[cardguy]

Just read an interview with Danny Baker (one of my favourite radio presenters here in the UK).

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people...36849.html

And I want to develop a point he made in the interview.

What is depression? People who get sad - for no reason.

What is manic depression? People who go from one extreme to the other. So - at times they can be incredibly sad - for no reason. And then can bounce into a different state of being incredibly happy - for no reason.

Now - what is missing from the list above? Euphoria.

People who get incredibly happy and euphoric - for no good reason. And unlike Manic Depression - never have a 'come down' where they crash and become incredibly sad for no reason.

Yet - from a logical point of view. It seems that Euphoria should be as common as depression. Yet - according to Danny Baker - it is not even recognised by psychiatrists.

This is strange and seems inconsistent. I am interested in this since I enjoy analysing how science categorises different phenomena. And I am interested in this since I 'suffer' from Euphoria.

Not that it is something you can suffer from since it is the best thing in the world. It like being able to get high off drugs without having to take any.

Anyway - would be interested in others views on this. Anyone here 'suffer' from something which could be classed as the exact opposite of depression?

And isn't this just as valid a diagnosis as depression? I can't understand the
epidemiological reasons as to why it wouldn't be.

But then again - I am sceptical about alot of the issues surrounding psychiatry.

[Hades]

I also suffer from strong bouts of "euphoria" that sometimes last a month or more, but I call it mania. It's insane.

[RichieP]

Do you "suffer" from it in the sense that you feel it impacts your life negatively? Do you feel you're in the "wrong state" sometimes, like you're euphoric when you need to be serious, centered or focused, to the point that it interferes with your life? Or do you just notice you have it, and are glad you do?

Manic people generally report some kind of unease or out-of-controllness with the manic stuff. Like they get "taken over" by it, they know it's not "right" for the task or situation at hand, and it's not wholly a pleasant experience, even though it's very energised and engaged.

Most psychologists who know much about depression would say that joy, delight, euphoria are normal states that non-depressed people have access to at appropriate times. Emotionally healthy people tend to spend decent chunks their live in happy states; particularly when it's time to let loose, enjoy life, connect with others, party, play games, etc. And depressed people can't access those states for one reason or another.

The reason why depression is such a clear-cut diagnosis is because it's so debilitating. CLinically depressed people might not be able to get off the sofa for weeks, heads filled with suicidal thoughts, etc. It causes big problems.

So Im not sure that euphoria from time to time really is a disorder; although it might be. If it feels out of control, like you get "taken over" by it, can't put it aside when necessary, or like you aren't being your true self, then it could absolutely be some kind of coping mechanism (like depression) that could benefit from good therapy (like depression).

[cardguy]

No I don't 'suffer' from it. I was trying to use the term in an ironic sense. I am sure I'm no different to alot of people.

Indeed - I am just trying to explore why it is that so many claim to suffer from depression. When the same numbers of people don't report the opposite - which would be euphoria.

I'm just curious.

[clever alias]

depression and mamic episodes are caused by different things in the brain. depression is when neural receptors are blocked, mania is the opposite. the brain only has so many chemicals it can release.
furthermore, be careful not to confuse manic episodes with just being happy. what charlie sheen had was a manic episode, and though is feels good, its amazingly hard to focus on anything

[Caligula]

(06-02-2013 12:30 PM)cardguy Wrote:  

Yet - from a logical point of view. It seems that Euphoria should be as common as depression. Yet - according to Danny Baker - it is not even recognised by psychiatrists.

This doesn't follow logically at all. There's no reason why instances of depression and euphoria should be symmetric. Maybe the human brain is wired to tend more towards depression.

[RichieP]

Well I think because depression is so obviously unpleasant. It's pure suffering, and it feels very much like something is deeply wrong.

People don't go to the doctor to say "hey, both my legs are working"... but they go if they break one.

[Gmac]

Have you ever seen a young puppy going completely nutso? Endless energy, jumping up and down at people, excited by everything... so ridiculously happy to be alive and taking it all in.

[scorpion]

I've always been of the opinion that depression is simply the brain's way of telling you that you're not living up to your potential. It intentionally makes you feel like shit in the hopes that you'll realize you need to make changes in your life, and to signal those around you to help you do so. If you're living a busy, meaningful life surrounded by friends and family, eating healthy and exercising regularly, it's very unlikely you'll suffer from depression.

