[Duke Castile]

I wrote this post in response to this RSDTyler guy advocating letting another man fuck "your" girl.

Personally, while I'm smashing a girl, I don't want another man near her. Once I get tired of her, I'll pass them along, but for the time I like her, she's off limits. That's just my preference.

There is no reason why you can't have a sluts loyalty. You just have to be better than anyone she's ever been with.

This is not hard to do since it's about perception.

I'd like a thread that gives different techniques for commanding loyalty from our harem.

I've included SOME of the things I do in my post.

I'm a big believer that people follow the same rules that other animals do in nature.

For example;

If you cannot physically dominate the girl you want to make loyal, you will not command her loyalty.

You don't have to be an Adonis /bodybuilder/ gym rat, but in game and life and everywhere else, you should be meeting certain physical standards.

Anyhow, I'm expecting THC, McQueen, MikeCF, Thedude3737 and other's to be able to add to this.

(oh and NSFW in the post)

[Virtus]

Fisto is spot on. Pretty much my default. fuck em right, hold em tight, treat them mean, keep em keen. playful physical reframes of situations, explicit verbal frames with stated expectations, rewards doled out upon execution and punishments metered out upon failure.

[Seth_Rose]

Quote:

The Forumla: Make them FEEL special + Treat them almost like shit.

Well said sir. Good article too.

[XXL]

this dude posts top notch stuff. very interesting..

yareallypua Wrote:

k so here's why 1) letting a girl fuck other guys doesn't pan out the way people instinctively think it logically would, and 2) girls don't have as much of an issue with the "I can fuck other girls but you can't fuck other guys" frame as people instinctively think they would:

Word Of Warning:
This isn't amateur shit. This isn't "oh I just read The Game and I negged a girl once and got laid!!" level game. And it's not "I've been reading the manosphere blogs for 5 years and have successfully talked to at LEAST 10 girls!!!" level game. And you'll probably fuck it up the first couple times and lose some awesome girls in the process because you're working with dynamics that most guys don't even see let alone jump in and start juggling. And you have to set this frame EARLY…if you're trapped in a monogamous marriage and looking to turn it around, shit, sorry man, you're pretty fucked, this'll all just cause massive chaos and drama for you because you're changing the frame on your girl…it can be done but it's a fuck-ton of work with waaaay higher and more varied risks and consequences if it blows up in your face. I feel bad for you if you didn't know about game when you fell for the societal "marriage and a white pickett fence" thing and promised monogamy but you're on your own.

Pre-Reqs
So first up you gotta' be secure as phuck for this one. No jealousy.

The Rules
1) Your girl comes first. Consider it a Hugh Hefner arrangement…he has a Primary girl and then the rest of them. Your girl is your Primary. That means if you have plans with her, you don't break them to fuck some other girl. That means that all your watching DVDs, cuddling, grocery shopping, holding hands, etc. shit is reserved for your Primary (you don't HAVE to follow this, you just need her to believe that this is how you feel/act…but you should follow it or you'll end up giving yourself drama down the road when you start to get attached to one of your FBs lol). If you run into your Primary and one of your FB's when you're out at the bar, your Primary gets your full attention and your FB can fuck off (you don't play the two off eachother or anything…ironically your FB will respect you more for ignoring her for your Primary because that's some high-value shit to her). If you're flirting with your FB at a bar and your Primary walks in, you ditch your FB ASAP and go spend the rest of the night with your Primary.

"but yareally that sounds beta and supplicating wahh wahhh"

No shit. What would be alpha is not having a Primary girlfriend to BEGIN with. But this guide isn't for guys who are just juggling fuckbuddies, this guide is for guys who want a long-term girlfriend they can have an actual relationship with but who want to fuck around on the side. So ya, there are some fucking rules to make it work.

2) This shit is DISCREET. Keep your hooking up discreet from your girl (unless she's into hearing details, some girls are. Or unless you need to make her jealous to stoke the fires a bit, but in that situ just be super subtle like coming home late or not answering your phone on a night out with the boys etc., you don't have to be like "So I was eating this chick out last night and…" lol). The discretion helps because it means she can imagine whatever she wants, so you might be railing some super hot chick in the ass 3 times in a night and fucking loving it but she'll imagine that the girl was some fat gross bar slut and that you didn't enjoy yourself…if you tell her what went on or show her the girl, you're gonna get drama. It also helps because she doesn't really know if you haven't fucked anyone else in months or if you're banging 10 girls on the side. If she knows who you're hooking up with and you're blatant about going out with those girls etc., when those girls aren't available and you're stuck staying home it'll be obvious to her that you're not getting laid and she'll just start extrapolating that as her winning you over or you being unattractive etc. etc. and you'll get drama.

