[OSL]

(my newest post, can be found here with pics http://www.youngmobileglobal.com)

How much money would you need every month to be able to do what you really want to do with your time?

I have a friend who makes 4K USD every month working on his laptop from Thailand. Another friend of mine is in finance in NYC and making 8K USD. At the end of the day, after taxes and cost of living, they are saving the same exact amount of money.

The critical difference is that my friend in Thailand is completely in control of where he can work and when he wants to do it. My friend in New York has aged considerably in the last three years since he began. He went from healthy and lean to a balding, chain smoking, and obese alcoholic.

In addition, my entrepreneur friend’s income prospects are looking fantastic for the next two quarters. He’s booked long term projects that will actually have him matching my banker friend in terms of income in about 6-8 months.

I’m currently working on my own means of becoming location independent. I’m not afraid of long work hours, I’ve been through that before. Nothing pleases me more, actually, than becoming lost in an independent project and working on it for hours on end.

My greatest fear is wasting my time doing meaningless, tedious, and ultimately worthless work for someone else.

What would you do if your income were no longer dependent on you hauling your ass to an office 12 hours a day, 5-6 days a week?

I’d get into volunteer work for environmental projects, especially related to preservation of marine coastal areas.

I’d get back into Muay Thai and Hip Hop and Latin dance. I’d learn more about documentary making, which has always been a passion of mine. Ideally I’d like to find a way to merge these interests together.

Visions of doing these more enjoyable and meaningful things are what keeps me in on weekends, working on my independent projects, instead of getting obliterated drunk with the rest of Seoul to escape their miserable existences.

I actually overheard a conversation by a young Korean mother (I’m in Seoul) who was telling her mother that she wanted to move from Hyundai Building # 422 to Samsung Residence #823 because people there were richer and her kids could play with the richer kids. Also, by living in that building people at work would respect her more.

Are you fucking serious?

What are you working towards? Is it really worth it? What would you do if your income didn’t necessarily demand hours out of your day?

Income is important. We all need cash coming in. Are you counting the amount that is going out as well? Is the banking analyst throwing half his salary away to taxes and weekend binge drinking really richer than the freelance entrepreneur who, at the end of the day, has the same amount of money saved?

As I work in Seoul and see the same haggard and miserable faces trudging to their office jobs every morning, I realize that nobody will give us our time back – we really don’t know how precious it is.

Once you can put an actual price on the days slipping away that you’ll never get back, can the investment bank really say he is richer than the freelance entrepreneur?

[pitt]

Great topic, one that i have been debating about to myself.

In that case, your friend from Thailand has a richer life. 4000 dollars a month just on doing blogging or whatever is good money for our lifestyle. However i have met few ''business heads'' who are still trying to figure out what is going to give them money and they dont have anything coming in and during this time they could be working for a company and be saving some money. i also value my time but i wouldnt mind sacrificing my freedom for two or three years and then go back to the fun (its painful to sacrifice thoug, specially when you are used to a better lifestyle).

[Giovonny]

(09-29-2010 10:02 PM)youngmobileglobal Wrote:  

I have a friend who makes 4K USD every month working on his laptop from Thailand.

What does he do?

[nmmoooreland20]

Sure, the dude from Thailand and the junior banker may be saving the same amount now. But you also have to consider future earning potential.

The banker is on track for a cushy private equity / hedge fund job that can bring in over a million every year...

No one goes into banking to stay there. They understand the first 2-3 years will be hell, and then they’ll move on.

Actually, quite a few of the senior bankers I know only work like 10-4 when they’re even in the office.

[Docter]

Sounds like something straight out of the 4HWW.

I totally agree that time is more valuable than money. You can always make more money, you can't make more time.

Spend it wisely.

[Excelsior]

(12-03-2011 12:54 PM)nmmoooreland20 Wrote:  

Sure, the dude from Thailand and the junior banker may be saving the same amount now. But you also have to consider future earning potential.

The banker is on track for a cushy private equity / hedge fund job that can bring in over a million every year...