The reason depression rates have exploded over the past few decades in the modern world is that people are living utterly unfulfilling and meaningless lives, have become socially disconnected from friends, family and community, eat like shit and don't exercise. They SHOULD be depressed, because their lives are shit. The only way to live in a situation like that and NOT be overcome with depression is to be a complete imbecile or to numb the pain every night with drugs, alcohol and mindless entertainment with television and video games (sound familiar?).

Depression is largely a disease of modernity; it is symptomatic of the deep rot underlying Western culture. If you're depressed, it doesn't mean you have a disease you need to treat with a pill manufactured by Big Pharma, it simply means that you need to make major changes in your life that will allow you to find more meaning and fulfillment.

[Kingsley Davis]

Depression- First World problem.

[Hades]

(06-02-2013 12:37 PM)RichieP Wrote:  

Do you "suffer" from it in the sense that you feel it impacts your life negatively? Do you feel you're in the "wrong state" sometimes, like you're euphoric when you need to be serious, centered or focused, to the point that it interferes with your life?

Absolutely. I have made some bizarre decisions when in a manic state, it can be an awful two weeks to two months.

RichieP Wrote:

Or do you just notice you have it, and are glad you do?

I would be better off without it. It has negatively impacted some relationships in my life.

RichieP Wrote:

Manic people generally report some kind of unease or out-of-controllness with the manic stuff. Like they get "taken over" by it, they know it's not "right" for the task or situation at hand, and it's not wholly a pleasant experience, even though it's very energised and engaged.

This is consistent with what I've had. Hyperawareness, shitloads of energy (uncomfortably energetic), inability to sleep more than an hour or two at a time, diarrhea of the mouth, seemingly otherworldly alcohol, pain, and nicotine tolerance, lots of socialization troubles, always being 'on'. It's dynamite for game at times but I make life difficult for everyone around me. My entire personality shifts incredibly, it's almost Jekyll/Hyde type shit going on.
On average I get one serious two-month long manic episode per year since about 16-17 and one minor manic episode that lasts about two to four weeks. Usually the worst one happens in the summer so I'm getting a little apprehensive.

[iknowexactly]

(06-02-2013 12:42 PM)cardguy Wrote:  

No I don't 'suffer' from it. I was trying to use the term in an ironic sense. I am sure I'm no different to alot of people.

Indeed - I am just trying to explore why it is that so many claim to suffer from depression. When the same numbers of people don't report the opposite - which would be euphoria.

I'm just curious.

I think it's for the simple reason that depression makes people uncomfortable and more or less by definition they can't "shake it" easily (although most depression remits on its own eventually, but you waste time and get more relapses if you wait and don't get treatment)
so they sometimes go ask for help with it.

Feeling absolutely fucking great is its own reward, and it's more fun to stay in that state than to go explain how great you feel, which would usually just dampen it.

One of the problems in mental health practice is that bipolars ( manic-depressive people) usually present only when they're depressed. You don't know if they have the manic periods unless you carefully ask.

When you're in "flow" as it's often called, you are more motivated to just keep doing what you're doing and prefer to stay there, rather than go tell someone about it.

Do you complain when your 200K Ferrari is running great and you're zooming through the California desert in the brilliant amber sunlight on your way to a threesome with bikini models in LV? No, only if it breaks down in Barstow.

Now if you STOLE the Ferrari from a Mafia guy, and the chicks you're going to meet are his girlfriends-- THAT'S Mania, and is destructive as poster above mentioned.

Euphoria can be a result of something healthy and positive-- you invented a new heart transplant technique, are now rich and bought the Ferrari fair and square and the chicks are nurse groupies who think you're a genius.

OR it could be part of an unhealthy state.

[iknowexactly]

(06-02-2013 01:26 PM)scorpion Wrote:  

Depression is largely a disease of modernity; it is symptomatic of the deep rot underlying Western culture. If you're depressed, it doesn't mean you have a disease you need to treat with a pill manufactured by Big Pharma, it simply means that you need to make major changes in your life that will allow you to find more meaning and fulfillment.