The other reason to be discreet is that women fear social judgement. She'll date a player and be fine with it, until her friends see that player out with another girl and then hen-peck her with judgements telling her she has to ditch him etc. and then suddenly she'll have a problem with the arrangement she had no problem with before she had to face social judgement. So she gets to call you her Boyfriend and you call her your Girlfriend, and to her friends, family, etc. you're her man and you don't talk about other girls or about being in an open relationship etc. As far as anyone she knows is concerned, you are a traditional monogamous couple. The second any of them realize what's going on and start to judge her, she'll be forced by the social pressure to give you the "change or I'm outta' here" ultimatum and the relationship is over.

3) When you DO get into the discussion about why you don't want to promise monogamy and why you like open relationships and that she's allowed to fuck other guys, communicate the rules flat out like a motherfucker. ie – condoms are a must, get tested regularly, no seeing the hook-up person more frequently than your S.O., other people are for sex ONLY no watching movies or cuddling or getting dinner relationshippy stuff, etc. Other people are purely sex toys, there's no emotional commitment allowed. Don't be ambiguous about this shit because it'll bite you in the ass…you want an agreement so that if she DOES fuck around on you, it's more likely that she'll be safe about it and use a condom and not see the other guy frequently and stuff. If you don't set rules she won't have any guilt hanging over her head about letting the football team jizz in her or about going on lovey-dovey dates where she falls in love with another guy and ditches your relationship for a new one.

I know, I know, some of you guys are cringing right now. "ugh but I don't WANT her fucking other guys!" Shut the fuck up and keep reading, I'll get to why they don't fuck other guys in a minute…you have to understand the setup first.

Setting The Frame:
When you're first hooking up and transitioning into making her your girlfriend you want to do it slowly and resist it so she knows the whole "having a girlfriend" thing isn't really your deal. This'll set things up for down the road where you give her a speech along the lines of "but you're the ONE girl who won me over! I can't curb my player ways, I'm too used to having other girls in my life, but they don't mean anything to me the way YOU do."

The idea is that you don't want a girlfriend but she's somehow winning you over and you can't explain it. But that you're so "broken" that you can't just instantly change for her. Odds are when she met you you were playing the field, so this isn't something that'll come out of the blue. That's why you can't pull this off as easy in a marriage, because then she has years of reference experience of you being a beta monogamous dork and pitching this is incongruent and just makes her assume it's some sort of punishment instead of "the natural way of life" for you.

The Equality Ruse:
…but hey, it's okay, SHE'S free to fuck other guys too! See, babe? I'm compromising. I can't help the way I am, but I don't expect you to to be trapped like some slave. If I hook up with other people and expect you to be okay with it then you're allowed to as well. That's only fair!

Sounds logical, right? Fair's fair and all that. You're not being unreasonable…logically. This is a fair deal.

"but yareally you can't trust women!! if you let them they'll fuck anything they want and won't use condoms and ahhhh1!11111!!"

ya I know. But follow me here…what do we know about hypergamy? We know that women always want to fuck the highest status man. Unless they're a certain type of chick they're generally not looking to just rack up a million notches on the belt the way guys are. They're looking to hook up with guys that they perceive to have high value (whether he actually does have high value or not to the rest of the world).

So think of it like this: You've got this hot supermodel girlfriend but she's gonna let you fuck ANY fat ugly feminist girl you want. ANY of them. As long as the girl is fat, ugly, annoying, smells bad, etc. you can bang as many of them as you want. Hell, she'll even introduce you to them and set you up if you want to fuck them instead of her!! What a deal!!

…are you gonna' take it? No. Why? Because those girls aren't attractive to you. Ya, you have free reign to fuck them all but you're gonna fuck your supermodel girlfriend because she's the most attractive option.

Still with me? Okay so flip the genders. Now you're a high status badass alpha male boyfriend/husband (the equivalent of a hot supermodel girlfriend/wife) and you're letting her fuck any of the not-as-high-status guys (the equivalent of the fat ugly chicks) around her that she wants to. She can fuck all of them instead of you if she wants, you'll even introduce her to them, fuck it, sure, why not.

…is she gonna' take it? No. Why? Because those guys aren't attractive to her. Ya, she has free reign to fuck them all but she's gonna fuck her high status boyfriend because he's the most attractive option.

