[chamele0n]

It's a weird situation I find myself in at this point in my life. Up until about age 20 I was a Russian kid with an American dream. I went to study in the US and got a Finance bachelor and also a JD law degree, spending almost 10 years to do that. But by the time I got to the end of my law degree I realized what a sex prison country I got myself into and now I just wish I had stayed and studied for a career in Russia instead.

So now I am at a crossroads: the Finance degree would probably be useful anywhere in the world, but it seems to me that my expensive US law degree that also cost me about 4 years of my life and opportunity cost of having been able to work in the meantime would not be of much use in Russia.

The PROS of starting a career in Russia at this time are:

free housing
Russian citizenship
Russian fluency
being in a culture I enjoy living in

The PROS of starting a career in the US to make money to move back to Russia or at least to make up the money spent on law school would be:

wasted 4 years of my life and almost $100K in law school tuition
could relatively quickly become an attorney in the US (higher status than the jobs I could get in Russia with just my Finance bachelor degree)
however, it would be like being in a sex prison for the entire time

What would you guys do in my shoes? Would you go tough it out working in the US if you had a US law degree or would you just say "f** the law degree" and start a finance career in Russia?

[Divorco]

I doubt you could repay $100K in student loans on a Russian salary unless you live free with relatives and scrimp. That won't help your sex life. We have already posted about the law school trap.

They have plenty of gold-digging Russian immigrants around Washington, D.C., along with Embassies from Eastern Europe. I see average Russian guys here with hot Russian girlfriends. Obviously there are many in Brighton Beach (New York City). In my experience, Russian women are cliquish. If you speak Russian then you can easily infiltrate their social networks. Go to RussianFriendFinder.com. Use Couch Surfing and Meet-Up groups. Of course develop your regular U.S. game.

Everybody has a niche. Some guys dance, others work with women (hairdressers, healthcare), etc. Since you haven't even mentioned exploiting your Russian, you are probably overlooking other stuff too. You need to work on yourself, on day game, night game, online game, and social circle game. There was one old thread here about a member who successfully went back to Ukraine for an extended period to find a wife. But first you need to try options in the U.S. If everything fails in two carefully chosen U.S. cities then you can look at Russian options.

Let's put this in harsh perspective. In the past year, how many approaches and dates have you had? How many U.S. cities have you seriously tried? It sounds like you did law school without thorough research. You need to do at least two years of research on U.S. living/careers/cities/game. You can take a couple vacations to Russia during this time.

[j r]

Why not look at US firms or multinationals that do business in Russia? I would think that Russia on an expat salary would be pretty dope

[Menace]

(04-16-2013 07:47 AM)chamele0n Wrote:  

What would you guys do in my shoes? Would you go tough it out working in the US if you had a US law degree or would you just say "f** the law degree" and start a finance career in Russia?

I'm talking with a guy in Novosibirsk who wants to GTFO and move to Canada, and more than that to Toronto! Don't be so quick to run away from your perceived problems. The US is a huge country...why not move to NYC. Don't tell me there are no girls there. Move to a "slower" legal market in the south...how about Charleston? There was a thread about it indicating that there is great talent and friendly girls. The foreign travel aspect of this forum can sometimes make it seem that there are just no "good" women in America. This is a country with 300 M people and lots of cultures, you can surely find a pocket where you will enjoy the women. Living in Russia will not be a picnic. You will make shit wages, put up with shit government and shit conditions, and shitty attitudes too.

JD is a highly un-portable degree. Hell, you couldn't even take a US JD to Canada and be able to practice without doing more tests and exams.

BTW how do you know you can "relatively quickly" become an attorney? Do you have standing offers from firms, or is this something you think? Because the legal market is shit, and will continue to be shit. The good old days are dead and over. Unless you have specialized skills (science degree), you will have trouble. Finance may be a bonus, I'm not sure.

[chamele0n]

(04-16-2013 10:05 AM)Menace Wrote:  

(04-16-2013 07:47 AM)chamele0n Wrote:  

What would you guys do in my shoes? Would you go tough it out working in the US if you had a US law degree or would you just say "f** the law degree" and start a finance career in Russia?

