[Ziltoid]

Something I've been mulling over for a while...
These two sentiments are causing me quite a bit of cognitive dissonance:

#1: You should be "persistent" in getting laid and not give up easily, both in general, as well as with specific women case-by-case.
http://www.rooshv.com/your-friend-is-creepy
http://www.rooshv.com/just-keep-going

#2: Don't stoop to metaphorically begging women to fuck you.
http://www.rooshv.com/dont-be-a-pussy-beggar
http://www.rooshv.com/never-let-a-girl-reject-you-twice

So, as hinted in the title of this thread, my question is when exactly does the former become the latter? How many hoops are too many, and when does "persistence" become "pussy begging"?
I guess the crux of this, for me, might lie in defining what constitutes "rejection"... Her not letting me sleep with her on the first night/date, her negging me in an annoying way, her obviously ignoring or delaying her responses to my texts? Is something like this way too contextual to even generalize?
Is this just a simple cost-benefit analysis of how much you want to bang a girl compared to how much you feel like dealing with stupid nonsense from her?

Your input appreciated.

[scorpion]

Persistence is something you apply to the game itself, not individual girls. You are supposed to be persistent in pursuit of getting pussy, not getting the pussy of any one particular girl.

If a girl rejects you, disrespects you or otherwise makes it clear she's not interested, then don't waste your time and demean yourself by trying to desperately gain her approval.

Move on. Next.

Be persistent in your quest for pussy, but don't be a pussy beggar for any one girl.

[HotLava]

Scorpion's answer above is correct. In terms of targeting a particular girl, it would mean persistent while maintaining your dignity and not being desperate. For instance, a girl didn't return my text a few days ago. I know she's into me, so I'm going to text her in a week or two (aloof but persistent). I could have gotten upset about the lack of a return text, and sent her a buch of nasty texts. I can afford to lose her anyway, so who cares.

[Ziltoid]

(01-17-2013 12:05 AM)scorpion Wrote:  

Persistence is something you apply to the game itself, not individual girls. You are supposed to be persistent in pursuit of getting pussy, not getting the pussy of any one particular girl.

If a girl rejects you, disrespects you or otherwise makes it clear she's not interested, then don't waste your time and demean yourself by trying to desperately gain her approval.

Move on. Next.

Be persistent in your quest for pussy, but don't be a pussy beggar for any one girl.

So would you say you disagree with the first article, then?
Because I interpreted it to say that you should invest time/effort and be persistent with specific women.

Roosh Wrote:

...
“But you resisted coming to my apartment, and then to kiss.”

“I know.”

“Even then you knew were going to have sex?”

“Yes, I had already decided.”

What a mind fuck! What she was saying was that the only game I needed the entire night was to not give up. As long as I hung in there, I would have been rewarded.
...
Maggie reminded me not to bother figuring out women, but just to do the things they reward. They reward guys who approach, make conversation, and persist. I can happily do all three.

[Ensam]

It's the difference between wanting something to happen and needing something to happen. Wanting is persistance. Needing is begging. I want an Aston Marton. I might work my butt off in order to be able to afford an Aston Marton someday. That's persistance. I need food though, if for some reason I become an invalid and can't make enough money to afford food I'll be out on the street begging with no dignity.

That's the difference.

[EisenBarde]

Are you gonna run the ball through the goal line or just play mother may I with it?

[scorpion]

Was this unclear?

If a girl rejects you, disrespects you or otherwise makes it clear she's not interested, then don't waste your time and demean yourself by trying to desperately gain her approval.

Until the girl crosses the line, game on. Be persistent. But don't demean yourself to win her approval and become a pussy beggar.

In that post, Roosh tells the girl in the street to fuck off after she calls his friend creepy. That was the right move because that was disrespectful on her part. He moves on to the other girl, Maggie, who seems cool toward his advances, but never disrespects him or shuts him down, so he just keeps plowing forward and ultimately his persistence is rewarded.

Basically, you should never lower yourself or assume an approval-seeking position in order to get laid. That is pussy begging. You should, however, continually escalate until the girl either fucks you or makes it very clear that she is not going to fuck you. Then you move on. That is persistence.

[Ziltoid]

(01-17-2013 12:39 AM)scorpion Wrote:  

Was this unclear?