So you see, the whole frame is actually kind of a ruse. It's like offering someone part of your ice cream you don't REALLY want to share, just to look like a nice guy, but you know they don't like ice cream so it's a safe offer because they're not going to take it. They go "oh no thanks, it's okay" and you go "okay!" and lick away and enjoy that shit…hey, you offered!

Why She's Okay With This Frame:
Read this next line a million times till it's engrained in your head. If I knew how to bold, I'd bold it:

***A girl's biggest fear isn't that you'll fuck some other girl. It's that you'll replace her with that other girl.***

So all you have to do is assure her that any girl you hook up with is just meaningless. Ya, you fool around but you kick the girl out right after and don't sit and watch movies and cuddle and hold hands the way you do with HER (even if that's not true lol). And you'll always come back to her, and she's always going to be your priority…if you're out in public and run into both girls, your girl gets your attention and the other girl can fuck off. If you have plans with your girl and the other girl wants to make plans, too bad. etc. etc.

This takes some time to convince her of, and she won't like it at first and she'll shit-test the fuck out of your frame. But once you've banged a few girls discreetly on the side and you're still the usual awesome boyfriend you are, she'll start to accept that "oh, okay, he really DOES compartmentalize this stuff, sometimes when he's out some bar slut will jump him but she doesn't mean anything to him the way I do!" As long as you're congruent to this, it becomes acceptable and normal to her.

If your reason for playing the field is good (I like to go with not wanting to have a mid-life crisis and any regrets so I have to get this out of my system etc.) girls will even tell you they only want you but they understand you have to do what you're doing to get it out of your system. These girls are waiting for you to grow out of it and settle down with them. Odds are you probably will down the road, or at least settle to a point where you just hook up when your office puts you up in a hotel on a business trip and such (VS hitting the bars every weekend looking for more pussy).

Won't other girls mind?
Nah. It's up to you whether you want to tell the other girls about your Primary. I like to live pretty honestly just because I don't like guilt or drama and I've been in the PUA community long enough to know that you can get away with being a lot more honest than most of society would believe. I actually have a framed pic of my GF sitting on my nightstand. I don't turn it away or hide it when I have other girl's over. So far none of them has been freaked out and bailed once they saw the pic, but that's because I'm honest from the start and tell them yes, I have a GF, but we have an open relationship and she knows I fool around here and there when I'm on my own time.

You can lie and pretend not to have a GF though, they won't know lol But I've done that before and I just prefer the open honesty in terms of how I want to live my life as a man (up-front about who I am and my views/beliefs even if it means losing the girl VS scurrying around trying to pretend to be whatever I think the girl wants me to be…abundance VS scarcity).

Oh, and other girls main worry is actually just that your GF might be psycho and try to kill them lol I actually found that funny the first few times I heard girls say that…they worry about the same thing a guy worries about when he bangs a taken chick "am I gonna get beat up??" lol

Problems:
1) She might fuck a couple other guys, especially right at the start, just to shit-test you. You have to be congruent to the frame you set. Once she realizes you don't care and aren't jealous she'll go "oh, fuck, that didn't work at all…okay hamster let's figure out how to land him and focus on him 24/7 instead of other guys!!" If you get pissy then she'll just keep doing it until you cave and promise monogamy (being a beta pussy who promises shit he doesn't want to promise because he's scared to lose the girl…what's next, you going to pretend to like romantic comedies and hate football?).

2) Her friends and family will fuck it up for you hardcore if they figure out what's going on. The first few months it's no biggie, and way down the road when she's learned to say "it works for us" it's no biggie, but that middle period where it looks like she's landed you and you're finally being won over, that's where the social pressure grenade is gonna' do the most damage.

Commanding Monogamy:
Some guys would rather just say "I'm going to fuck what I want, but you're not allowed to fuck anyone but me." This can be done, but 1) it takes a super strong frame, 2) you have to be prepared to lose a lot of girls who aren't down for this, and 3) you're going to need a pretty submissive chick who isn't brainwashed with Feminist mantras about equality.

There are more girls up for obeying this than you'd think, yes, even in North America…the thing is they're only up for this with guys who are 100% congruent to it, like guys who believe 100% that this is just the way men and women are supposed to be. Guys from foreign countries with strong religious beliefs (picture the stern authoritative brown/latin type guy who doesn't debate with a girl about why she can't wear that slutty dress out he just said "No. Go change." and expects her to obey) can pull this off way easier than a computer nerd from North America who's just learned to bang girls in the past couple years.