No one goes into banking to stay there. They understand the first 2-3 years will be hell, and then they’ll move on.

Actually, quite a few of the senior bankers I know only work like 10-4 when they’re even in the office.

Precisely. It is important to consider the endgame, which may be worth the 2-3 year struggle for some.

[garygroundwork]

good thread..

i have spent alot of years living overseas (europe, south america, asia) making jackshit money but having a wild time. it all left me with nothing but super memories...

now i have come home and am getting my shit together re finances etc. i will sacrifice 3 or 4 years of my life but am hoping i will be bettter off in the long run.

if i had my time again i would sacrfice my twenties to become super well off and then head overseas instead of the other way around.

the guy on 8k in the states will be beter off in the long run..the flipside to that is who know when u r gona get hit by a bus-u got to live ur life tot he fullest

its hard

[pitt]

Perfect comment garyground and that suits well with what i am doing now. You are the perfect example why many of us here shouldnt mind sacrificing our twenties and then reach our 30s with a substantial amount of cash that will allow us to live a better playboy lifestyle in contrast to the limited ones that some on here live, where you have to be counting every penny (cents).

However i advise cats to travel hard from 18 to the age of 24/25 so you get to feel what is like to be free and how happy you truly are when you are constantly travelling but when you are travelling, focus also on business, dont just travel for the sake of it. So use those university loans in a smart way, travel and invest at the same time..get that good degree..aim for that perfect job and then after lots of travelling you will know what are your favourite countries, how much will it take you to live there, how can you make lots of money and at the same time have the time to live there...from 18 to 25 should be discovery time, then from 25 to 30..you go hard on the business shit, sacrificing yourself..when you become 30, you may be wealthy enough to just travel around the world. I cant see a dude who smartly invested from young years and still get to his 40's broke as fuck. Thats just a no no.

(12-04-2011 03:08 AM)garygroundwork Wrote:  

good thread..

i have spent alot of years living overseas (europe, south america, asia) making jackshit money but having a wild time. it all left me with nothing but super memories...

now i have come home and am getting my shit together re finances etc. i will sacrifice 3 or 4 years of my life but am hoping i will be bettter off in the long run.

if i had my time again i would sacrfice my twenties to become super well off and then head overseas instead of the other way around.

the guy on 8k in the states will be beter off in the long run..the flipside to that is who know when u r gona get hit by a bus-u got to live ur life tot he fullest

its hard

[RichieP]

I dunno about you guys but the idea of party hard for a few yrs then sacrifice yourself for a few years just doesnt sit with me in practice

I like the approach the guy takes in "The Now Habit" (awesome book on procrastination & workaholism). His premise is that humans are primed for 3-5 hours QUALITY work per day and that's it. And if you dont get "playtime" every day then your health and work suffers - we've evolved to play every day, not work 12 hour days with no social contact. The latter is just bad for your health.

He says the most productive people he's come across, and he's made procrastination/productivity his his craft, are the people who do 3-5 hours quality work per day and still make time for "playtime" every day- socialising, sports, recreation, exercise, relationships.

I think that's the best approach really. Like, if you're really doing more than 5 hours work per day, are you really doing important shit? It's pretty hard to put in more than 5 quality hours of productivity. Most people "at work all day" average 3-4 hours of actual quality work. Your brain only fires on all cylinders for so long. Better to cut your time down, do the critical shit that takes the brainpower, then cut loose and make sure you get playtime every day.

The "busy work" or working for the sake of working even when your brain isnt in gear isnt productive, it's stressful and takes away valuable recharge time and playtime. I think this is what TF was trying to say in the four hour work week actually, but he sensationalised it too much and made it seem untenable.

I think if you're wasting your savings partying abroad, OR if you're a banker working 12 hour days running on caffeine and burning your adrenal glands out, both are dysfuntional. Humans need a life balanced productivity + playfulness. (yes the balance will shift as you focus more on one than the other, but it shouldnt be so extreme )

[OSL]

I want to make a note here that I wrote this post out of extreme frustration when I was working 15 hour days, 6-7 days a week, as a consultant in Seoul. Also I wrote this like 16 months ago, when my mind was in a very different place. At the time it was very difficult for me to see past the grinding hamsterwheel and all I could think about was escaping.