I'm talking with a guy in Novosibirsk who wants to GTFO and move to Canada, and more than that to Toronto! Don't be so quick to run away from your perceived problems. The US is a huge country...why not move to NYC. Don't tell me there are no girls there. Move to a "slower" legal market in the south...how about Charleston? There was a thread about it indicating that there is great talent and friendly girls. The foreign travel aspect of this forum can sometimes make it seem that there are just no "good" women in America. This is a country with 300 M people and lots of cultures, you can surely find a pocket where you will enjoy the women. Living in Russia will not be a picnic. You will make shit wages, put up with shit government and shit conditions, and shitty attitudes too.

JD is a highly un-portable degree. Hell, you couldn't even take a US JD to Canada and be able to practice without doing more tests and exams.

BTW how do you know you can "relatively quickly" become an attorney? Do you have standing offers from firms, or is this something you think? Because the legal market is shit, and will continue to be shit. The good old days are dead and over. Unless you have specialized skills (science degree), you will have trouble. Finance may be a bonus, I'm not sure.

Yeah, you're right about the unportability of the JD degree. But at the start of the career ladder would it really matter if I started out in the US or in Russia? Besides, as you yourself said and it's a strong argument, the legal market is shit, and will continue to be shit. This is one of the main reasons I am not so inclined to rush to the US.

Canada of course would in no way be better than Russia for me: the US JD degree is still worthless there.

As about the women: I understand that the US has 300M people. I have lived in a good few cities, big and small, in the US and kept statistics on the number of mostly humiliating approaches I needed to do to get laid. It doesn't change much throughout the country. I don't know if it's the brainwashing from the TV that tells women every guy is a potential rapist and pervert or what, but that country is just hopeless. I feel I would be disrespecting myself by spending another minute gaming American women. I can't say my experience was much different with Canadian women.

The stats were drastically different with women from anywhere but North America, I mean holy **** were they different. The first two German girls I met in my life - one I made out with, another I had sex with. The first Colombian girl I met - a solid 9, I dated for something like a month, and had to leave for a month, although I knew I was close to a lay with her. Most Russians chick I met dug me too. I thought it was just a return from the massive numbers game that I ran from blue balls, but later, having analyzed the data I collected from the hundreds (maybe thousands) of approaches I discovered 95% of my lays came from foreign (non-North American) chicks.

[Dulceácido]

Where is this "sex prison" of which you speak and what charges were levied against you resulting your incarceration that you cannot properly defend against having graduated from law school?

[durangotang]

Get in with a US firm doing business in Moscow. Make an American salary in Russia. Can't get better than that

[jimukr104]

(04-16-2013 09:50 AM)Divorco Wrote:  

I doubt you could repay $100K in student loans on a Russian salary unless you live free with relatives and scrimp. That won't help your sex life. We have already posted about the law school trap.

They have plenty of gold-digging Russian immigrants around Washington, D.C., along with Embassies from Eastern Europe. I see average Russian guys here with hot Russian girlfriends. Obviously there are many in Brighton Beach (New York City). In my experience, Russian women are cliquish. If you speak Russian then you can easily infiltrate their social networks. Go to RussianFriendFinder.com. Use Couch Surfing and Meet-Up groups. Of course develop your regular U.S. game.

Everybody has a niche. Some guys dance, others work with women (hairdressers, healthcare), etc. Since you haven't even mentioned exploiting your Russian, you are probably overlooking other stuff too. You need to work on yourself, on day game, night game, online game, and social circle game. There was one old thread here about a member who successfully went back to Ukraine for an extended period to find a wife. But first you need to try options in the U.S. If everything fails in two carefully chosen U.S. cities then you can look at Russian options.

Let's put this in harsh perspective. In the past year, how many approaches and dates have you had? How many U.S. cities have you seriously tried? It sounds like you did law school without thorough research. You need to do at least two years of research on U.S. living/careers/cities/game. You can take a couple vacations to Russia during this time.

wasn't me? i been married to a Ukrainian 11 years NOW that I met in Ukraine when I was an expat. That being said I grew up and live in sheepshead bay Brooklyn and have dated FSU girls my whole life here BUT I a m of their blood!Blood, soul, is important to most of them. If not then they basically have Americanized into those liberal NYU type chicks you don't want to date anyway.
There is a dating/relationship structure as to who they mate with here.
1 first is other Russians who immigrated.
2. second is natives who have FSU ancestry(blood) and Jewish.
3. other white jews.
Its ironic because a large % are Christians but because of them trying to fit into the local population they socially conform with the Jewish population of immigrants. This seems to be the case in NYC, NJ, Philly, and CT communities. But from what I have heard it might be different in other states outside the 4 state area. This is probably due to not being around their family members. Its easier to pull a Russian in lets say Florida or texas who isn't influenced by peer pressure and the community.Although the Russian community in Texas and other states actively promote using Americans for green cards etc. LOL. Thats because they are without their families and will behave badly.