So your pool of girls up for that arrangement is smaller, and the pool of guys who can pull that off (odds are if you're reading this blog you're probably not one of those guys) is even smaller.

Setting the Open Relationship frame like I described above is a much higher percentage play for most guys.

Conclusion:
There ya go, this is all field-tested by lots of PUAs and naturals over the years, including myself. If you're not at a point in game where you believe that this is possible or that it's something you can do consistently, that's cool. Just understand that you've just been socially conditioned your entire life to think that way.

And if you're someone who's going to reply with "no way because she would think this and this and then this would happen!" and you haven't set this arrangement up with at least a few girls, quit being a keyboard jockey and go talk to some girls lol

http://heartiste.wordpress.com/2012/06/2...ent-347499

[Aliblahba]

And there's always the alternative:
See how happy they are? Women love being abused, and will never leave your side.


   



   



   


Except this one. But she is almost smiling. Go ahead girl, turn that frown upside down......or I'll give you another blackeye.


   


   

[Beyond Borders]

(07-26-2013 04:14 PM)Aliblahba Wrote:  

And there's always the alternative:
See how happy they are? Women love being abused, and will never leave your side.

I SAW YOU FUCKING LOOKING AT HIM YOU WHORE!!!!!!!!

[Duke Castile]

XXL,

The commanding monogamy part in the 2nd half or yaareally's article is what my post is all about.

[soup]

Great article fisto +1- this is classic and deftly articulates crazy insightful aspects of game.

[reaper23]

yareally hits the ball out of the park on that one.

and i know from first hand real time right now experience.

my girl of three years always knew that i wanted to be non monogamous. well one day about two months she's like, ok lets try it. we set all kinds of rules and what not and set out into the world to fuck other people.

two months later, i've been cleaning up and banging one chick steady with a whole list of pipelined chicks. she has gone on one date with a guy she knew she would never even like.

slowly things start to change.

first she says, ok, she won't fuck other guys but i can fuck 8 new girls per year, condoms only and me not performing oral.

fine i say, great

then a few days later its, i'm worried about STIs, no new girls

then a few days later its, i'm not comfortable with this thing at all.

the problem I had was that I went too gung ho and then even did some post sex girlfriendy shit with the one girl i had banged regularly. we spent the morning fucking and then hung out at a coffee shop afterwards 'working.'

my girl, who is a 8.5 solid, just started to lose a grip on the whole thing and finally shut it down yesterday.

where did i go wrong?

1) I went too much too fast. i'm pretty good at okcupid and had quality (7's) chicks lined up pretty soon. steady stream.

2) I fucked the same girl too many times and started doing datey shit with her, even though GF said she was down.

3) I didnt encourage her enough to go find another dude, and would still express some possessiveness, when the real key was to just let her go because there was NO WAY SHE WAS EVER DOING IT.

so now i'm back in a monogamous relationship after having been out there. the taste was nice, but torturous.

but i think now that we've tried this we can try it again later and i'll know better what to do.

[Duke Castile]

Reaper,

Your wrong move was supplicating from the begining. If you think back to the very start, you were giving in.

When you make it clear, on on no uncetain terms, that you are going to do what you want, and that she can take it or leave it (this takes balls because she may in fact leave it) she will default to your frame. The this is how it is, go fuck yourself if it insn't ok with you.

It's a zen thing. You have to hold on by letting go.

I know it's weird, but once you do it successfully, it's par for the course.

[Nomad77]

Loyalty is a product of either fear or love. Since I will assume you are not going to beat her into submission then you have only the other option.

And it all begins with getting her respect. If a woman cannot respect you she cannot love you. And as long as you have a woman's love you will have her loyalty and everything else.

And Fisto, most guys don't have the strong personality you do to pull off what you are saying. Creating that strong a Frame is not easy for the average guy.

[Duke Castile]

Then men will be happy to know, I have a system for getting there.

[Nomad77]

You have a system for creating a strong frame?

[Duke Castile]

and more, I think I have discovered 4 key dimensions on a genetic level that men have to be productive in to find true happiness.

I'm dead serious.

[MikeCF]

The first principle of my game is: Assert ownership.

http://dangerandplay.com/2012/05/21/fift...ownership/

[Nomad77]

Oh, I don't doubt you at all. Have you written up anything about this?

(07-27-2013 01:04 AM)Fisto Wrote:  

and more, I think I have discovered 4 key dimensions on a genetic level that men have to be productive in to find true happiness.

I'm dead serious.

[Statsi]

Fisto I await your frame building and happiness causing posts... Rok post?

