[Pacesetter20]

How about this one?

[speakeasy]

(10-13-2012 04:17 AM)ElJefe Wrote:  

Racism has nothing to do with this. It's just your hamster going into overdrive. Obama is pretty progressive. Just read Dreams from My Father. He's not worse than many other progessives, but he's pretty bad.

I know Obama the man is a progressive. But does he govern like one? I'd say hardly. It's progressives themselves that consider him the biggest letdown. Someone governing as a progressive would've closed Guantanamo on day one and most likely repealed the Patriot Act, for starters. A progressive also wouldn't have gotten involved in Libya, Yemen and now even Syria. A progressive would've fought for single-payer healthcare as they have in Europe, not the Obamacare as it currently stands. A progressive wouldn't have appointed wall street insiders such as Geitner to Treasury Secretary(talk about the foxes guarding the hens).

[ElJefe]

(10-13-2012 04:37 AM)speakeasy Wrote:  

(10-13-2012 04:17 AM)ElJefe Wrote:  

Racism has nothing to do with this. It's just your hamster going into overdrive. Obama is pretty progressive. Just read Dreams from My Father. He's not worse than many other progessives, but he's pretty bad.

I know Obama the man is a progressive. But does he govern like one? I'd say hardly. It's progressives themselves that consider him the biggest letdown. Someone governing as a progressive would've closed Guantanamo on day one and most likely repealed the Patriot Act, for starters. A progressive also wouldn't have gotten involved in Libya, Yemen and now even Syria. A progressive would've fought for single-payer healthcare as they have in Europe, not the Obamacare as it currently stands. A progressive wouldn't have appointed wall street insiders such as Geitner to Treasury Secretary(talk about the foxes guarding the hens).

Actually, foreign policy is one are where I think Obama isn't too bad. I abhorred the way he got started groveling to muslims, but since then I think he's done pretty well.

Guantanomo is obviously necessary. Every left-wing who gets elected promises to push for its closure or some such and they always change their minds.

The Patriot Act without a sunset clause is a disaster. Are there any politicians besides Ron Paul in favor of abolishing it? I know many conservatives want to get rid of it.

[Excelsior]

(10-13-2012 04:17 AM)ElJefe Wrote:  

Racism has nothing to do with this.

This is the United States. Racism has everything to do with this. To precisely what extent is debatable, but any claim to the contrary is simple delusion.

Quote:

It's just your common sense going into overdrive.

Fixed that for you.

Quote:

Obama is pretty progressive.

As Speakeasy has already shown, no he isn't (not in practice, anyway).

[Soma]

(10-13-2012 04:37 AM)speakeasy Wrote:  

A progressive wouldn't have appointed wall street insiders such as Geitner to Treasury Secretary(talk about the foxes guarding the hens).

To be factually correct here, Geithner is a career bureaucrat and central banker, but not a Wall Street insider. Were you thinking of his predecessor Paulson, the former CEO of Goldman Sachs (who took the job upon retirement to take advantage of a tax loophole and avoid paying taxes on his $700M equity stake in Goldman)?

[Tex Pro]

(10-13-2012 03:05 AM)speakeasy Wrote:  

(10-13-2012 01:06 AM)Pacesetter20 Wrote:  

(10-13-2012 12:37 AM)Athlone McGinnis Wrote:  

At least they aren't basing their opposition on the bigoted notion that Romney is somehow "not American" and "not like us". She's an idiot, just of a different brand. Like I said in the other thread: see two devils, pick the one you dislike the least.

The reason I get more worked up over the conservative examples stems from the bigotry ("he's a muslim", "he's not like us", "he wasn't born here", etc, etc) used so often to attack Obama. Yes, I have a sore spot for that kind of shit.

