[kenny_powers]

Is this movie really about Bin-Laden or is it more Hollywood Girl Power propaganda?

I saw the movie today in DC - a Capitol City of feminists and betas. No audience reaction to torture, violence, or killing Bin Laden. The only time the audience had any reaction (laughter and nods of positive reinforcement) was when the lead character delivered snarky comments to men, was disrepectful to male authority, yelled threats to her direct command, and made condescending remarks to the soldiers. Every time she did this, the males actors in the movie acted impressed by her behavior and gave her the benefit of the doubt.

It should be noted that the lead character, Maya, has no man in her life, no friends, and had no success at the CIA for 12 years. What was she doing there in the first place?

Anybody watch the movie yet and have similar thoughts?

[Sourcecode]

Its 2 hours of paper pushing with a couple mild torture scenes and one explosion..then its a raid on bin ladens house for the next thirty minutes.
I thought it was very boring.

[Beyond Borders]

Complete propaganda. Won't watch.

[Timoteo]

I recall Jessica Chastain talking about how impressed she was with the character when she read the script, and yeah, it was all about how great she thought it was the a woman played such a key role in Bin Laden being hunted down and killed. I didn't see the film yet, but you always have to wonder how much of the dialogue and character behavior is Hollywood exaggeration, and how much is close to fact.

[tenderman100]

I have a nephew who did two tours in Afghanistan with the 82nd Airborne. In case you don't know, the 82nd is one of the elite units in the Army, they still do parachute jumping. I have heard stories, needless to say.

He has unbelievable contempt for the vast majority of Special Forces guys, especially Seals. He told me as they were waiting to head home last time from Camp Leatherneck, a Special Forces commander came and gave a talk to his unit, attempting to recruit guys. No one expressed interest -- they had seen them work, and they did not seem very special at all.

In his view, all this stuff about Seal Team 6 and SF in general is glorification and propaganda. He would say, "if we had six months to rehearse one operation, it would go flawlessly too." He said they used the same rules for in house entry that the Seals do -- as soon as someone fires at you, as happened there, everybody in there is a target.

[UgSlayer]

Was it really a woman who pushed for the operation? I guess we'll never know.

In the movie, there is a wallpaper on her computer in DC of her and another woman. A subtle clue that she is a lesbian

[BIGINJAPAN]

Won't watch because I know it is all blatant propaganda. But I have read the reviews. Give me a fucking break that some woman in the CIA who chastises men/her bosses is a hero. She would be lucky to be in the mail room, if that. We all know in the CIA, FBI, NSA and wherever else you go along to get along. There is no individual thinking, it is supposed to be all one big team. But somehow a strong powerful, individual woman is responsible for ending the worlds biggest man hunt.

[NFallin]

Was very disappointed as I was expecting big things from the film.

It was like I was watching women's powerlifting.

[Handsome Creepy Eel]

The fact that white knights rose up in anger over Katheryn Bigelow not being nominated for Oscar like she was for The Hurt Locker tells me enough. Likely the film is pretentious and empty.

[Timoteo]

Apparently, Jessica Chastain won the Golden Globe for her role in the movie.

[kosko]

(01-14-2013 11:39 AM)Timoteo Wrote:  

Apparently, Jessica Chastain won the Golden Globe for her role in the movie.

Of course she did.

This movie is nothing more than a rag piece of State propaganda. The Govt had to create the story of this mission since many whom actually were in the mission are ... Dead.

We have an award winning film supposedly on the true story of Bin Laden being killed but nobody has seen his corpse/body.

The Golden Globes for this film are too legitimize its story which isn't true. The Golden Globes have been rigged since they started, that is nothing new either. But this movie is a classic case of 'Art creating reality'. I guarantee this movie will be the reference point of any narrative about the Bin Laden killing event going forward since no legitimate real sources exist.

The Army is known to clamp down and/or partner with hollywood. If a movie is not favorable the Army will try and get things tweaked as much as possible. Or at times they partner with films to let then use tech and such for inclusion in their films. The Katy Perry 'part of me' music video is a example of this. In that video the Army worked hand in hand to help create the video which in the end turns out to be nothing more than a propaganda rag that would make North Korea blush.