If a girl rejects you, disrespects you or otherwise makes it clear she's not interested, then don't waste your time and demean yourself by trying to desperately gain her approval.

What is unclear to me is not that being disrespected in unacceptable, but what exactly can reasonably be construed as disrespect... I'm hardly interested in gaining the approval of any of these chicks, but if I immediately adopt a "fuck you" stance to any woman who ever flaked on me in the slightest sense, I'd get laid pretty goddamn sparsely.
And, actually, that's kind of been the problem I'm dealing with.
One unreplied text, failed hookup, or vaguely snarky comment and I'm left with smouldering pride and a bitter taste in my mouth that gives me zero desire to ever speak with said girl again (which I prettymuch always follow through on), when in retrospect I'm left feeling like I may have prematurely tossed aside a decent prospect. And yet, on the other hand, I still feel like anything less would be a compromise of my dignity.

Like I said, kind of trying to figure things out.
Just curious what you guys think.

[wi30]

(01-17-2013 12:26 AM)Ziltoid Wrote:  

(01-17-2013 12:05 AM)scorpion Wrote:  

Persistence is something you apply to the game itself, not individual girls. You are supposed to be persistent in pursuit of getting pussy, not getting the pussy of any one particular girl.

If a girl rejects you, disrespects you or otherwise makes it clear she's not interested, then don't waste your time and demean yourself by trying to desperately gain her approval.

Move on. Next.

Be persistent in your quest for pussy, but don't be a pussy beggar for any one girl.

So would you say you disagree with the first article, then?
Because I interpreted it to say that you should invest time/effort and be persistent with specific women.

Roosh Wrote:

...
“But you resisted coming to my apartment, and then to kiss.”

“I know.”

“Even then you knew were going to have sex?”

“Yes, I had already decided.”

What a mind fuck! What she was saying was that the only game I needed the entire night was to not give up. As long as I hung in there, I would have been rewarded.
...
Maggie reminded me not to bother figuring out women, but just to do the things they reward. They reward guys who approach, make conversation, and persist. I can happily do all three.

"I started walking in the direction of Zavod, now hopeful about a girl I had long since given up on. I convinced myself that I wasn’t acting desperate, that I just wanted to see her reaction when she saw me. If it was positive, I’d pursue it."

"By then it was four a.m. The odds that Maggie would still be at Zavod were almost zero, but by going home I felt that the girl on the street would win. I’d show her—by going to the worst bar in town."

I see where the articles you linked could come across as contradictory, but he was in no way begging in this situation. Going home right after the street girl was rude would have meant she ruined his night. He went back to Zavod to look for new girls, with the slim chance of Maggie still being there (who had not rejected him the week prior, but given him mixed signals to the point where he ejected himself from the interaction).

Definitely never give a specific girl the time of day who has already rejected you or has disrespected you in any way. That is being a pussy beggar.

Pushing through light resistance with a girl who has already shown interest is being persistent. This happens a lot.

[wi30]

(01-17-2013 12:52 AM)Ziltoid Wrote:  

(01-17-2013 12:39 AM)scorpion Wrote:  

Was this unclear?

If a girl rejects you, disrespects you or otherwise makes it clear she's not interested, then don't waste your time and demean yourself by trying to desperately gain her approval.

What is unclear to me is not that being disrespected in unacceptable, but what exactly can reasonably be construed as disrespect... I'm hardly interested in gaining the approval of any of these chicks, but if I immediately adopt a "fuck you" stance to any woman who ever flaked on me in the slightest sense, I'd get laid pretty goddamn sparsely.
And, actually, that's kind of been the problem I'm dealing with.
One unreplied text, failed hookup, or vaguely snarky comment and I'm left with smouldering pride and a bitter taste in my mouth that gives me zero desire to ever speak with said girl again (which I prettymuch always follow through on), when in retrospect I'm left feeling like I may have prematurely tossed aside a decent prospect. And yet, on the other hand, I still feel like anything less would be a compromise of my dignity.

Like I said, kind of trying to figure things out.
Just curious what you guys think.

Every guy has his own tipping point. What one might find disrespectful might not bother another. It's every man's job to find that breaking point and stand his ground on what a girl can do or say to cause him to drop her, regardless of how he feels about her or his chances of banging her.