Actually, a case could be made that he is anti-American and it has nothing to do with where he was or was not born, but rather his world-view.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/con...05485.html

The right-wing visceral hatred of Obama is outrageous. If anybody should be angry at him, it's the left-wing. Obama by global standards would be considered center-right. He governs as a moderate, and that his temperamental disposition as well. What are they so fucking angry about? As far as I see it, he's the only one making any concessions. He's given the right everything they want. They wanted to extend the Bush tax cuts, he gave it to them. They wanted to finish the fight in Iraq and Afghanistan, he gave it to them. They wanted to drill for domestic oil, and domestic oil production has increased under Obama. They wanted to keep the patriot act, he has kept it, they wanted to keep Guantanamo, he has kept it. They want a crackdown on illegal immigration, Obama has deported record numbers of illegals to the chagrin of the Hispanic community.

Other than abortion and gay marriage, what the the fuck is so left-wing about Obama?? The left has more reason to be angry at him than the right. Let's just be honest here, a lot of this shit has to do with the fact that he's black. It's undeniable.

Who gives two fucks about global standards?

There is plenty of room to the right of Obama.

Hell, some Republicans think Romney is too much of a moderate.

[ElJefe]

(10-13-2012 07:24 AM)Athlone McGinnis Wrote:  

This is the United States. Racism has everything to do with this. To precisely what extent is debatable, but any claim to the contrary is simple delusion.

As Speakeasy has already shown, no he isn't (not in practice, anyway).

Whatever, kiddo.

Obama won 95 percent of the black vote and nearly half the white vote, because whites are racist and blacks aren't. If I don't vote for Obama and I'm white, it's racist. If I vote for the black candidate no matter what, and I'm black, I'm just common-sense. What a stupid double-standard.

Any other candidate than Obama would've been waaay behind in the opinion polls with an economy doing this poorly. Based on the realclearpolitics electoral map, Obama stands to become the first President EVER to win inspite of such a dismal economic situation.

That's evidence for a lack of racism. Against blacks at least. But the degree of anti-white racism is however reaching levels that are driving whites more towards Republicans, as Asians and Hispanics increasingly vote Democrat. So I agree, there is racism, but the empirical evidence indicates it's in the opposite direction.

I'd be interested in empirical evidence to the contrary. I can be swayed.

[Deluge]

I know you've seen this map before, now look at the bottom of it.

[ElJefe]

(10-13-2012 09:02 AM)P Dog Wrote:  

I know you've seen this map before, now look at the bottom of it.

The number of whites voting democrat is constant. Ok.

And oh yeah... a small state in the deep south has a serious case of racism. 1 in 10 whites are apparently racist in Louisiana. This is a big national issue... how?

[The_CEO]

(10-13-2012 08:13 AM)The Texas Prophet Wrote:  

(10-13-2012 03:05 AM)speakeasy Wrote:  

(10-13-2012 01:06 AM)Pacesetter20 Wrote:  

(10-13-2012 12:37 AM)Athlone McGinnis Wrote:  

At least they aren't basing their opposition on the bigoted notion that Romney is somehow "not American" and "not like us". She's an idiot, just of a different brand. Like I said in the other thread: see two devils, pick the one you dislike the least.

The reason I get more worked up over the conservative examples stems from the bigotry ("he's a muslim", "he's not like us", "he wasn't born here", etc, etc) used so often to attack Obama. Yes, I have a sore spot for that kind of shit.

Actually, a case could be made that he is anti-American and it has nothing to do with where he was or was not born, but rather his world-view.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/con...05485.html

The right-wing visceral hatred of Obama is outrageous. If anybody should be angry at him, it's the left-wing. Obama by global standards would be considered center-right. He governs as a moderate, and that his temperamental disposition as well. What are they so fucking angry about? As far as I see it, he's the only one making any concessions. He's given the right everything they want. They wanted to extend the Bush tax cuts, he gave it to them. They wanted to finish the fight in Iraq and Afghanistan, he gave it to them. They wanted to drill for domestic oil, and domestic oil production has increased under Obama. They wanted to keep the patriot act, he has kept it, they wanted to keep Guantanamo, he has kept it. They want a crackdown on illegal immigration, Obama has deported record numbers of illegals to the chagrin of the Hispanic community.