This is not a knock on the Men whom serve but the upper levels of the Forces like people In this thread have noted is a stiff and fragmented team game. You play by the rules or you get bounced, demoted, or gagged - there is no grey area. If they wanted to make a movie they should of made on on the intelligence officers whom were all gagged when trying to direct high level people towards Bin Laden back in 1997, 1999, 2001, and 2002.

[EasyMoney]

They mananged to make what i find to be one of the most interesting things going on in the world now - the collaboration of the highlest levels of our intelligence aparatus and our special forces apparatus working together to take out high value terrorists - look completely boring.

About an hour into the movie I was like fuck can we just kill him already and be done with it. The movie had none of what made the hurt locker such a fun movie to watch.

[AntiTrace]

(01-13-2013 10:44 PM)tenderman100 Wrote:  

I have a nephew who did two tours in Afghanistan with the 82nd Airborne. In case you don't know, the 82nd is one of the elite units in the Army, they still do parachute jumping. I have heard stories, needless to say.

He has unbelievable contempt for the vast majority of Special Forces guys, especially Seals. He told me as they were waiting to head home last time from Camp Leatherneck, a Special Forces commander came and gave a talk to his unit, attempting to recruit guys. No one expressed interest -- they had seen them work, and they did not seem very special at all.

In his view, all this stuff about Seal Team 6 and SF in general is glorification and propaganda. He would say, "if we had six months to rehearse one operation, it would go flawlessly too." He said they used the same rules for in house entry that the Seals do -- as soon as someone fires at you, as happened there, everybody in there is a target.

82nd is not elite. You can get DA orders for 82nd, which means any swinging dick can be in the 82nd. Much like the 101st. Or Big Red One. Or 1st Cav. They do have a pretty legit history, but they are still regular army. Regular army is regular army, anyone who claims otherwise is a glory hound.

And your buddy is simply spouting hater aid on SF. Sure they don't live up daily to the ungodly pedestal some people put them on, but I assure your if your ass was on the line you would be much better off with an SF unit coming to save you.

As for the original question I haven't seen it and don't plan it. Hollywood is just trying to ride the gravy train and the military is using it as a recruiting tool. You can't knock either but it isn't a good recipe for a movie.

The book is legit though. "No easy day".

[Balkanite]

Don't understand how regular army guys can criticize SF guys. SF guys are the elite of the elite on planet earth. The 82nd has some history and I understand that I've seen band of brothers 4 times (awesome). But there's no comparison. If I were taken hostage anywhere, I want team six to get me.

[Teedub]

The elite know no bounds when pushing propaganda for the feminist dream. I don't understand how they think the world would actually function if it was run entirely by women. It would be the most odd, unnatural place in history, obviously. Sexuality and sex-drive plays too big a role in decision making, and it would turn the actions of those in the friend-zone into geopolitical decisions.

[tenderman100]

(01-14-2013 01:02 PM)AntiTrace Wrote:  

82nd is not elite. You can get DA orders for 82nd, which means any swinging dick can be in the 82nd. Much like the 101st. Or Big Red One. Or 1st Cav. They do have a pretty legit history, but they are still regular army. Regular army is regular army, anyone who claims otherwise is a glory hound.

And your buddy is simply spouting hater aid on SF. Sure they don't live up daily to the ungodly pedestal some people put them on, but I assure your if your ass was on the line you would be much better off with an SF unit coming to save you.

First, he never claimed to me that 82nd was "elite." I said that. I said it because the combat arm of the division trains to for very specialized combat tasks, such as taking airfields and the like. Just so you know, when Libya was going down, a full brigade of the 82nd was on full time alert.

As for SF, I can only take his word for it. He spent 18 months attached to SF in country and the SF guys did nothing more or anything better than what the 82nd did in the operations they were involved in -- and there was some bad shit that went down. He was actually looking forward to working with them in close quarters and was actually considering going to selection, but the experience in Afghanistan soured him on that.

As for glory hounding, you don't know him and what you say is out of line, especially since he was injured while he was there.

[Vicious]

Whenever I need my fill of conspiracy theories I know that kosko delivers!

[Hotwheels]

Airborne troops are generally considered a step or more above your everyday groundpounder...

Maybe not elite status, but I think you get what I am saying.

[Btbob]

(01-14-2013 04:52 PM)tenderman100 Wrote:  

(01-14-2013 01:02 PM)AntiTrace Wrote:  

82nd is not elite. You can get DA orders for 82nd, which means any swinging dick can be in the 82nd. Much like the 101st. Or Big Red One. Or 1st Cav. They do have a pretty legit history, but they are still regular army. Regular army is regular army, anyone who claims otherwise is a glory hound.

