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At Least 77 Dead in Spain Train Accident
#1

At Least 77 Dead in Spain Train Accident

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wire...n-19763799


By ALAN CLENDENNING and HERNAN MUNOZ Associated Press
SANTIAGO DE COMPOSTELA, Spain July 24, 2013 (AP)

Relatives of victims from a train crash in northwestern Spain sobbed and hugged each other Friday near a makeshift morgue in a sports arena for the victims as the death toll rose to 78 and investigators tried to determine the cause.

The train jumped the tracks and at least one passenger told a radio station that it appeared to be going very fast as it went into a pronounced curve while approaching the station in this Catholic shrine city on the eve of a major religious festival.

Seventy-three people were found dead at the scene of the accident and four died in hospitals, said Maria Pardo Rios, spokeswoman for the Galicia region's main court. Another person also died, bringing the toll to 78, but no information was immediately available on where, said an Interior Ministry official who spoke on condition of anonymity because of ministry policy.

At least 141 people were injured — some critically — after the eight-carriage train carrying 218 passengers derailed about an hour before sunset Wednesday night.

Authorities did not identify any possible accident causes, but a spokeswoman with Spain's Interior Ministry said Thursday that the possibility that the derailment was caused by a terrorist attack had been ruled out. She also spoke on condition of anonymity because of the ministry policy.

It was Spain's deadliest train accident since 1972, when a train collided with a bus in southwestern Spain, killing 86 people and injuring 112. Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy, who was born in Santiago de Compostela, toured the crash scene Thursday with rescue workers and then went to a hospital to visit injured passengers.

A grim Rajoy told reporters that "for a native of Santiago, like me, this is the saddest day." He said investigations had been launched by judicial authorities and the Public Works Ministry to determine the cause as quickly as possible but declined to take questions from reporters.

Officials in the city canceled ceremonies for its annual religious festival that attracts tens of thousands of Christians from around the world.

"July 24 will no longer be the eve of a day of celebration but rather one commemorating one of the saddest days in the history of Galicia," said Alberto Nunez Feijoo, president of the region of Galicia where Santiago de Compostela is the capital.

Rescue workers spent the night searching through smashed cars alongside the tracks, and Pardo said it was possible that the death toll could go higher. Many of the dead were taken to a makeshift morgue set up in the city's largest indoor sports arena, where police and court officials were identifying the bodies. Relatives of victims sobbed and hugged each other outside at a nearby information point for families seeking news about their missing loved ones.

A regional Galicia health official, Rocio Mosquera, told reporters at a press conference early Thursday that 141 passengers from the train had been treated at area hospitals, with their conditions ranging from light injuries to serious. Some were still in surgery hours after the crash, while others had been treated and released.

As dawn arrived, cranes brought to the scene were used to lift the cars off the tracks and rescue workers were seen collecting passenger luggage and putting it into a truck next to the tracks.

The site itself was a scene of horror immediately after the crash. Smoke billowed from at least one car which caught fire; another broke into two parts. Residents of the urban neighborhood alongside the tracks struggled to help victims out of the toppled cars.

Rescue workers lined up bodies covered in blankets alongside the tracks and some passengers were pulled out of broken windows. Television images showed one man atop a carriage lying on its side, using a pickaxe to try to smash through a window. Residents said other rescuers used rocks.

State-owned train operator Renfe said in a statement an unspecified number of staff were also on board the train during the 8.41 p.m. (1841 GMT) crash on a section of tracks about 2.5 miles (4 kilometers) from Santiago de Compostela that came online two years ago. Spanish media said the train had two conductors aboard and that both survived.

Renfe and Adif, the state-owned company which manages tracks, signals and other railway infrastructure, were cooperating with a judge who has been appointed to investigate the accident, Renfe said.

It was the third major rail disaster this month. On July 12, six people were killed and nearly 200 were injured when four cars of a passenger train derailed south of Paris.

On July 6, 72 cars carrying crude oil derailed in Lac-Megantic, Ontario, setting off explosions and fires which killed 47 people.

Catholic pilgrims converge on the Santiago de Compostela annually to celebrate a festival honoring St. James, the disciple of Jesus whose remains are said to rest in a shrine. The city is the main gathering point for the faithful who make it to the end of the El Camino de Santiago pilgrimage route that has drawn Christians since the Middle Ages.

The accident created a scene that was "Dante-esque," Feijoo said. He declared seven days of mourning to honor the victims.