[reaper23]

(07-26-2013 11:52 PM)Fisto Wrote:  

Reaper,

Your wrong move was supplicating from the begining. If you think back to the very start, you were giving in.

When you make it clear, on on no uncetain terms, that you are going to do what you want, and that she can take it or leave it (this takes balls because she may in fact leave it) she will default to your frame. The this is how it is, go fuck yourself if it insn't ok with you.

It's a zen thing. You have to hold on by letting go.

I know it's weird, but once you do it successfully, it's par for the course.

i should have explained more.

i have spent a couple of years running with 4-6 girls at a time. all of them got the same speech, you can see other people and i'm seeing other people and take it or leave it.

but then this one girl came along, a 8.5 in a sea of 7's, the best lay, the most submissive and sexual, the hottest, the etc etc...and eventually all my desires for other chicks went away. then this girl and i decided to get serious, move in together and have a kid.

throughout the relationship she knew that i wanted/needed an open relationship. so recently we finally agree that the time was now, and we open it up with one key caveat - the other can end it at any time.

this is the mother of my daughter and not some chick i'm banging or even a tight girlfriend, she is someone i'm committed to building a life with.

she is ten years younger than i am, she doesnt need me to marry her, she is totally submissive, cooks every day, dresses up, looks hot, runs, and takes great care of my child - all while working a full time job too. yes, she is _different_.

so in this situation, the get the fuck out of here option doesn't really apply because, well, open relationship is not more important to me than my family.

that said, it is highly important to me and will be be coming back eventually.

girlfriend cited STI concerns and complications for pregnancy as the main reason and i believe her to some degree. once we're done with the second kid things will open up again.

hell, she said that in a few weeks we could even try again. but she has totally flat out said she is not interested in other dudes.

anyway, this thread just hit home because i'm dealing all this right this very second.

[Duke Castile]

Reaper, Yeah damn that makes things much more complicated.

Here's another couple hangups I have with yareally's method;

The girl he's with is going to go out one night, be pissed off, and fuck some other guy.

And let's be honest, we've all had these conversations with women, doesn't matter what the subject is. You think you make yourself clear, there's an understanding, you go over several points, and then boom. Next time the same thing comes up it's like that whole conversation never happened.

That's how it is with all this "only condoms, no dates, etc"

All that shit goes out the window under the right (or wrong) circumstances.

Girls can rarely have emotionless sex the way men can.

[Duke Castile]

(07-27-2013 02:20 AM)Statsi Wrote:  

Fisto I await your frame building and happiness causing posts... Rok post?

I'm writing a book on it but I think I could sum it up in an article at some point to introduce the concepts.

If Roosh or whomever at RoK are interested I'd be glad to submit it.

[bacan]

I have managed a situation like this. Sweet girlfriend with one sided open relationship. But it hurt her too much after a while as she loved me more.. Not sure it's sustainable. I also lost a lot of desire for other girls. And my enjoyment was even less.. Hm

[DVY]

@Fisto- I read your post on STW, but how much does your experience match for America (considering you just spent considerable time in Asia)?

[Duke Castile]

(07-29-2013 01:29 AM)DVY Wrote:  

@Fisto- I read your post on STW, but how much does your experience match for America (considering you just spent considerable time in Asia)?

I think worldwide, most girls fall into these ranges. The only Variance being the relativity of what a 6 or 8 is in whatever place you are.

[DLZ]

Am I the only one who feels it's pointless to try to "tame" a looser girl? It just seems like a futile exercise in ego validation, unless you're trying to turn her out for personal gain.

Anyways, my take/personal style: If you want her to keep coming back for dick, just fuck her like you own her and ignore her the rest of the time. If she's really into you, she'll start to pressure you for more commitment and you can a drop a little bit of vulnerability game eventually. Don't sell the whole farm, bait her into thinking she's STARTING to get you by the balls and then change up on her. Rinse and repeat until she's like putty.

[Duke Castile]

(07-29-2013 02:55 PM)DLZ Wrote:  

Am I the only one who feels it's pointless to try to "tame" a looser girl? It just seems like a futile exercise in ego validation, unless you're trying to turn her out for personal gain.

Anyways, my take/personal style: If you want her to keep coming back for dick, just fuck her like you own her and ignore her the rest of the time. If she's really into you, she'll start to pressure you for more commitment and you can a drop a little bit of vulnerability game eventually. Don't sell the whole farm, bait her into thinking she's STARTING to get you by the balls and then change up on her. Rinse and repeat until she's like putty.

I think you missed the point.