenues.

(09-22-2014 02:09 PM)SteveCR Wrote:  

It shouldn't take a degree in nutrition to simplify things, but when people just keep on perpetuating these myths (and they are rampant everywhere), all it does is further confuse people.

What the fuck are you talking about? What myths? Are you talking about the myth of CICO or the myth of eat less work more? or the phoa science in the mainstream?

If you are going to attempt to engage with some specifics, then you need to be more clear about what you are referring to and to describe it and to explain it, rather than continuing to make puzzles and to distract and to throw out a variety generalities trying to get us to figure out to what you are referring.

(09-22-2014 02:09 PM)SteveCR Wrote:  

Granted, it is awesome for my business, so I suppose I shouldn't complain too much, right?

Yes, you can go ahead and work at your business and make money, and maybe it would be a good idea if you had such great ideas to make a thread to contribute to the forum with your great ideas, rather than continuing to cockblock our threads regarding these dietary topics.

[JayJuanGee]

(09-22-2014 02:15 PM)SteveCR Wrote:  

What is your issue with mainstream knowledge? It is correct. We already know this. We already know how human physiology works. It's not even up for debate anymore. There's no question about it - absolutely none.

Who says that I have any problems or issues with mainstream knowledge? Guys here are just exploring ideas. We do NOT have set ideas about what works or does NOT work, and to the extent that mainstream knowledge is correct on a subject, then maybe we would discuss those ideas or confirm them.. .and I doubt that few guys (possibly besides you) are making any real forceful claims to black and white and to attempt to over simplify matters.. sure there are, from time to time, attempts to simplify matters in terms of experiences that guys have and what they believe to be better or worse. Few of these other guys go to the same level of extremes as you in their attempts to impose that science compels us into coming to fairly narrow and simplified conclusions as you are trying to project with your ongoing claims to knowledge and authority.

(09-22-2014 02:15 PM)SteveCR Wrote:  

You want a thought-provoking topic on the benefits of low carb and/or high fat. Why?

This topic was already started by OP... which was NOT me, as you may recall. I am just attempting, to the best of my ability to stay within reasonable parameters of the thread's topic. Accordingly, if you had your say about you do NOT believe the thread, and you believe the thread has the wrong framework, etc. etc., but instead of making your claim and bowing out, you continue to pursue and persist and provoke and to argue and to throw stones and to resist making your own thread... on a topic that may arguable be related but in essence taking us away from the original intention(s) of the thread as outlined by OP.

(09-22-2014 02:15 PM)SteveCR Wrote:  

It's already been debunked (with the exception of epileptic patients). The academic and scientific communities have already tested this ad nauseam.

Yes, we know that the diet has been applied to epileptic patients including children. There is also evidence in Alzheimer patients and there are a lot of non-mainstream discussion of low carb high fat and attempts to figure out proper balance with how low can you go with carbs or how high can you go with fats. Your outright assertion that low carb high fat has been debunked is attempting to assert authority without showing any authority... in other words you are seemingly continuing attempt to negate our conversation, herein on the topic of the thread.

(09-22-2014 02:15 PM)SteveCR Wrote:  

There is already entirely too much evidence supporting CICO and debunking low carb. Why do you keep on trying to keep it alive?

I am NOT trying to keep anything alive. To the extent that we may NOT be distracted by your baloney, we are merely attempting to have a conversation regarding what guys do in the frame of low carb high fat.. which is alive and well in some of the practices of guys on this forum, including this thread (to the extent that they are NOT turned away or distracted by the likes of guys like you attempting to reframe the conversation into something that it was NOT intended to be).

(09-22-2014 02:15 PM)SteveCR Wrote:  

Go get a degree in nutrition and watch what they teach. Learn from first-hand experience through your clients what actually works.

We do NOT need to have any degree in nutrition to meaningfully talk about these kinds of questions and to challenge mainstream dogma (including various frameworks that are taught registered dieticians or any other supposed medical/nutrition expert).

Again, you have done this before.. attempting to claim you have higher authority.. which ends up being largely smoke and mirrors... and fails to meaningfully contribute.. rather than attempt to bash ideas of other guys.

[JayJuanGee]

(09-22-2014 03:07 PM)Bilboswaggins Wrote:  

(09-22-2014 02:02 PM)JayJuanGee Wrote:  

(09-22-2014 09:09 AM)Bilboswaggins Wrote:  

I can't say it better than good ol' Berkhan, so here are two articles that are right on money:

http://www.leangains.com/2010/06/malcolm...diets.html

http://www.leangains.com/2009/02/low-carb-talibans.html

Bilboswaggins:

I make the same suggestion to you as I had already made to SteveCR regarding starting your own thread touting the advantages of carbs or whatever other mainstream ideas you want to propogate - because otherwise what you seem to be attempting to accomplish is to derail, divert and distract this thread with a variety of information that guys can find through a large number of mainstream sources...

You are NOT telling us anything new and you are NOT really contributing to the ideas of the thread and the guys pursuit of knowledge concerning low carb / high fat.

Surely, there is NO real problem to provide information that brings into question some of the premises of the thread - but really, those kinds of ideas challenging the premises of the thread can be found all over the place.. and what you are doing seems to be more of a form of trolling rather than contributing...

I would surmise if you frame your questions or issues in an appealing way, you may be able to get some guys to interact on those ideas regarding the benefits of carbs and/or calorie counting in another thread.