Several injured passengers said they felt a strong vibration just before the cars jumped the tracks, said Xabier Martinez, a photographer who talked with them after arriving at the scene as rescue workers were removing dozens of bodies.

Passenger Ricardo Montero told the Cadena Ser radio station that "when the train reached that bend it began to flip over, many times, with some carriages ending up on top of others, leaving many people trapped below. We had to get under the carriages to get out."

Another passenger, Sergio Prego, told Cadena Ser the train "traveled very fast" just before it derailed and the cars flipped upside down, on their sides and into the air.

"I've been very lucky because I'm one of the few able to walk out," he said.

The Alvia 730 series train started from Madrid and was scheduled to end its journey at El Ferrol, about 95 kilometers (60 miles) north of Santiago de Compostela. Alvias are high-speed but do not go as fast as Spain's fastest bullet trains called AVEs.

The maximum Alvia speed is 250 kph (155 mph) on tracks made especially for the AVEs, and they travel at a maximum speed of 220 kph (137 mph) on normal gauge rails.

Other major train crashes in Spain over the decades include a 1944 accident on a train traveling from Madrid to the Galicia region that killed 78 people. A subway crash in the southern city of Valencia killed 43 people in 2006 and was blamed on excessive speed. The Madrid train bombings carried out in 2004 killed 191 people.

———

Clendenning reported from Madrid. Ciaran Giles contributed from Madrid.
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#2

At Least 77 Dead in Spain Train Accident

Quote: (07-25-2013 06:50 AM)pitt Wrote:  

Other major train crashes in Spain over the decades include a 1944 accident on a train traveling from Madrid to the Galicia region that killed 78 people. A subway crash in the southern city of Valencia killed 43 people in 2006 and was blamed on excessive speed. The Madrid train bombings carried out in 2004 killed 191 people.

———

Clendenning reported from Madrid. Ciaran Giles contributed from Madrid.

Sad story.

I was actually in Alcala De Henares, where the train left going to Madrid when this happened. I had been there for about two weeks, spoke almost no Spanish, and had no clue what was going on when the school headmaster came in to tell everyone.

They found the van with audio tapes and bomb equipment two blocks from my apartment, right where the RENFE train station was.

Fucked way to start three months in Spain.

I remember the teachers from my language school gathered everyone to go to a rally in the town square. All I could think was if I was a terrorist, this is exactly where I would strike next. Luckily that didn't happen.
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#3

At Least 77 Dead in Spain Train Accident

Quote: (07-25-2013 07:03 AM)RioNomad Wrote:  

Quote: (07-25-2013 06:50 AM)pitt Wrote:  

Other major train crashes in Spain over the decades include a 1944 accident on a train traveling from Madrid to the Galicia region that killed 78 people. A subway crash in the southern city of Valencia killed 43 people in 2006 and was blamed on excessive speed. The Madrid train bombings carried out in 2004 killed 191 people.

———

Clendenning reported from Madrid. Ciaran Giles contributed from Madrid.

Sad story.

I was actually in Alcala De Henares, where the train left going to Madrid when this happened. I had been there for about two weeks, spoke almost no Spanish, and had no clue what was going on when the school headmaster came in to tell everyone.

They found the van with audio tapes and bomb equipment two blocks from my apartment, right where the RENFE train station was.

Fucked way to start three months in Spain.

I remember the teachers from my language school gathered everyone to go to a rally in the town square. All I could think was if I was a terrorist, this is exactly where I would strike next. Luckily that didn't happen.

This happened yesterday or two days ago if i am not wrong. Are you currently in Spain?
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#4

At Least 77 Dead in Spain Train Accident

The part in bold. 2004 train bombing.
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#5

At Least 77 Dead in Spain Train Accident

Horrible horrible event.

The crash was recorded by cctv, it's on youtube.

The train was obviously going much too fast and just derails in a sharp turn.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KW7TKLrrkFY


You'd think a high speed track like that had automated systems in place that override any speeding attempt by the train engineer. Clearly something has gone awfully awfully wrong here.
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#6

At Least 77 Dead in Spain Train Accident

Quote: (07-25-2013 07:38 AM)SexyBack Wrote:  

Horrible horrible event.

The crash was recorded by cctv, it's on youtube.