[Arado]

Living in Moscow, I've seen a big trend is American educated and experienced Russians coming back to Moscow to make bank. With your foot in both cultures, you can definitely be marketable. Unemployment in Russia is low, companies are desperate for skilled, English fluent Russians with their shit together.

If you are inheriting an apartment, then a huge chunk of your living costs go away, so you may not even have that much less disposable income then if you were making a US salary.

[Menace]

(04-16-2013 01:34 PM)ao85 Wrote:  

Living in Moscow, I've seen a big trend is American educated and experienced Russians coming back to Moscow to make bank. With your foot in both cultures, you can definitely be marketable. Unemployment in Russia is low, companies are desperate for skilled, English fluent Russians with their shit together.

If you are inheriting an apartment, then a huge chunk of your living costs go away, so you may not even have that much less disposable income then if you were making a US salary.

Can you be more specific about the making bank? What industry, with what experience, and at what salary?

[K-man]

I have to ask - did you already pay for law school, or do you have a $100k loan? If the latter, just skip the country and move back to Russia. They will not be able to come after you.

(04-16-2013 12:01 PM)durangotang Wrote:  

Get in with a US firm doing business in Moscow. Make an American salary in Russia. Can't get better than that

An average american salary is not enough to have a great lifestyle in Moscow.

[chamele0n]

(04-16-2013 09:50 AM)Divorco Wrote:  

I doubt you could repay $100K in student loans on a Russian salary unless you live free with relatives and scrimp. That won't help your sex life. We have already posted about the law school trap.

They have plenty of gold-digging Russian immigrants around Washington, D.C., along with Embassies from Eastern Europe. I see average Russian guys here with hot Russian girlfriends. Obviously there are many in Brighton Beach (New York City). In my experience, Russian women are cliquish. If you speak Russian then you can easily infiltrate their social networks. Go to RussianFriendFinder.com. Use Couch Surfing and Meet-Up groups. Of course develop your regular U.S. game.

Everybody has a niche. Some guys dance, others work with women (hairdressers, healthcare), etc. Since you haven't even mentioned exploiting your Russian, you are probably overlooking other stuff too. You need to work on yourself, on day game, night game, online game, and social circle game. There was one old thread here about a member who successfully went back to Ukraine for an extended period to find a wife. But first you need to try options in the U.S. If everything fails in two carefully chosen U.S. cities then you can look at Russian options.

Let's put this in harsh perspective. In the past year, how many approaches and dates have you had? How many U.S. cities have you seriously tried? It sounds like you did law school without thorough research. You need to do at least two years of research on U.S. living/careers/cities/game. You can take a couple vacations to Russia during this time.

What does my number of approaches have to do with anything? I don't see the connection you draw between my choice of law school and my game. I chose law school at the time because I was planning to work in the US if need arose. If I had not become wiser as I was IN law school I would have made it work, no matter if the legal market was - good or bad.

About two years of research you are talking about: I have lived in the US for a decade by now. Why would I need another two years? I know it all about US living/careers/cities/game. I've been all over the place.

[chamele0n]

(04-17-2013 06:52 AM)K-man Wrote:  

I have to ask - did you already pay for law school, or do you have a $100k loan? If the latter, just skip the country and move back to Russia. They will not be able to come after you.

(04-16-2013 12:01 PM)durangotang Wrote:  

Get in with a US firm doing business in Moscow. Make an American salary in Russia. Can't get better than that

An average american salary is not enough to have a great lifestyle in Moscow.

I'm still paying off loans that were taken out in Russia for law school in the US. The university has already been paid.