Well, if you actually read through the articles I linked to then you would understand that I'm simply trying to get to the root of low-carb dieting and provide insight as to WHY different set-ups work and why all of them have their own ups and downs. This thread started out as a datasheet on one persons experience regarding low-carb diets and turned into a debate where one side is saying that it is the holy grail of body recompositon and the other side trying to prove that other methods also work. I believe there's no harm in giving people a variety of set-ups to choose from, especially when the other ways are proven to provide the same results. Kind of like teaching someone to fish instead of giving him the fish.

I was not trying to derail the thread, I just left a few interesting and true nuggets of wisdom for lurkers to read, so they can formulate their own opinion. As to mainstream information, no, not really. Although leangains and intermittent fasting as a whole has changed into a bandwagon on its own, there's lots of good information on that site about the science behind dieting, breaking myths regarding dieting and much much more. Kind of like the red-pill of fitness industry actually.

The thing is, the actual 'mainstream' of todays dieting world is trying to find a magic diet or solution for all your problems, but in reality eating your macroes in a non-stupid way and counting your calories is all you need to know. Paleo, low-carb, Atkins diet, you name it. Sadly, a lot of people get caught up in advice given by people with good intentions but lack of knowledge in the basics. Everyone wants to hide their failures behind a diet 'not working' when actually they're just making excuses for not calculating their caloric needs and eating in accordance to it.

To the extent that you are striving to expand the conversation of this thread by challenging some of the premises of this thread can be helpful, and I have NO problem with that, if you are NOT insisting to reframe our conversation here and to merely point out information that may be helpful.

I looked through the articles and I am sufficiently familiar with the various arguments in the articles; however, the articles also do NOT seem to directly relate to the topic of this thread. We may have a difference of opinion to the extent that you may feel that they do contribute to the topic of the thread.

Regarding bringing up topics to challenge the theme of any thread, there may be a point, however, when we are getting derailed and distracted from the areas of discussion that the thread intends to explore, and your further explanation seems to support that your intention was NOT to derail and distract from this thread, but that your intention was just to provide a viewpoint that may be helpful for guys reading this to better consider the various propositions of the thread...and what may work or NOT. Accordingly, you made your point, so I am NOT sure if there is more of a point to be made with further pursuing your points.

Overall, I think that you personally are buying too much into mainstream frameworks that are in tension with the low carb high fat views, and you have a right to believe that, and overall, I think that you made your points and we can see that your point has a potential to get us away from the various propositions of the thread, which it seems that guys here would like to explore... because that is why OP seemed to have made this thread.. and you have a right and ability to make your own thread to purport those other lifestyle and dietary framework views.

[Bilboswaggins]

Actually, I use the low-carb/high-fat framework on my rest days, but not getting enough carbs on training days hampers both my psyche and recovery. I feel that anything below 30 or so carbs (today for example, my only carbs came from 2 pears) isn't optimal for my personal functioning, especially in the long run. But using it on rest days has had a good effect and I'm continuing to use it. This may be not the case when not training, but I can feel the need for some sugars after a hard training session.

I agree that it would be wise not to further derail the thread and I'd like to hear experiences of others using low-carb/high-fat set-up and training.

[JayJuanGee]

(09-22-2014 04:56 PM)Bilboswaggins Wrote:  

Actually, I use the low-carb/high-fat framework on my rest days, but not getting enough carbs on training days hampers both my psyche and recovery. I feel that anything below 30 or so carbs (today for example, my only carbs came from 2 pears) isn't optimal for my personal functioning, especially in the long run. But using it on rest days has had a good effect and I'm continuing to use it. This may be not the case when not training, but I can feel the need for some sugars after a hard training session.

I agree that it would be wise not to further derail the thread and I'd like to hear experiences of others using low-carb/high-fat set-up and training.

I have been doing low carb high carb for nearly 3 years, and I have NOT seen a reduction in energy, due to low carbs and I am pretty active with dancing and I even ran a marthon with it...

I know that there can be issues switching over to burning fat, if we are so used to burning glucose for energy.. so, yes, it would be good to hear about the experiences of other guys...

I realize that it can be difficult to measure macros;however, what is your approximate percentages of carbs, fat and proteins.. and how you may differ the intake based on your anticipated activities...


My ballpark would be that mine is approximately:

15-30% Carbs

25-40% protein

30-60% fat

Then within those categories, that is another story.

[Slobodan]

Well,

I thank you very much for this extremely helpful post, I just ate so much shit last weeks, I felt all the time having a blur mind, cannot think clearly, tired easily, etc... I think I'm under diabete type 1 funny enough, after all the shit i've did lol I can imagine why is it.
I'm also constantly updating my diet. For info, I'm a skinny guy and I can eat A LOT and not get overwheight, it seems I have a very strong gut system idk. But I know better what to avoid now thanks man.

[Nitro]

Keto diet saved me from Obesity. I did have a recent metabolism slowdown from not lifting consistently, but I'm currently fixing this and I can actually go outside in the summer and not feel like a blob. I'm still FAR from my goals but relative to where I was I've come a long way.

[roberto]

(09-21-2014 07:53 PM)Ziltoid Wrote:  

Have you considered the addition of carb cycling or a cheat day?
Never tried it personally, but I've heard in a few places that when on a low or no carb diet, picking a day or two a week to cheat and carb up results in faster and more extreme fat loss, and more efficient glycogen function (very important if you're lifting).

I found this helped a lot. Dirty carbs too. I ate like a dumped fat chick, whole tubs of Ben and Jerries.

I'm currently starting to go strict Keto again after the dreaded 'carb creep'. Nothing bad, just baked potatoes with my meats and salad, but when it's at 10pm and with as much butter as potato it's a recipe for disaster. So far so good, I was still relatively low carb so the keto flue hasn't really got me this time around.