The train was obviously going much too fast and just derails in a sharp turn.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KW7TKLrrkFY


You'd think a high speed track like that had automated systems in place that override any speeding attempt by the train engineer. Clearly something has gone awfully awfully wrong here.

Spain's financial hardships as of late may have possibly led to cutbacks in safety systems for transportation systems.
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#7

At Least 77 Dead in Spain Train Accident

Quote: (07-25-2013 07:38 AM)SexyBack Wrote:  

You'd think a high speed track like that had automated systems in place that override any speeding attempt by the train engineer. Clearly something has gone awfully awfully wrong here.

The Driver is screwed, as once they analyse the black box It'll be clear he was going too fast.

Why he was going too fast is an interesting question. The way the train line was designed contributed to the accident imo (and will mean RENFE copping involuntary manslaughter charges). The high speed a few km from the station has a max speed of 200 kph. When the High Speed line ends the max speed drops to 80 kph. the problem here is that the signalling systems change as well. On the High Speed line the signalling would have slowed down the train in time, but on the regular line this wouldn't happen (In Spain, ironically this wouldn't have happened in Portugal either)

Now I haven't been to that part of Spain, but someone on another site posted a video of the line. You're on the 200 kph line and the High Speed line ends just after a tunnel, and just before a left bend (where the crash happened) From what I can see, if you miss your braking point, because of where the signalling systems change over you are fucked. Either the High Speed signalling should have continued beyond that bend, or it should have been programmed to slow the train down at least 1 Km before that bend. Because it wasn't:

1) The driver is going to jail for a long time (Luckily he's still alive so finding out what really happened should be easy)
2) Some managers at RENFE are going to jail/getting fined big time
3) Expect to see this on a future episode of "Seconds From Disaster".
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#8

At Least 77 Dead in Spain Train Accident

Quote: (07-25-2013 07:26 PM)Super Etoile Wrote:  

Quote: (07-25-2013 07:38 AM)SexyBack Wrote:  

You'd think a high speed track like that had automated systems in place that override any speeding attempt by the train engineer. Clearly something has gone awfully awfully wrong here.

The Driver is screwed, as once they analyse the black box It'll be clear he was going too fast.

Why he was going too fast is an interesting question. The way the train line was designed contributed to the accident imo (and will mean RENFE copping involuntary manslaughter charges). The high speed a few km from the station has a max speed of 200 kph. When the High Speed line ends the max speed drops to 80 kph. the problem here is that the signalling systems change as well. On the High Speed line the signalling would have slowed down the train in time, but on the regular line this wouldn't happen (In Spain, ironically this wouldn't have happened in Portugal either)

Now I haven't been to that part of Spain, but someone on another site posted a video of the line. You're on the 200 kph line and the High Speed line ends just after a tunnel, and just before a left bend (where the crash happened) From what I can see, if you miss your braking point, because of where the signalling systems change over you are fucked. Either the High Speed signalling should have continued beyond that bend, or it should have been programmed to slow the train down at least 1 Km before that bend. Because it wasn't:

1) The driver is going to jail for a long time (Luckily he's still alive so finding out what really happened should be easy)
2) Some managers at RENFE are going to jail/getting fined big time
3) Expect to see this on a future episode of "Seconds From Disaster".

So the driver and/or the system was fucked up.

Most of the time on train systems the signalling system does indeed have some type of trigger to freeze or at least alert the driver. Generally they would of been prompted well before in the tunnel portion. The gap after the tunnel would of generally been a buffer point in which the driver or the system would of been able to halt shit if things go wrong. I am just talking off knowledge of Subway or EMU technology which is similar, just at slower speeds with more sensitive signalling due to more frequencies on the lines.

Even hood technology Amtrak Acela has automatic safety systems in place, and its the ghetto version of "High-speed" rail compared to its European and Asian counterparts.

I take the impression that higher speeds past signal targets have to be overridden by somebody higher up then the driver in the cabin? There in most cases would be a central node with somebody sitting at a desk seeing a flashing red marker on the routing for a operator that is fucking up and if the system isn't doing to down-speed then the system manager would. Its easy to blame the dope at the controls but if he didn't know that he was approaching the lower-speed portion how can we fully blame him, he is going 200+ miles/hr somebody with a better big-picture vantage point has to make that call (both are idiots).