In retrospect, it was a very good decision to spend time in the professional workforce as the experience I gained there is critical to the company I'm starting up in Singapore. Moreover, I'm starting up with my former boss, who was the managing director of the office at the time. Had I not done this, I would not have gained the relevant experience, capital, and connections needed to make this company get off the ground.

I've more or less done a 180 on this topic. Between that insane workload, serious health problems, and a thesis that had to be translated into French and Chinese, I stopped posting on youngmobileglobal.com and shut the site down.

This is my philosophy now, I'm not saying you should follow it:

1. Grind hard for a couple years and get experience with great mentorship

2. While you're in this industry, find niches and explore dozens of opportunities for startups. I found that I faced a lot of criticism for being unfocused, erratic, and uncommitted in idea generation. I find this to be false, or at least misunderstood. I came up with dozens of ideas and carefully weeded out what I found to be good ideas from bad ideas over time. I'm now executing on the concept that makes the most sense after a long process of elimination.

3. Get a great partner and go for it

Take this all with a grain of salt. I can't speak with authority on this topic until I've successfully launched, brought to profitability, and sold my company.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm not going to be posting much on rooshvforum anymore.

I feel I've reached a limit with the value I can add to this forum.

If you want to get in contact, I'll still answer PMs if you have career or Asia specific questions.

[Vicious]

(12-04-2011 07:56 AM)youngmobileglobal Wrote:  

-------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm not going to be posting much on rooshvforum anymore.

I feel I've reached a limit with the value I can add to this forum.

If you want to get in contact, I'll still answer PMs if you have career or Asia specific questions.

I hope you'll consider this. I find your posts, with their focus on business through hard work rather than 4HWW to be a great addition to the poster flora. Despite being almost 10 years younger than me you are in a place where I hope to be in 5 years or so. Someone that has good through such labors in such "short" time is definitely adding value to the forum.

[sine wave killer]

(12-04-2011 07:56 AM)youngmobileglobal Wrote:  

I've more or less done a 180 on this topic. Between that insane workload, serious health problems, and a thesis that had to be translated into French and Chinese, I stopped posting on youngmobileglobal.com and shut the site down.

I was wondering what happened to your site, I had tried to click on the links but it kept saying the domain was unavailable.

I don't work in the finance industry, but more so in the education and entertainment fields and I've found your advice to be incredibly helpful and spot on (as well as inspiring).

[alchemist]

(12-04-2011 05:02 AM)RichieP Wrote:  

I like the approach the guy takes in "The Now Habit" (awesome book on procrastination & workaholism). His premise is that humans are primed for 3-5 hours QUALITY work per day and that's it. And if you dont get "playtime" every day then your health and work suffers - we've evolved to play every day, not work 12 hour days with no social contact. The latter is just bad for your health.

He says the most productive people he's come across, and he's made procrastination/productivity his his craft, are the people who do 3-5 hours quality work per day and still make time for "playtime" every day- socialising, sports, recreation, exercise, relationships.

My life has become so much more productive in all regards since I learned how to manage my time better. I'm working as a teacher in an international private school and although there is a perception that teaching is a cushy job with short hours, the reality can be very different if you don't stay on top of things. This is the first time I've worked for a private school and I've discovered it's essentially the same as working for any other private business, i.e. I have to do a lot of marketing/PR-type stuff and a serious amount of paperwork on top of my teaching. For my first month here I was snowed under and exhuasted but I've now settled into a routine where I stay late at work every Monday and Tuesday, go to bed early on Tuesday night and then leave at 4:00 on the dot every Wednesday, Thursday and Friday. I never take work home either. I often say that my weekend starts on Wednesday and I'm only half-joking; my evenings and weekends are now filled with things I want to, rather than have to do and it creates a positive cycle where I'm more productive at work as a result.