I agree depression is related to alienation and other life situations. However, alienation affects brain chemicals and physiology and the resultant behavioral-biology feedback loops are anything but simple.

Depression is both a mental, physical, and (as you say) societal illness, the aspects of which all interact with each other.

I am talking about clinical depression, not normal sadness, so we may not be on the same page.

Here are some brain scans. This stuff is real, not speculation.

http://www.google.com/images?q=pet+dscan...d=0CBoQsAQ

Not to be rude but to people who spend their lives researching this with PET scans, elaborate scientific analyses of brain chemicals, to say "depression simply means _______" is really a gross oversimplification.

Purely mentalistic models are not seen as credible by modern researchers: Changing a mental component--"Mind over matter"; "You just have to change your thinking" if done well, (cognitive therapy) can work however.

Polio vaccines are made by Big Pharma, I don't think we'd care to do without them. Just because something is done by Big Pharma is not automatic evidence for or against it.

The MMR vaccine which is credited with saving more lives than anything else in the 20th century was developed by someone working for Big Pharma. (Hillman at Merck)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maurice_Hilleman

[scorpion]

(06-02-2013 01:51 PM)iknowexactly Wrote:  

(06-02-2013 01:26 PM)scorpion Wrote:  

Depression is largely a disease of modernity; it is symptomatic of the deep rot underlying Western culture. If you're depressed, it doesn't mean you have a disease you need to treat with a pill manufactured by Big Pharma, it simply means that you need to make major changes in your life that will allow you to find more meaning and fulfillment.

I agree depression is related to alienation and other life situations. However, alienation affects brain chemicals and physiology and the resultant behavioral-biology feedback loops are anything but simple.

Depression is both a mental, physical, and (as you say) societal illness, the aspects of which all interact with each other.

I am talking about clinical depression, not normal sadness, so we may not be on the same page.

Here are some brain scans. This stuff is real, not speculation.

http://www.google.com/images?q=pet+dscan...d=0CBoQsAQ

Not to be rude but to people who spend their lives researching this with PET scans, elaborate scientific analyses of brain chemicals, to say "depression simply means _______" is really a gross oversimplification.

Purely mentalistic models are not seen as credible by modern researchers: Changing a mental component--"Mind over matter"; "You just have to change your thinking" if done well, (cognitive therapy) can work however.

Polio vaccines are made by Big Pharma, I don't think we'd care to do without them. Just because something is done by Big Pharma is not automatic evidence for or against it.

The MMR vaccine which is credited with saving more lives than anything else in the 20th century was developed by someone working for Big Pharma. (Hillman at Merck)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maurice_Hilleman

You are right that depression is a physical phenomenon in the brain. I never said otherwise. The brain responds to a shitty situation in your life with a physical reaction designed to impel you to remove yourself from that situation.

Taking anti-depressants simply masks the symptoms at best (and there is plenty of research to suggest these drugs don't work at all) and does nothing to address the root problems that are actually causing the chemical misfiring in the brain the results in depression, which are mostly environmental factors that can be controlled or modified in most cases.

[TheBlackNarwhal]

The opposite of depression is expression. You are literally being compressed by your brain with thoughts of negativity. One of the most under appreciated treatments of depression is physical exercise. Exercise naturally creates endorphins which make you feel 'good'. Other endeavors include going out with friends. artistic expression, reading, picking up a hobby like playing an instrument, or sex. Really, anything positive that usually makes you feel accomplished and satisfied will help sooth out a depression.

Social interaction is also important is climbing out of a depression. Loneliness is a common symptom of it and if your friends can pick up that you're in a slump it will make all the difference.

[Vakarian]

(06-02-2013 12:30 PM)cardguy Wrote:  

I am interested in this since I 'suffer' from Euphoria.

I'd consider yourself lucky. I have weeks like that once or twice a year where I feel completely invincible, and like I can do no wrong. Does wonders for my game in those weeks.

I think the closest the average person would come to something like that would be an obsession. When I become really interested in something, whether it be game or just a skill I want to learn, a switch goes off in my head that drives me to complete it or always to be better no matter what. No necessarily euphoria, but sweet sweet purpose: a feeling that can make you really happy.