And your buddy is simply spouting hater aid on SF. Sure they don't live up daily to the ungodly pedestal some people put them on, but I assure your if your ass was on the line you would be much better off with an SF unit coming to save you.

First, he never claimed to me that 82nd was "elite." I said that. I said it because the combat arm of the division trains to for very specialized combat tasks, such as taking airfields and the like. Just so you know, when Libya was going down, a full brigade of the 82nd was on full time alert.

As for SF, I can only take his word for it. He spent 18 months attached to SF in country and the SF guys did nothing more or anything better than what the 82nd did in the operations they were involved in -- and there was some bad shit that went down. He was actually looking forward to working with them in close quarters and was actually considering going to selection, but the experience in Afghanistan soured him on that.

As for glory hounding, you don't know him and what you say is out of line, especially since he was injured while he was there.

Point by point I'll address the off topic stuff first.

82nd is not the premier airfield siezure force and will never get that mission. It's part of the METL for the Ranger Regiment.

Yeah, It's called the Global Reaction force and it's been a 18th Airborne corp task since goldwater-nichols.

I know where he was at and which SOTF he worked for. To put it succinctly he was conducting resupply and base security missions. Most likely he was pretty bored and it's easy to look at the guys with the relaxed grooming standards and all the cool gear and be a little jealous.

Everyone gets injured on a long enough timeline in Afghanistan. Most people several times. I'm not denigrating anything he has done, but a lot of guys have done the same thing.


As for the movie: the NextLevelUp post covers everything pretty well. The SEAL stuff was as accurate as it could be without giving up operational techniques and the knowledge of actual capabilities.

Also, Red headed chick could get it.

[Luxe]

I'm always sensing implicit anti-American sentiment here.

Quote:

his movie is nothing more than a rag piece of State propaganda. The Govt had to create the story of this mission since many whom actually were in the mission are ... Dead.

Do you have any evidence to support this claim?

Quote:

It should be noted that the lead character, Maya, has no man in her life, no friends, and had no success at the CIA for 12 years. What was she doing there in the first place?

I don't think she is a real person, rather a composite of several people.

Anything less than total destruction to Bin Laden and his organization would be beta.

[tenderman100]

(01-14-2013 07:03 PM)Btbob Wrote:  

Point by point I'll address the off topic stuff first.

I know where he was at and which SOTF he worked for. To put it succinctly he was conducting resupply and base security missions. Most likely he was pretty bored and it's easy to look at the guys with the relaxed grooming standards and all the cool gear and be a little jealous.

Everyone gets injured on a long enough timeline in Afghanistan. Most people several times. I'm not denigrating anything he has done, but a lot of guys have done the same thing.

While he was at Bragg, the 82nd practiced taking airfields.

In Afghanistan, he did not do resupply. Other guys supplied him.

He did extensive patrols. He saw action. He killed guys. He saw comrades of his die.

Boredom affects everyone, particularly there.

Of course he was being "denigrated" as a "glory hound." It was out of line.

[deuce]

(01-14-2013 07:03 PM)Btbob Wrote:  

(01-14-2013 04:52 PM)tenderman100 Wrote:  

(01-14-2013 01:02 PM)AntiTrace Wrote:  

82nd is not elite. You can get DA orders for 82nd, which means any swinging dick can be in the 82nd. Much like the 101st. Or Big Red One. Or 1st Cav. They do have a pretty legit history, but they are still regular army. Regular army is regular army, anyone who claims otherwise is a glory hound.

And your buddy is simply spouting hater aid on SF. Sure they don't live up daily to the ungodly pedestal some people put them on, but I assure your if your ass was on the line you would be much better off with an SF unit coming to save you.

First, he never claimed to me that 82nd was "elite." I said that. I said it because the combat arm of the division trains to for very specialized combat tasks, such as taking airfields and the like. Just so you know, when Libya was going down, a full brigade of the 82nd was on full time alert.

As for SF, I can only take his word for it. He spent 18 months attached to SF in country and the SF guys did nothing more or anything better than what the 82nd did in the operations they were involved in -- and there was some bad shit that went down. He was actually looking forward to working with them in close quarters and was actually considering going to selection, but the experience in Afghanistan soured him on that.