In many respects I do envy the completely location-independent guys on this forum, but then again my current situation is pretty good and something a lot of guys would kill for. I'm living in an interesting country with a very low cost of living and beautiful girls. Since I work as a teacher my holidays are better than the vast majority of the working population (8 weeks holiday every summer isn't bad) and although I'll never be a millionaire in this career, I can have a high quality of life and save here in Romania. Being my own boss definitely appeals and I'm in the very early stages of planning my own business ventures in the future, but for the time being I'm happy as I am. Although I have to answer to bosses, I also genuinely enjoy the work I do, something that can't be said for many of my friends.

My best friend at high school busted his ass at university to get a first-class honours degree and now works for a big outsourcing company back in Scotland. He does 12-hour days, lives on takeaways, goes out socialising a handful of times a year and is in a relationship which he recently admitted to me was based mostly on convenience and fear of loneliness. The last time I saw him he was a chain-smoking, fat, pasty mess and he looks 10 years older than he is. He might earn twice as much as me but I wouldn't swap places with him for all the money in the world.

[alb3]

(12-04-2011 05:12 PM)alchemist Wrote:  

(12-04-2011 05:02 AM)RichieP Wrote:  

I like the approach the guy takes in "The Now Habit" (awesome book on procrastination & workaholism). His premise is that humans are primed for 3-5 hours QUALITY work per day and that's it. And if you dont get "playtime" every day then your health and work suffers - we've evolved to play every day, not work 12 hour days with no social contact. The latter is just bad for your health.

He says the most productive people he's come across, and he's made procrastination/productivity his his craft, are the people who do 3-5 hours quality work per day and still make time for "playtime" every day- socialising, sports, recreation, exercise, relationships.

My life has become so much more productive in all regards since I learned how to manage my time better. I'm working as a teacher in an international private school and although there is a perception that teaching is a cushy job with short hours, the reality can be very different if you don't stay on top of things. This is the first time I've worked for a private school and I've discovered it's essentially the same as working for any other private business, i.e. I have to do a lot of marketing/PR-type stuff and a serious amount of paperwork on top of my teaching. For my first month here I was snowed under and exhuasted but I've now settled into a routine where I stay late at work every Monday and Tuesday, go to bed early on Tuesday night and then leave at 4:00 on the dot every Wednesday, Thursday and Friday. I never take work home either. I often say that my weekend starts on Wednesday and I'm only half-joking; my evenings and weekends are now filled with things I want to, rather than have to do and it creates a positive cycle where I'm more productive at work as a result.

In many respects I do envy the completely location-independent guys on this forum, but then again my current situation is pretty good and something a lot of guys would kill for. I'm living in an interesting country with a very low cost of living and beautiful girls. Since I work as a teacher my holidays are better than the vast majority of the working population (8 weeks holiday every summer isn't bad) and although I'll never be a millionaire in this career, I can have a high quality of life and save here in Romania. Being my own boss definitely appeals and I'm in the very early stages of planning my own business ventures in the future, but for the time being I'm happy as I am. Although I have to answer to bosses, I also genuinely enjoy the work I do, something that can't be said for many of my friends.

My best friend at high school busted his ass at university to get a first-class honours degree and now works for a big outsourcing company back in Scotland. He does 12-hour days, lives on takeaways, goes out socialising a handful of times a year and is in a relationship which he recently admitted to me was based mostly on convenience and fear of loneliness. The last time I saw him he was a chain-smoking, fat, pasty mess and he looks 10 years older than he is. He might earn twice as much as me but I wouldn't swap places with him for all the money in the world.

Sounds good. What part of Romania are you living in?

[RichieP]

alchemist, nice one!! That's a great example what I was trying to get across. That's very cool that you've made time for playtime from weds onwards. It's easy to fall into that trap of just "blah" time when you arent working, slightly tired, and just watching TV or doing chores but not really re-energising or refuelling. It's definitely something you've gotta consciously take the reigns of, I'm realising play is a basic human need really and you'll be more productive in the long term (along with happy & healthy) if you draw a line and MAKE time for it.