[Menace]

What about hybrid option? Big law job for years @ 160K, save at least 50% of income then move to Russia and live there. If you can't find a big law job, I actually think based on what you've written that Russia may be the better option.

[NikNik]

I'm not familiar with legal market and that stuff,but as a guy from Eastern Europe i suggest you think about the money first.All these American guys saying how great Eastern Europe is would quickly change their minds if they actually lived and worked here and not just going on vacations.If the difference in money is not that large than go where your heart takes you.Ideally you would get big bank and move to Russia while still young.

And he didn't say he would live in Moscow,other Russian cities are probably much cheaper.

[Divorco]

(04-18-2013 07:51 AM)chamele0n Wrote:  

What does my number of approaches have to do with anything? I don't see the connection you draw between my choice of law school and my game. I chose law school at the time because I was planning to work in the US if need arose. If I had not become wiser as I was IN law school I would have made it work, no matter if the legal market was - good or bad.

About two years of research you are talking about: I have lived in the US for a decade by now. Why would I need another two years? I know it all about US living/careers/cities/game. I've been all over the place.

Research shows the law market really sucks. Since you didn't mention going to a top school with a legitimate shot at big law, it was not worth $100K of student debt. Law degrees won't work in other countries, so you made a large inflexible investment.

The connection to game is that you are embarking on another long and costly lifestyle commitment. You may have lived in the U.S. But I don't know whether you have experimented with game and done enough approaches (especially daygame, online, and Russian social circle) as an adult to rule out North America. But if you are certain you can't find social happiness here, then consider a transition.

http://www.rooshvforum.network/thread-9930.html
How Long to Find a (Ukrainian) Wife Thread

Edit: There was an old thread of a member who went back to Eastern Europe. Other members advised him to learn game here first. But he persevered and did surprisingly well. Maybe someone else can find it.

[POHammer]

(04-18-2013 08:39 AM)NikNik Wrote:  

I'm not familiar with legal market and that stuff,but as a guy from Eastern Europe i suggest you think about the money first.All these American guys saying how great Eastern Europe is would quickly change their minds if they actually lived and worked here and not just going on vacations.If the difference in money is not that large than go where your heart takes you.Ideally you would get big bank and move to Russia while still young.

And he didn't say he would live in Moscow,other Russian cities are probably much cheaper.

I've lived in provincial Eastern Europe for several months, and in the cities for nearly 2 years now. I like it.

Then again, I have different preferences than some people.

For example, you have people who live in small towns in the USA or even on farms. They like that life and would not want to move to a city. Its their preference

It really comes down to what you prefer.

If you want to make lots of cash, go live in New York or London. If you like fast paced life, go live in a big city. If you prefer smaller towns, go to a place like Lublin, Poland or Lutsk, Ukraine etc. I like walking to the rynok and buying a kilo of apples, some farm fresh eggs, and homemade sauerkraut. Then I meet up with a girl for a walk in the park and a cup of coffee in the cafe. She's a sweet and feminine girl who grew up in a village of a few hundred people. She likes reading books, watching movies, riding horses, petting cats, and making love. Studying languages, she'll probably work as a schoolteacher.

I bet many people would find my lifestyle boring, but I prefer it to the stress and hustle of big cities and western countries. It all depends on what you prefer.

If you like, a middle path is living in the 1st tier of an EE country: Warsaw/Krakow, Kiev/Odessa, Moscow/St.Petersburg

Those places will offer big city life and fast pace, a middle level of earning potential, and a middle level of girls-not quite as sweet as th provincial girl, but better than American girls.
This would be a good compromise for an ambitious guy such as a lawyer.

[Atilla]

I say look into your exit strategy. If you have trouble deciding, take a 2 month vacation where you will chase women and network with people for career opportunities.

What doesn't get discussed much is how a large number of lawyers nowadays are only making $40k-$50k incomes, especially starting out. Don't take a lawyer profession just because you want to feel "higher status." Do you get higher quality girls in the US than you do in Russia after telling American girls you're a lawyer? Most lawyers here have ugly, repulsive, trashy American girlfriends/wives. The amount of work and stress necessary to make a high income as an attorney in the US are often too much for many people and they just seek out other professions anyway.