In Quebec, Canada a lazy freight corp (MM&A Railways) in the states was running a line in rural Quebec and got sloppy with its checks and system management and this happened:

[Image: lac-megantic_2-401x349.jpg]
[Image: 8639482.jpg?size=620x400s]

Some dope forgot to put down breaks and a train basically went back down and smashed into another train down the line and blew up half the town in the process.

You would think its easy to control a train that goes in a strait line with a few curves but I guess not. I blame lazy crops cutting corners and rolling the dice on the fact that its to easy to cut corners with these types of operations. Its just when something does go wrong its always 100% of the time a major fuck up with many casualties.
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#9

At Least 77 Dead in Spain Train Accident

I'm too tired to try and explain how railroad shit works tonight.

I'll try tomorrow.

But no, a guy in a cubicle can't run the trains out in the countryside.
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#10

At Least 77 Dead in Spain Train Accident

Apparently the conductor likes to run the train at top speeds, just below the threshold for engaging the limiter that notifies RENFE. Here's a pic of the guy conducting the train, taking a picture, and posting it on Facebook a year ago.

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#11

At Least 77 Dead in Spain Train Accident

Pedo smile spotted: http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/...t_the_pedo

"Imagine" by HCE | Hitler reacts to Battle of Montreal | An alternative use for squid that has never crossed your mind before
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#12

At Least 77 Dead in Spain Train Accident

This story is so sad.

Yet I have some sympathy for the driver. People do stupid things all the time - and it is only the unlucky ones like this guy who get caught out and thrown to the lions.

There is a whole area of philosophy dealing with this sort of thing:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_luck
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#13

At Least 77 Dead in Spain Train Accident

Quote: (07-26-2013 11:36 AM)cardguy Wrote:  

This story is so sad.

Yet I have some sympathy for the driver. People do stupid things all the time - and it is only the unlucky ones like this guy who get caught out and thrown to the lions.

There is a whole area of philosophy dealing with this sort of thing:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_luck

I have absolutely no sympathy for him. If he had fallen asleep or just overlooked something, fine, but the above facebook post shows a consistent pattern of recklessness. A train is no place for doing stupid shit. If you get caught getting drunk and climbing over the fence into a private property, you can just be arrested. It's stupid but harmless. Driving a train is not. Drive a train recklessly and dozens of people can die.

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#14

At Least 77 Dead in Spain Train Accident

Yeah - I guess you are right.

Issues of 'moral luck' usually apply to one-off moments of recklessness. Not consistent patterns of (mis)behaviour.

I overthink things sometimes!
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#15

At Least 77 Dead in Spain Train Accident

Not in every profession you have the power to kill 80 people by accident.
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#16

At Least 77 Dead in Spain Train Accident

Quote: (07-26-2013 12:02 AM)Cattle Rustler Wrote:  

Apparently the conductor likes to run the train at top speeds, just below the threshold for engaging the limiter that notifies RENFE. Here's a pic of the guy conducting the train, taking a picture, and posting it on Facebook a year ago.

well the top speed is 200 and he is doing 200. What is the problem in this picture?
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#17

At Least 77 Dead in Spain Train Accident

Quote: (07-26-2013 02:07 PM)Wreckingball Wrote:  

well the top speed is 200 and he is doing 200. What is the problem in this picture?

We don't know where exactly he was doing 200, could be another curve, although a less sharper one. Also, there's something wrong if you're conducting the train at 200kph with 200+ people board and using facebook at the same time.

Here's a qoute from an article:

Quote:Quote:

Immediately before the crash, Garzón radioed in to say the train was "doing 190" km/h (120 mph).

Shortly after he was quoted as saying "We're only human! We're only human! "I hope there are no dead, because this will fall on my conscience."

190 on a curve and he radios in? The guy was pushing it and he knew it.

http://gawker.com/driver-of-derailed-tra...-914654856

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"May get ugly at times. But we get by. Real Niggas never die." - cdr

Follow the Rustler on Twitter | Telegram: CattleRustler

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#18

At Least 77 Dead in Spain Train Accident

^ I think he was just having a rational response. You just made a mistake at work... Okay. But in this case you just killed 100 ppl, what would you do? Your not going to cry like a women, your job is toast, and you have no idea what's going to happen to you. You have blessings your alive but guilt god did not take you with them all also, it's a mix of emotions that results in a stotic response.

I'm not sure he was supposed to react in any other way.
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#19

At Least 77 Dead in Spain Train Accident

What kind of sentence do you think he's going to get if deemed guilty?
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