As I said, the book The Now Habit really hammered this home for me. And I've got one lined up called "The Power of Full Engagement" which sounds along similar lines.

[T and A Man]

(12-03-2011 12:54 PM)nmmoooreland20 Wrote:  

Sure, the dude from Thailand and the junior banker may be saving the same amount now. But you also have to consider future earning potential.

The banker is on track for a cushy private equity / hedge fund job that can bring in over a million every year...

No one goes into banking to stay there. They understand the first 2-3 years will be hell, and then they’ll move on.

Actually, quite a few of the senior bankers I know only work like 10-4 when they’re even in the office.

My response will be more in line with the alchemist. Sure the banker can earn millions, but for what? So he can consume more?

He can validate the other bankers by paying millions for a house in the hamptons and park his rolls royce beside theirs at whatever function they smooch at?

The dude in Thailand has freedom, ultimate freedom. The banker is captive to his job because his circle of peers ensures while he has a massive cash flow, he has massive expenditure keeping up with the Jones'. Keeping up with them is what is required to stay there, anyone who has seen these sort of circle up close can attest to this.

The dude in Thailand can pack up his laptop and move to another location on a whim. A banker can not leave his clients on 12 hours notice.

The banker may have a nice car, and fill his house up with more expensive, nice looking consumer items, but he isn't free.

[alchemist]

(12-04-2011 06:09 PM)alb3 Wrote:  

Sounds good. What part of Romania are you living in?

In Bucharest and loving every minute of it. Can't see myself moving back to the UK at any time soon but who knows what the future holds.

[alchemist]

(12-04-2011 07:28 PM)RichieP Wrote:  

alchemist, nice one!! That's a great example what I was trying to get across. That's very cool that you've made time for playtime from weds onwards. It's easy to fall into that trap of just "blah" time when you arent working, slightly tired, and just watching TV or doing chores but not really re-energising or refuelling. It's definitely something you've gotta consciously take the reigns of, I'm realising play is a basic human need really and you'll be more productive in the long term (along with happy & healthy) if you draw a line and MAKE time for it.

As I said, the book The Now Habit really hammered this home for me. And I've got one lined up called "The Power of Full Engagement" which sounds along similar lines.

Yeah, what you were saying about only being able to do 3-5 hours real productive work holds true for me. Much of what I do when I stay late at work on Mon/Tue nights involves planning; I try to be a good couple of weeks ahead of schedule and have things planned in detail. This way the actual teaching, which is the bread and butter of my job, falls into place much easier and is of much higher quality. By the time I get home at 7:00pm or so on Tuesday night I'm pretty tired but I get round this by cooking on Sunday so I can just heat up something on Mon/Tues and then going to bed pretty early on Tuesday night.

I don't mind if I have a couple of evenings a week where all I do is watch TV, surf the net or read, because I know the rest of my working work will be a breeze and I can spend the rest of my free time doing what I want. I'm definitely glad I decided to do this as it's improved my life immensely. In terms of game (which is what this board is ultimately about) being disciplined like this in your professional life removes the excuse that you're too busy/tired/stressed to go down the mall or a local bar on a Thursday night and do your 5 approaches.

[xsplat]

You can travel broke, and be working for a long term wealthy future, if you are willing to gamble that your talents will pay off in the long run.

I'm a terrible entrepreneur, with failures stacked upon failures, who nonetheless always had unreasonable confidence that I was actually a brilliant ideas man predestined to wealth. I lived hand to mouth for years, with occasional bouts of great income, before moving to SE Asia, where I again mostly lived hand to mouth. However in Asia you can live on very little, so being poor doesn't mean you need to get a real job. You can still keep plugging away with irrationally self confidence on your various projects.

And if you do that, eventually you'll stumble upon a winning formula. And even if you are not yet wise enough to know to focus on that forumula, time and more failures will teach you focus.

And an entrepreneur can make more than a wage earner.

Life as a permanent traveller can be more fun, adventurous, less stressful, and yield more sexual rewards than a life aimed at securely securing resources. You risk poverty and live in poverty year after decade. But it may turn out that those decades were a training that you can't get in any school, and you'll eventually find a venture that quickly stocks your safe with bullion.