You’re probably not going to be happier as a lawyer in the US, and you definitely should not be living here just because you spent some time and money on getting a law degree. People change their majors and professions all the time, especially lawyers.

[Atilla]

(04-16-2013 07:47 AM)chamele0n Wrote:  

wasted 4 years of my life and almost $100K in law school tuition

Let me say this before I go to work.

Think a bit longer about what you’ve gained from law school besides that sheet of paper.

See if your local library carries the movie “Paper Chase” and at least watch the scenes where the main character is in class or studying. The guy gained the most from his law class at Harvard when he focused on appreciating his education and stopped caring about his grades and degree.

I know we get a lot of uber-beta professors nowadays who treat their students in a motherly way, constantly nurturing them and being gentle and kind, but an alpha male professor like Kingsfield who will kick your ass is priceless.

I’ve taken GE and liberal arts classes that really improved my skills in studying, time management, critical thinking, reading analysis, and writing. This was usually when the professor intimidated the life out of me, making me think I'd fail his/her class when I was getting an A all along. Some of the highly intelligent and hard-working students and professors I’ve met in those classes inspire me to this day and probably will for the rest of my life.

If all you feel you got out of law school was a sheet of paper that entitles you to become a successful lawyer, you have wasted four years of your life and $100k.

[POHammer]

I met a dude who had a high school education...fuckin high school man!.....and he had what I consider a 10 for a girlfriend. Dude worked as a personal trainer. All he did all day was smoke pot, take roids, and coach a few clients.

Thats when I realized it was all a sick joke. I know brilliant dudes who design nuclear subs and but fuck their hands b/c most girls don't gives a damn if you're educated or make good money.

Best thing I ever did was free myself from conventional thinking. Don't do shit just because its what everyone says you should do.

[POHammer]

Let me add to that last post to clarify.

Education and money are good, but being a well rounded person is the most important thing.

Its good if you are athletic, sociable, and have fun hobbies. As long as you have a profession that you enjoy and make enough money to live on, you're ok.

For example, a high school Math teacher making 40,000 a year, driving a slightly used Honda, but in shape who likes to go mountain climbing and dance salsa is in a good position.

The dude with a stellar career but chubby and boring is missing out on life.

Some people say "Education is to key to success"... well, its the key to a career. Well balanced life is the key the success.

[chamele0n]

(04-18-2013 06:14 PM)Atilla Wrote:  

(04-16-2013 07:47 AM)chamele0n Wrote:  

wasted 4 years of my life and almost $100K in law school tuition

Let me say this before I go to work.

Think a bit longer about what you’ve gained from law school besides that sheet of paper.

See if your local library carries the movie “Paper Chase” and at least watch the scenes where the main character is in class or studying. The guy gained the most from his law class at Harvard when he focused on appreciating his education and stopped caring about his grades and degree.

I know we get a lot of uber-beta professors nowadays who treat their students in a motherly way, constantly nurturing them and being gentle and kind, but an alpha male professor like Kingsfield who will kick your ass is priceless.

I’ve taken GE and liberal arts classes that really improved my skills in studying, time management, critical thinking, reading analysis, and writing. This was usually when the professor intimidated the life out of me, making me think I'd fail his/her class when I was getting an A all along. Some of the highly intelligent and hard-working students and professors I’ve met in those classes inspire me to this day and probably will for the rest of my life.

If all you feel you got out of law school was a sheet of paper that entitles you to become a successful lawyer, you have wasted four years of your life and $100k.

Learning how to be patient and careful reading literature has so far only helped me fill out a few forms more carefully than I would have otherwise. Hardly worth $100K, more like $200 to be generous.

This sounds like a common regurgitation of the silly reasons for law school they feed you in law school to not look like they scammed you of your money.

[Akula]

"But by the time I got to the end of my law degree I realized what a sex prison country I got myself into and now I just wish I had stayed and studied for a career in Russia instead."

Ha ha...I guess the American Dream is dead? As guy who grew up in the US I think in many ways it is, and it's only getting worse - that's part of the reason why I moved to Russia.

That said, Russia has plenty of problems and you give up many things to come and work/live here. But for me as a single man the upside with women, lower taxes, higher growth etc. were too good to pass up. I'm sure you could levearge your degrees in NYC or Chicago/Boston, but a move to Russia would be quite attractive to me, but it all depends on what sort of job/salary you can get. Finance is pretty much all in Moscow, and it's really expensive to live well here. Then again, so is NYC - take it from me I lived there 12 years.