As for glory hounding, you don't know him and what you say is out of line, especially since he was injured while he was there.

Point by point I'll address the off topic stuff first.

82nd is not the premier airfield siezure force and will never get that mission. It's part of the METL for the Ranger Regiment.

Yeah, It's called the Global Reaction force and it's been a 18th Airborne corp task since goldwater-nichols.

I know where he was at and which SOTF he worked for. To put it succinctly he was conducting resupply and base security missions. Most likely he was pretty bored and it's easy to look at the guys with the relaxed grooming standards and all the cool gear and be a little jealous.

Everyone gets injured on a long enough timeline in Afghanistan. Most people several times. I'm not denigrating anything he has done, but a lot of guys have done the same thing.


As for the movie: the NextLevelUp post covers everything pretty well. The SEAL stuff was as accurate as it could be without giving up operational techniques and the knowledge of actual capabilities.

Also, Red headed chick could get it.

I was in the 82nd before moving on to other things. There's quality guys in Division for sure but no selection process for the line units and there are some shitbags. Having said that, there are some douches in SOF units as well for sure.

In my opinion it comes down to funding, training, and personnel selection. SOF units are able to perform at a higher level because of on one hand they select for higher-performing individuals but on the other hand they usually get a blank check for training and are outfitted with top of the line support. They're usually not wasting training days doing Division Review, parades, and DRF-7 support operations (painting rocks, picking up trash in the base housing areas, etc.).

If every unit got these resources though, the costs would be astronomical. And even though it's not sexy, operations like base security, convoy security, supply, etc. are necessary to the total effort. Division of labor and all that.

If you gave a good rifle company commander in the 82nd, (or 10th Mountain, or 101st, etc.) solid NCOs, the ability to selectively recruit personnel, and high levels of funding and training time, that unit would become capable of some amazing things (see Ranger battalion).

As far as the attitudes of SOF personnel, what you had after 9/11 was personnel being able to go straight from the street into special operations. Usually people had to cut their teeth and gain experience in unglamorous line units before going to a selection process. Now people can go straight from basic training to doing the cool guy stuff and in some individuals this can breed a "too cool for school" attitude (how do you know a SEAL is in the room? He'll tell you haha), but most guys are just normal dudes, there's gonna be assholery everywhere.

At the end of the day I'll take the kid who did 3 tours in Baghdad as a regular joe 11B with a line unit than Joe Cool who went straight to SF when he was 21.

For the record I think Zero Dark Thirty and Hurt Locker both sucked donkey balls.

But what do I know, I'm just a civilian now

[LoveBug]

I'd say it was mediocre, to say it was a main contender for awards is surprising, although I at least could sit through it and didn't have to leave the theatre. Haven't checked but I wonder if the lead female's character is actually a true story, and all the things she did in that movie

[Grit]

Here's my beef with the movie: (SPOILERS AHEAD)

1. The Maya character makes a comment to the main SEAL like:

"I wanted to use a bomb. I didn't want to use you with all your dip chewing and yahoo bullshit."

At that level, professionals are not going to have a resentful attitude toward other professionals. I think this is Hollywood drama for the plot mostly, but also feminist agenda trying to portray women as bossy and able to "command respect" from professionals at such a high level.

2. Maya routinely screams at her Arab and white field agents, white boss, and other 'white patriarchal' figures. Yet she constantly hugs and kisses her quiet and nonagressive black field agent. Could be coincidence, but was enough to be noticeable.

3. Portrayal of the geeky CIA agent as sadistic with prisoners. Entirely plausible but I don't like the suggestion that 'normal' guys turn sadistic behavior on and off. I felt like the portrayal was scapegoating the character for performing actions seemingly approved by his superior officers.

4. The Maya character says to the Chief of Staff something like:

"I'm the motherfucker who found this compound."

The movie intentionally tried to make her seem tough and empowered by saying this. But it felt more like "god, no one is going to listen to this bitter bitch."

PS - Jessica Chastain has a huuuuuge manjaw. anyone else get distracted by that?

[Beyond Borders]

(01-14-2013 10:34 PM)Luxe Wrote:  

I'm always sensing implicit anti-American sentiment here.

It's not anti-American to believe the American government, or government in general, engages in propaganda.