Other than abortion and gay marriage, what the the fuck is so left-wing about Obama?? The left has more reason to be angry at him than the right. Let's just be honest here, a lot of this shit has to do with the fact that he's black. It's undeniable.

There is plenty of room to the right of Obama.

Yeah, well of course b/c he's a centrist - there's plenty of room to the left of him too. Many of his key policies derive from Republicans - like the affordable healthcare act (originally proposed and pushed by Dole and Gingrich), and obviously based on a model that Romney put into place in Mass.

Politicians like Jeb B. are trying to bring the Republican party back toward the middle.

[ManAbout]

We know how Republicans make a big deal about Black voters supporting Obama.

[Excelsior]

(10-13-2012 08:54 AM)ElJefe Wrote:  

Whatever, kiddo.

I'd normally defer to your remarkable "aged wisdom" by default, but I guess I'm feeling like making more rational arguments today.

Quote:

Obama won 95 percent of the black vote and nearly half the white vote, because whites are racist and blacks aren't.

It is interesting how conservatives like to throw that stat out there. It is also interesting that they choose to leave out the following facts:

Al Gore received 90% of the black vote in 2000.
John Kerry got 88% in 2004.
Clinton was in the mid-80's during both of his campaigns.
Mondale received 91% of the black vote in 1984.
Dukakis got 89% in 1988.

Blacks, it seems, tend to vote as a monolith in favor of the democrats whether the candidate is white or black.
Yet when blacks repeat the same voting patterns they've shown for decades in favor of a black candidate, this is an indication of blacks showing "racism" by supporting the black candidate no matter what.

Quote:

If I don't vote for Obama and I'm white, it's racist.

Is that what I said? Funny, I don't recall.

Do me a favor and point that quote out to me, would you? Much obliged.

Quote:

If I vote for the black candidate no matter what,

Not what blacks are doing (they have favored white democrats as a near monolith as well), but go ahead...

Quote:

and I'm black, I'm just common-sense. What a stupid double-standard.

These strawmen you're fighting, are they fun to engage?

Quote:

Any other candidate than Obama would've been waaay behind in the opinion polls with an economy doing this poorly. Based on the realclearpolitics electoral map, Obama stands to become the first President EVER to win inspite of such a dismal economic situation.

...ignoring the fact that the economic situation has improved over the course of his presidency (abysmal when he started, merely mediocre/average at the moment).

Do you have evidence for your claims regarding Obama's exceptionalism given this reality? I'm sure there some sort of study or other research/academic evidence you've got in mind here.
(And this is without accounting for the distinct possibility that Obama loses)

Quote:

That's evidence for a lack of racism. Against blacks at least.

I don't buy your claim above.

Even if I did, however, I don't see how that shows there is a lack of racism against blacks, especially with Obama on track to get a much lower share of the white vote this time around than last.

Your argument actually has no real traction in the face of empirical research and evidence.

I do not actually expect you to really try to acknowledge this at all, though.

Quote:

But the degree of anti-white racism is however reaching levels that are driving whites more towards Republicans, as Asians and Hispanics increasingly vote Democrat. So I agree, there is racism, but the empirical evidence indicates it's in the opposite direction.

Sure, man.

[Excelsior]

[tenderman100]

(10-12-2012 11:05 PM)Tuthmosis Wrote:  

I've always liked Biden. Motherfucker's a straight-up G. You knew he was going to mop the floor with smug, little, know-it-all turd.

He has a track record of calling people out:

Biden is a senile idiot. Remember, can't help but notice those Indian accents at the 7-11. And that Obama! He's clean and articulate, doncha know.

[tenderman100]

Clint nails it -- and on cue, Biden performs just the way Clint describes him.

Joe Biden: Kind of a Grin With a Body Behind It

[tenderman100]

Biden -- for a clean articulate White House

[OGNorCal707]

I still can't wrap my head around why right-wingers hate Obama so much...? I also find it ironic that most of these guys probably voted for George W. Bush, and were most likely silent when he was running the country into a ditch. Then Obama takes office and these right-wingers want to crucify Obama for all the problems he inherited from the Bush administration. However, when you confront a right-winger about that, they got nothing to say, that or they spout off whatever diaherea they've heard on Fox News. Or they charge Obama with being a communist or a socialist, but ofcourse can't provide any logical or rational or logical reasoning behind their beliefs, kind of like the old Republican woman who someone posted a clip of page 3 of this thread.