RE your "Pros" you forgot two big ones. First, if you aren't a US Citizen or resident you don't have to pay US taxes globally. This is a big deal, as the US is one of the only major countries to tax its citizens globally. So if you come here you as a Russian citizen would only pay 13%. If you are making a lot of money that's huge. It SUCKS that I have to pay any US taxes - nobody from Europe, Canada or Australia has to pay anything for income earned abroad (and why should they, frankly?).

Second, you forgot to mention the ladies! Big reason, the US can't compare, even NYC or other places with Russian immigrants - just not the same thing, there are many posts about how they get corrupted fast, feminist influences, etc.

RE 'starting a finance career in Russia' well it's not the greatest time to search, but there are still many opportunities. I say just do it. When I came I did it and didn't speak any Russian, didin't have a job, and only a couple friends and it's the greatest thing I've ever done. Not everyone can do that, but you seem to have a built-in support system so I would seriously consider coming here and my vote is do it.

Edit: re-read your post. You said you are 30 and have lived in the US for 10 years...then I'd say get out now!!!! Also I know a lot of lawyers here who have English Law experience and that's in high demand here for sure. English Law is typically used by international firms here nobody uses US law really.

[POHammer]

(04-19-2013 05:32 AM)chamele0n Wrote:  

(04-18-2013 06:14 PM)Atilla Wrote:  

(04-16-2013 07:47 AM)chamele0n Wrote:  

wasted 4 years of my life and almost $100K in law school tuition

Let me say this before I go to work.

Think a bit longer about what you’ve gained from law school besides that sheet of paper.

See if your local library carries the movie “Paper Chase” and at least watch the scenes where the main character is in class or studying. The guy gained the most from his law class at Harvard when he focused on appreciating his education and stopped caring about his grades and degree.

I know we get a lot of uber-beta professors nowadays who treat their students in a motherly way, constantly nurturing them and being gentle and kind, but an alpha male professor like Kingsfield who will kick your ass is priceless.

I’ve taken GE and liberal arts classes that really improved my skills in studying, time management, critical thinking, reading analysis, and writing. This was usually when the professor intimidated the life out of me, making me think I'd fail his/her class when I was getting an A all along. Some of the highly intelligent and hard-working students and professors I’ve met in those classes inspire me to this day and probably will for the rest of my life.

If all you feel you got out of law school was a sheet of paper that entitles you to become a successful lawyer, you have wasted four years of your life and $100k.

Learning how to be patient and careful reading literature has so far only helped me fill out a few forms more carefully than I would have otherwise. Hardly worth $100K, more like $200 to be generous.

This sounds like a common regurgitation of the silly reasons for law school they feed you in law school to not look like they scammed you of your money.

I have a STEM background so I don't know about law, but can't you specialize in something like international law or trade law which would allow you to work abroad?

[Vitriol]

Check out this article: http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/0...wyer-jobs/

You're probably better off just writing that career option off as a loss if you stay in the U.S.. Try to use your skills to do something else.

(04-19-2013 07:36 AM)Akula Wrote:  

Ha ha...I guess the American Dream is dead? As guy who grew up in the US I think in many ways it is, and it's only getting worse - that's part of the reason why I moved to Russia.

I think it is too. No one really does anything here anymore outside of their responsibilities aside from rotting away in front of a TV or computer. Even when people go out they just sit around pounding away on their phones.

(04-16-2013 10:55 AM)chamele0n Wrote:  

As about the women: I understand that the US has 300M people. I have lived in a good few cities, big and small, in the US and kept statistics on the number of mostly humiliating approaches I needed to do to get laid. It doesn't change much throughout the country. I don't know if it's the brainwashing from the TV that tells women every guy is a potential rapist and pervert or what, but that country is just hopeless. I feel I would be disrespecting myself by spending another minute gaming American women. I can't say my experience was much different with Canadian women.

Why do you think video games and pornography are so popular among American men? Putting up with bullshit from American females isn't enjoyable. It's merely something American men tolerate if they want to get laid occasionally... which kind of takes the fun out of the whole process.