[scorpion]

(01-17-2013 12:52 AM)Ziltoid Wrote:  

What is unclear to me is not that being disrespected in unacceptable, but what exactly can reasonably be construed as disrespect... I'm hardly interested in gaining the approval of any of these chicks, but if I immediately adopt a "fuck you" stance to any woman who ever flaked on me in the slightest sense, I'd get laid pretty goddamn sparsely.
And, actually, that's kind of been the problem I'm dealing with.
One unreplied text, failed hookup, or vaguely snarky comment and I'm left with smouldering pride and a bitter taste in my mouth that gives me zero desire to ever speak with said girl again (which I prettymuch always follow through on), when in retrospect I'm left feeling like I may have prematurely tossed aside a decent prospect. And yet, on the other hand, I still feel like anything less would be a compromise of my dignity.

Like I said, kind of trying to figure things out.
Just curious what you guys think.

Found your problem right there in bold. All those things are minor forms of disrespect, no doubt. Some guys would see them as cause to walk, while others would be more patient. That's a matter of personal discretion. The problem, though, is that you are letting these things bother you. You are too emotionally invested in the outcome with each girl, so you find yourself in the position of being forced to put up with disrespect that is bothering you in order to pursue the bang.

Personally, I will let minor disrespect slide once if the vibe is otherwise good. But if it becomes a pattern, I'm out. Next.

That's the problem. You don't have an abundance mentality. Approach more. Game more. You shouldn't have to put up with disrespect, because you should have multiple prospects on your radar at any given point. Truth be told, it's almost impossible for a man NOT to be a pussy beggar if he's only got one pussy on his radar! We love pussy too much for it to be any other way, and women know this. Your only real defense against becoming a pussy beggar is to put yourself in a position where pussy is abundant. The easiest way to make pussy abundant is to continually approach new girls and work your game.

You will know your game is tight when you laugh when a girl disrespects you, immediately tell her goodbye and delete her number and never give her a second thought because you've got so many other hot prospects vying for your time. You won't even be mad or even annoyed, you'll be too busy with other women to even care.

[churros]

In countries like Russia, persistence is part of the game. Guys keep going even when rejected, and sometimes get the bang. What's to say we're not cutting off US chicks too quickly? Not talking about cases of obvious disrepect here, but, say, taking several dates for the bang, or simple ambivalence on her part.

[Repo]

(08-12-2017 07:59 PM)churros Wrote:  

In countries like Russia, persistence is part of the game. Guys keep going even when rejected, and sometimes get the bang. What's to say we're not cutting off US chicks too quickly? Not talking about cases of obvious disrepect here, but, say, taking several dates for the bang, or simple ambivalence on her part.

Its not that you won't get it if you go on a couple more dates (though it does become less likely), its why bother when there are other women who will give it up faster. So unless your looking for a wife. . .

[Kieran]

I kind of agree with Scorpion and see the value in that approach, but personally I will chase even beyond those boundaries (with the exception of disrespect, unless she apologises for it genuinely). Being able to chase without being needy and attached to the outcome is the trick and the best way to do this is to have lots of girls in the rotation and pipeline. At times that I have limited prospects and chase, that's usually when my game gets weak and I start reacting to her and not the reverse. Be careful though as when I look back it's usually the girls that kept me on that cat string that became oneitis cases, where even with a rotation of regular girls I'd be lying in bed with one of them thinking how to get the oneitis.

[Highpool]

2 passes at the same girl and if she's still cold after the second, forget her.

[crdr]

My persistence has a goal. You gotta remember, when a chick says no to you, the longer she's on the market the less valuable she is. The longer you are the market the more valuable you are. Always stay on the market homie and never settle. Don't believe me? You probably have guy friends who married the first thing that said "Hi" to them. How's their status game? My guess they are some corporate slave for some nameless corporation.

There's a chick who isn't even in grade school marinating for you.
Focus on yourself. I do it all the time. I'm successful guy and my practical joke is how chicks say no to me and I'm the ticket to their dreams...
Very much like Undercover Boss.

Have fun with it. The girls think they have the power. That's an illusion. You have the power if you choose to wield it.

Personally, my attitude is "This chick can't be too bright or valuable if she said 'No' to me." and continue to build value discreetly. This is how you get attractive chicks.
Let's be honest, most good-looking chicks carry a ton of credit debt or they are supremely spoiled. You gotta let her know and more importantly, you know that you don't play yourself.
Scorpion is right.