[worldwidetraveler]

(10-14-2012 04:05 AM)OGNorCal707 Wrote:  

I still can't wrap my head around why right-wingers hate Obama so much...? I also find it ironic that most of these guys probably voted for George W. Bush, and were most likely silent when he was running the country into a ditch. Then Obama takes office and these right-wingers want to crucify Obama for all the problems he inherited from the Bush administration. However, when you confront a right-winger about that, they got nothing to say, that or they spout off whatever diaherea they've heard on Fox News. Or they charge Obama with being a communist or a socialist, but ofcourse can't provide any logical or rational or logical reasoning behind their beliefs, kind of like the old Republican woman who someone posted a clip of page 3 of this thread.

I can't either and that goes for people blindly following either party. All I know is I worked too hard to be taxed more and will probably head overseas. I could care less about what happens afterwards.

[tenderman100]

(10-14-2012 04:05 AM)OGNorCal707 Wrote:  

I still can't wrap my head around why right-wingers hate Obama so much...? I also find it ironic that most of these guys probably voted for George W. Bush, and were most likely silent when he was running the country into a ditch. Then Obama takes office and these right-wingers want to crucify Obama for all the problems he inherited from the Bush administration. However, when you confront a right-winger about that, they got nothing to say, that or they spout off whatever diaherea they've heard on Fox News. Or they charge Obama with being a communist or a socialist, but ofcourse can't provide any logical or rational or logical reasoning behind their beliefs, kind of like the old Republican woman who someone posted a clip of page 3 of this thread.

First of all, I am not a "right winger" -- if you mean by right winger someone who doesn't believe in evolution, find abortion abhorrent, or is a Christian religious nut.

But I do think Obama has zero business being president of the United States. Zero. The reasons -- and quite logical reasons -- are endless.

Here are a few.

While he inherited problems, he made them worse. The stimulus did shit.

He hates business. He hates Wall Street. Though he'll cowtow to the hedge fund bundlers (just one of many hypocrisies this guy indulges in).

He says one thing and does another. I'll close Guantanamo -- doesn't do it. I'll be the great uniter -- instead, becomes the great divider, letting the Stepford Pelosi and Ass't Vice Principal Harry Reid ram through a hugely unpopular bill with no bipartisan support. While running, he calls the Patriot Act a "shoddy and dangerous law" and then turns around and signs its extension.

He utters the most empty and vacous bullshit rhetoric. "This is the moment when the rise of the seas began to slow, and the planet began to heal." (uttered when he beat Hillary is a primary for Christ's sake).

He engages in strawman rhetoric, the rhetoric of false choice. It's the tiresome tactic of every demagogue. So in his 2009 State of the Union he says: I reject the view that says our problems will simply take care of themselves; that says government has no role in laying the foundation for our common prosperity. I wonder, who exactly has that view? Certainly not the vast majority of Republicans, who believe -- rightly or wrongly as one may argue -- that a government that has low taxes, fiscal restraint, reasonable regulation, and prudent monetary policies can -- ahem -- "lay the foundation" for prosperity.

He over-promises and under-delivers. On the deficit. On unemployment.

Like all politicians, he lies. He lied about his mother being screwed by insurance companies. Negotiations on CSPAN. Most transparent administration ever. And on and on and on and on.

watch this.

And then there are the scandals. Fast and Furious. The Benghazi attacks. Dead bodies all over.

Look, every politician is a sleazebag to one degree or another. But the killer for me with Obama is not just the bullshit he sputters, the hypocrisies he engages in, or even the lies he tells. There's an enormous amount of all of that.