Definition of propaganda from Wikipedia:

Quote:

Propaganda is a form of communication that is aimed towards influencing the attitude of a community toward some cause or position by presenting only one side of an argument. Propaganda is usually repeated and dispersed over a wide variety of media in order to create the chosen result in audience attitudes.

As opposed to impartially providing information, propaganda, in its most basic sense, presents information primarily to influence an audience. Propaganda often presents facts selectively (thus possibly lying by omission) to encourage a particular synthesis, or uses loaded messages to produce an emotional rather than rational response to the information presented. The desired result is a change of the attitude toward the subject in the target audience to further a political agenda. Propaganda can be used as a form of political warfare.

Is it anti-American to question the government's actions and motives? Is it more patriotic to blindly accept and avoid criticism of ourselves at all costs?

(01-14-2013 10:34 PM)Luxe Wrote:  

Quote:

his movie is nothing more than a rag piece of State propaganda. The Govt had to create the story of this mission since many whom actually were in the mission are ... Dead.

Do you have any evidence to support this claim?

That they're all dead? Was the first I've personally heard it as I haven't been following the story but a quick Google search raises some interesting results.

http://wideshut.co.uk/another-seal-team-...mber-dead/

Quote:

Yet another member of the highly touted Navy SEAL Team Six, who allegedly carried out the dubious raid on Bin Laden’s compound, has wound up dead according to Fox News.

The death reportedly occurred during the rescue of an American doctor over the weekend, who had been kidnapped five days prior outside of Kabul by the Taliban.

While the identity of the SEAL has not been disclosed, the reported death joins a list of other stories that suggest SEAL Team Six are dropping like flies following their supposed involvement in the May, 2011, operation.

It was reported in August last year that 22 Navy SEALs, most of whom belonged to Team 6, died after their helicopter was shot down in Afghanistan [1]. This was the largest loss of life in a single day since the 2001 invasion.

So far there is absolutely nothing to corroborate the official US Government’s account of what happened at the alleged Bin Laden compound, nor whether anything did indeed happen at all.

I don't know much about these incidents, how many have actually died, and how credible that website is, but it does appear an unusual number have met their demise - realizing that what is "unusual and what isn't can be highly subjective...

(01-14-2013 10:34 PM)Luxe Wrote:  

Quote:

It should be noted that the lead character, Maya, has no man in her life, no friends, and had no success at the CIA for 12 years. What was she doing there in the first place?

I don't think she is a real person, rather a composite of several people.

In my opinion, she was a composite character profiled and designed to purposely identify with the values of modern America. Hollywood often does this but I for one find it alarming when they do it regarding a controversial case where we still know so little about the facts and where it's so important the government gets us to believe them.

This is why it reeks of being propaganda with a government hand in it.

Quote:

Anything less than total destruction to Bin Laden and his organization would be beta.

If you completely believe everything you've been told about Osama bin Laden, that might be true.

(01-16-2013 02:32 PM)LoveBug Wrote:  

I'd say it was mediocre, to say it was a main contender for awards is surprising, although I at least could sit through it and didn't have to leave the theatre. Haven't checked but I wonder if the lead female's character is actually a true story, and all the things she did in that movie

Doesn't surprise me at all given what I believe the film to be.

(01-16-2013 07:36 PM)Grit Wrote:  

I think this is Hollywood drama for the plot mostly, but also feminist agenda trying to portray women as bossy and able to "command respect" from professionals at such a high level.

As mentioned above, I think this has more to do with them creating a character Americans emotionally identify with already. Strong female leading roles are "in" right now and ripe for use in any propaganda film.

Quote:

3. Portrayal of the geeky CIA agent as sadistic with prisoners. Entirely plausible but I don't like the suggestion that 'normal' guys turn sadistic behavior on and off. I felt like the portrayal was scapegoating the character for performing actions seemingly approved by his superior officers.

I haven't seen it, but this from Wikipedia offers a possible explanation:

Quote:

The film has been both criticized and praised for its handling of subject matter involving interrogation and torture. Glenn Greenwald in The Guardian has stated that the film takes a pro-torture stance, describing it as "pernicious propaganda" and stating that it "presents torture as its CIA proponents and administrators see it: as a dirty, ugly business that is necessary to protect America",[36] while Frank Bruni similarly concluded that the film appears to suggest "No waterboarding, no Bin Laden".[25]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero_Dark_Thirty