[The Stronger Sex]

I'm a fan of low-lying fruit. I fish for signs of attraction and then attack. Once you know she's attracted to you, you're halfway there. I don't waste time with females who seem disinterested after a first approach.

My approach is:

Look her in the eye. IDoes she seem interested?
a) Yes - I'm half-way there.
b) No - Is she hot/is there an easy opportunity? - Talk to her.
Does the bitch shield melt?
A. Yes - I'm half-way there
B. No - Move on. She's not worth my time.

[Rhyme or Reason]

(08-13-2017 12:57 PM)The Stronger Sex Wrote:  

I'm a fan of low-lying fruit. I fish for signs of attraction and then attack. Once you know she's attracted to you, you're halfway there. I don't waste time with females who seem disinterested after a first approach.

My approach is:

Look her in the eye. IDoes she seem interested?
a) Yes - I'm half-way there.
b) No - Is she hot/is there an easy opportunity? - Talk to her.
Does the bitch shield melt?
A. Yes - I'm half-way there
B. No - Move on. She's not worth my time.

The problem with chasing low hanging fruit is sometimes it's deceptive. The approach you're laying out doesn't account for the time waster variety of lizard. I'm talking about the one that intentionally gives off all the signals to everyone while maximizing the attention she can get, and not putting out, or at least not putting out right then and there which essentially makes her a waste of your time.. I've seen lots of guys get mislead by their thirst and favor their odds with the tease instead of sniffing out the bullshit and going after real susceptible prey which isn't always as forward.

Most of the time the chicks that really want to get banged aren't the ones that seem like they are on the very surface of things.

[Chris Brown]

Life is short and I value my time. Dont chase them, replace them.

[Vill@in]

Being able to read social cues and vibes from a female is important. A lot of times they like to play little dumb games and have you give chase. It's up to you if you want to chase or not. Personally I don't have the time. Abundance Mentality obviously cures this. But being able to read the subtle cues she puts out (or doesn't) is the key to knowing if you have a chance to get into her pants.

My roommate is terrible at reading these signs from females. He makes an ass of himself so much and doesn't get the hint that a girl isn't interested. On one hand I commend him on his ZFG attitude, but on the other hand he looks like a fool throwing shit at a wall and hoping it sticks.

[Palo_alto]

(01-17-2013 12:05 AM)scorpion Wrote:  

Persistence is something you apply to the game itself, not individual girls. You are supposed to be persistent in pursuit of getting pussy, not getting the pussy of any one particular girl.

If a girl rejects you, disrespects you or otherwise makes it clear she's not interested, then don't waste your time and demean yourself by trying to desperately gain her approval.

Move on. Next.

Be persistent in your quest for pussy, but don't be a pussy beggar for any one girl.

AMEN

[XXL]

2 steps forward 1 step back as usual.

Go push it for for what you want. If challenged try different angle. If fails step back and focus on other things (girls). Come back later.

When you have a couple of girls you are seeing it wil come naturally to you.

[Disco_Volante]

If you go full beta on a girl to where she has turned you down multiple times....if you snap out of it and she sees you around fucking other girls it drives them absolutely insane. I did this unintentionally once without even realizing it. It has to be genuine though... a completely unique place in her mind that she can't categorize anymore.

[Danthetallguy]

(01-17-2013 12:19 AM)HotLava Wrote:  

Scorpion's answer above is correct. In terms of targeting a particular girl, it would mean persistent while maintaining your dignity and not being desperate. For instance, a girl didn't return my text a few days ago. I know she's into me, so I'm going to text her in a week or two (aloof but persistent). I could have gotten upset about the lack of a return text, and sent her a buch of nasty texts. I can afford to lose her anyway, so who cares.

yup

[Kid Twist]

(08-13-2017 08:53 AM)crdr Wrote:  

There's a chick who isn't even in grade school marinating for you.
Focus on yourself. I do it all the time. I'm successful guy and my practical joke is how chicks say no to me and I'm the ticket to their dreams...
Very much like Undercover Boss.

Have fun with it. The girls think they have the power. That's an illusion. You have the power if you choose to wield it.

Great stuff, crdr