Rather, it's that his vision of what the United States should be -- a paternalistic, collectivist, government centered, Euro style nation -- is absolutely the wrong way to go. It runs counter to the vision of our founders, and it runs counter to the best course for a free society.

[ManAbout]

(10-14-2012 10:28 AM)tenderman100 Wrote:  

And then there are the scandals. Fast and Furious. The Benghazi attacks. Dead bodies all over.

How many dead bodies did Bush leave behind. 3000+ on 9/11 alone. Benghazi is Obama's fault. But, 9/11 had nothing to do with massive failure of a Republican Administration.

How many hundreds of thousands of dead bodies in Iraq and trillions of dollars wasted? And Afghanistan?

Who killed Osama Bin Laden? Something Bush couldn't do for 7 years. Instead he went after Saddam Hussein claiming to be looking for WMDs. Did you guys find them yet?

Scandals. You are off your rocker if you think the scandals come anything close to what happened under Bush.

You are absolutely filled with blind and irrational hatred for Obama. Your arguments are WEAK.

[tenderman100]

(10-14-2012 10:42 AM)ManAbout Wrote:  

(10-14-2012 10:28 AM)tenderman100 Wrote:  

And then there are the scandals. Fast and Furious. The Benghazi attacks. Dead bodies all over.

How many dead bodies did Bush leave behind. 3000+ on 9/11 alone. Benghazi is Obama's fault. But, 9/11 had nothing to do with massive failure of a Republican Administration.

How many hundreds of thousands of dead bodies in Iraq and trillions of dollars wasted? And Afghanistan?

Who killed Osama Bin Laden? Something Bush couldn't do for 7 years. Instead he went after Saddam Hussein claiming to be looking for WMDs. Did you guys find them yet?

Scandals. You are off your rocker if you think the scandals come anything close to what happened under Bush.

You are absolutely filled with blind and irrational hatred for Obama. Your arguments are WEAK.

You know what IS a weak argument?

That Obama is OK because Bush was worse.

If I were you, I would go read a book on logic.

Two other things.

1. 9-11 was a failure of many -- Clinton, the intelligence community, and Bush. Clinton has his shot to kill Bin Laden, and didn't do it. Gonna blame him? Oh, that's right, he's a Democrat. Never mind.

2. Bush went into Iraq with UN backing, against a vicious Stalinist dictator who gassed his own people, and started two wars of conquest. Was the execution of the war -- or rather the post war -- a clusterfuck? You bet. Bush has been rightly excoriated for what happened. Meanwhile, engaging in the moral equation ($ and lives against the deposing of a vicious dictator and attempt to make a functioning democracy) is probably fruitless. And counterfactuals are typically problematic, but think of this: Hussein (and his two sons, who were even worse) in power, sanctions off, inspections stopped, working their asses off to get a nuclear weapon (and they WERE going to do it, even if they hadn't made progress when we went in), even as Iran was trying to get one too.

So contrast what Bush did with the motives of Obama:

Fast and Furious: let's put guns in the hands of drug cartels, tie them back to unregulated gun shows, so we can have more gun control

Benghazi: let's make the claim it was the video, rather than have people think that what I said about al Qaeda on the run and Bin Laden's killing signalling the end of al Qaeda was bullshit.

So, yeah, I'd go to the library and pick up a book on logic. Don't move your lips when reading it though.

[Kona]

(10-14-2012 04:05 AM)OGNorCal707 Wrote:  

I still can't wrap my head around why right-wingers hate Obama so much...? I also find it ironic that most of these guys probably voted for George W. Bush, and were most likely silent when he was running the country into a ditch. Then Obama takes office and these right-wingers want to crucify Obama for all the problems he inherited from the Bush administration. However, when you confront a right-winger about that, they got nothing to say, that or they spout off whatever diaherea they've heard on Fox News. Or they charge Obama with being a communist or a socialist, but ofcourse can't provide any logical or rational or logical reasoning behind their beliefs, kind of like the old Republican woman who someone posted a clip of page 3 of this thread.

OGNorCal,

You can't figure it out?

The bulk of the people that attack Obama just can't stand the fact that the President of the United State of America is not white like them. Plain and simple.