[Lemmo]

Most people won't be faced with such an extreme choice (i.e., being a miserable workaholic or an unemployed drifter). An ideal option would be to get a good professional position in a fun overseas market (London, Hong Kong, Paris, etc.) where you are learning skills and developing contacts relevant to your long term career goal. Then, you can take the money you've saved, go to an obscure location and/or start your own business but you'll have some savings and some experience on your CV to fall back on.

[worldwidetraveler]

The best choice will always be a personal choice. One situation may seem deplorable simply because of what our ideals are when it could be a sound choice for someone else.

I wish I was happy with 4k a month. It would make life more simple in a way. I just love pushing myself, I love competition and I love the game of making money. So for me, I would choose neither. haha

I am doing my own thing and work a lot but I am happy with it. I will never retire but may cut down on the hours when I am 60. Maybe not...

[Nujabes]

Xsplat, what is it that you actually do to keep you travelling?

(12-05-2011 05:36 PM)xsplat Wrote:  

You can travel broke, and be working for a long term wealthy future, if you are willing to gamble that your talents will pay off in the long run.

I'm a terrible entrepreneur, with failures stacked upon failures, who nonetheless always had unreasonable confidence that I was actually a brilliant ideas man predestined to wealth. I lived hand to mouth for years, with occasional bouts of great income, before moving to SE Asia, where I again mostly lived hand to mouth. However in Asia you can live on very little, so being poor doesn't mean you need to get a real job. You can still keep plugging away with irrationally self confidence on your various projects.

And if you do that, eventually you'll stumble upon a winning formula. And even if you are not yet wise enough to know to focus on that forumula, time and more failures will teach you focus.

And an entrepreneur can make more than a wage earner.

Life as a permanent traveller can be more fun, adventurous, less stressful, and yield more sexual rewards than a life aimed at securely securing resources. You risk poverty and live in poverty year after decade. But it may turn out that those decades were a training that you can't get in any school, and you'll eventually find a venture that quickly stocks your safe with bullion.

[xsplat]

(12-06-2011 10:08 AM)Nujabes Wrote:  

Xsplat, what is it that you actually do to keep you travelling?

I do a few things. A little cosmetic surgery, a little corporate law, a little surfboard instruction. And odd jobs. My last project was helping out with some bridge engineering for a project in Taiwan. A few newspapers publish my advice column. I guess you could say I’m a dabbler.

[nmmoooreland20]

(12-06-2011 04:33 PM)xsplat Wrote:  

(12-06-2011 10:08 AM)Nujabes Wrote:  

Xsplat, what is it that you actually do to keep you travelling?

I do a few things. A little cosmetic surgery, a little corporate law, a little surfboard instruction. And odd jobs. My last project was helping out with some bridge engineering for a project in Taiwan. A few newspapers publish my advice column. I guess you could say I’m a dabbler.

I'm very curious as to how someone becomes a dabler. I mean it sounds coo, but who the fuck hires some random dude to perform cosmetoc surgery, corporate law, or engineering??

[November]

(12-06-2011 07:09 PM)nmmoooreland20 Wrote:  

(12-06-2011 04:33 PM)xsplat Wrote:  

(12-06-2011 10:08 AM)Nujabes Wrote:  

Xsplat, what is it that you actually do to keep you travelling?

I do a few things. A little cosmetic surgery, a little corporate law, a little surfboard instruction. And odd jobs. My last project was helping out with some bridge engineering for a project in Taiwan. A few newspapers publish my advice column. I guess you could say I’m a dabbler.

I'm very curious as to how someone becomes a dabler. I mean it sounds coo, but who the fuck hires some random dude to perform cosmetoc surgery, corporate law, or engineering??

I more or less do the same...

Become skilled (or at least knowledgable) in a variety of different skills and then find freelance work based on that. Generally, people won't just "hire some random dude", it's all about networking. If you meet the right people and have the knowledge, you can work in whatever industries you want with relatively few long-term commitments.