They try to hide it with a bunch of big worded bullshit like this:

(10-14-2012 04:05 AM)tenderman100 Wrote:  

First of all, I am not a "right winger" -- if you mean by right winger someone who doesn't believe in evolution, find abortion abhorrent, or is a Christian religious nut.

But I do think Obama has zero business being president of the United States. Zero. The reasons -- and quite logical reasons -- are endless.

Here are a few.

While he inherited problems, he made them worse. The stimulus did shit.

He hates business. He hates Wall Street. Though he'll cowtow to the hedge fund bundlers (just one of many hypocrisies this guy indulges in).

He says one thing and does another. I'll close Guantanamo -- doesn't do it. I'll be the great uniter -- instead, becomes the great divider, letting the Stepford Pelosi and Ass't Vice Principal Harry Reid ram through a hugely unpopular bill with no bipartisan support. While running, he calls the Patriot Act a "shoddy and dangerous law" and then turns around and signs its extension.

He utters the most empty and vacous bullshit rhetoric. "This is the moment when the rise of the seas began to slow, and the planet began to heal." (uttered when he beat Hillary is a primary for Christ's sake).

He engages in strawman rhetoric, the rhetoric of false choice. It's the tiresome tactic of every demagogue. So in his 2009 State of the Union he says: I reject the view that says our problems will simply take care of themselves; that says government has no role in laying the foundation for our common prosperity. I wonder, who exactly has that view? Certainly not the vast majority of Republicans, who believe -- rightly or wrongly as one may argue -- that a government that has low taxes, fiscal restraint, reasonable regulation, and prudent monetary policies can -- ahem -- "lay the foundation" for prosperity.

He over-promises and under-delivers. On the deficit. On unemployment.

Like all politicians, he lies. He lied about his mother being screwed by insurance companies. Negotiations on CSPAN. Most transparent administration ever. And on and on and on and on.

watch this.




And then there are the scandals. Fast and Furious. The Benghazi attacks. Dead bodies all over.

Look, every politician is a sleazebag to one degree or another. But the killer for me with Obama is not just the bullshit he sputters, the hypocrisies he engages in, or even the lies he tells. There's an enormous amount of all of that.

Rather, it's that his vision of what the United States should be -- a paternalistic, collectivist, government centered, Euro style nation -- is absolutely the wrong way to go. It runs counter to the vision of our founders, and it runs counter to the best course for a free society.

But then they throw in their little racist crap every now and then like this:

(10-14-2012 04:05 AM)tenderman100 Wrote:  

And that Obama! He's clean and articulate, doncha know.

People like this are racists, but they are way bigger pussies.

Aloha!

[Hotwheels]

Funny, I felt the same way about Clinton (both of them), Kerry, Gore, et al and they are all white.

Believe it or not, most of us can look past a man's skin color. Yes, there are some out there that make race the big issue. Thing is they are on both sides of the aisle, not just one.

Myself, if this country was on the right path I wouldn't care if the guy was green.

Nice race baiting there Kona. :thumbsup:

[ManAbout]

(10-14-2012 03:31 PM)Hotwheels Wrote:  

Funny, I felt the same way about Clinton (both of them), Kerry, Gore, et al and they are all white.

You kept claiming that they were all Indonesian Muslims born in Kenya, constitutionally unqualified to be President, and that they should produce their birth certificates?

[ManAbout]

As for why people are voting for Obama, this is a very real life example of the way he is changing people's lives. No hatred, no bullshit. His policies have had a tremendous positive impact on many many Americans in this exact same situation.

16 year old kid canvasing the streets for Obama because his mother's life depends on it.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/10/14...-for-Obama

Quote:

"Well, the most important reason for me is health care. I'm an only child and my mom's a breast cancer survivor. With Obamacare we can get insurance. And so if Mom gets sick again, she can see a doctor. But did you know that Mitt Romney wants to take it away from us? If he wins, my mom won't be able to get insurance. And if she gets sick, there's nothing she can do."