[Vicious]

As a history buff I kinda roll my eyes every time these "we saved your asses in WW2" discussions turn up.

Europe does have a lot to be thankful for regarding this time perioD. But not so much for the military intervention (which was triggered by Germany declaring war on the US) as The Marshall Plan which truly saved central Europe from communism.

[Caligula]

Counterfactual history is always suspect but if the Nazi leadership had been savvier they would have broken the alliance with Japan after Pearl Harbor and proposed a non-aggression pact to the US. That would have made it very hard for Roosevelt to sell the European intervention domestically.

There was a large, influential German population in the US that supported Germany until they had to shut up when war was declared. The business community was also quite happy to make money off both sides right until Germany declared war on the US (eg. Ford).

[durangotang]

Since World War II was brought up, this is for all the history buffs here:

I am currently reading Hitler's War and the War Path, by David Irving, which is a riveting read. I could not pull myself away last night - and got just a few hours of sleep as a result. Quick synopsis:

"Using information gleaned from German military records and archives, as well as from the unpublished diaries, notes and correspondence of the Reich's top ministers, noted historian David Irving explores the strategies, objectives and execution of Hitler's War from the breathtaking and often surprising perspective of Adolf Hitler himself."

The good thing is that it can be downloaded and read for free from the authors website (in PDF format):

David Irving's website

I recommend David Irving because of his strict adherence to documented original source material, not here-say or quoting other historians, in the writing of his books - which both to his detriment and merit do not fit the politically correct mold. It took him over 13 years of exhaustive research that saw him around the world, before he wrote the first edition of Hitler's War.

Here are some interviews of his on YouTube!

Enjoy.

[Aliblahba]

Ungrateful ass Europeans.

[Tuthmosis]

(09-27-2012 05:09 PM)Aliblahba Wrote:  

Ungrateful ass Europeans.

Really though.

[Screwston]

This thread needs some Rambo.

[Tuthmosis]

Ungrateful European:

   

[NYJ]

(09-27-2012 02:53 PM)Caligula Wrote:  

Counterfactual history is always suspect but if the Nazi leadership had been savvier they would have broken the alliance with Japan after Pearl Harbor and proposed a non-aggression pact to the US. That would have made it very hard for Roosevelt to sell the European intervention domestically.

There was a large, influential German population in the US that supported Germany until they had to shut up when war was declared. The business community was also quite happy to make money off both sides right until Germany declared war on the US (eg. Ford).

The German American Bund held rallies in what is now the town over from me (Wall NJ). The Marshall Plan pretty much saved Western and Central Europe as well as Greece and Turkey from being red.

Another reason why it took so long for the US to get over to Europe was the fact that Nazis controlled the Atlantic.

[Anon-A-Moose]

[Spike]

(09-27-2012 11:52 PM)Anon-A-Moose Wrote:  

Thats a nice picture of Warhorse, here's another one with Sarah Jessica Parker (and some dude)

[attachment=7912]

[The Fantasist]

(09-27-2012 03:27 PM)durangotang Wrote:  

Since World War II was brought up, this is for all the history buffs here:

I am currently reading Hitler's War and the War Path, by David Irving, which is a riveting read. I could not pull myself away last night - and got just a few hours of sleep as a result. Quick synopsis:

"Using information gleaned from German military records and archives, as well as from the unpublished diaries, notes and correspondence of the Reich's top ministers, noted historian David Irving explores the strategies, objectives and execution of Hitler's War from the breathtaking and often surprising perspective of Adolf Hitler himself."

The good thing is that it can be downloaded and read for free from the authors website (in PDF format):

David Irving's website

I recommend David Irving because of his strict adherence to documented original source material, not here-say or quoting other historians, in the writing of his books - which both to his detriment and merit do not fit the politically correct
mold. It took him over 13 years of exhaustive research that saw him around the world, before he wrote the first edition of Hitler's War.

[url=http://www.youtube.com/results?hl=en&safe=off&client=safari&rls=en&q=david+irving&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.
&biw=1237&bih=981&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=w1]Here are some interviews of his on YouTube![/url]

Enjoy.

How can you take him seriously? The guy denies there was a Holocaust. He said the gas chambers at Aushwitz were built after the war. He said firstly that only 30,000 Jews died in Auschwitz and all from natural causes then years later he said 100,000 died there but from epidemics and not in the ovens. He also says Hitler knew nothing of the Holocaust. The guy has a vile agenda.

As for the US helping Europe. Well as a Brit I am thankful to them. Mainland Britain was never under threat after we defeated the Luftwaffe in the Battle of Britain but we could never have freed Europe without the Americans. And it's a little distasteful that some Europeans seem ungrateful for their role in the war. Sure it was a money making scheme in part however that does not detract from the fact that thousands of young American men came to Europe to help fight a war that did not threaten them. They died on French beaches no doubt terrified as they were strafed from all sides. Kids from Iowa,Nebraska,Montana,blown to bits thousands of miles from home and then decades later you get ungrateful Europeans trying to play down their part.

I'd love to meet an American WW2 veteran and shake him by the hand and thank him. And as an Englishman,if the States ever needed help I'd sign up and go fight on their beaches for their freedom.

[Excelsior]

(09-27-2012 03:27 PM)durangotang Wrote:  

I recommend David Irving because of his strict adherence to documented original source material, not here-say or quoting other historians, in the writing of his books - which both to his detriment and merit do not fit the politically correct mold. It took him over 13 years of exhaustive research that saw him around the world, before he wrote the first edition of Hitler's War.

He's a blatant revisionist with zero academic credibility as a historian. He has regularly been found to engage in exaggeration and misrepresentation of historical facts, and can't be called much less than an unrepentant holocaust denier and nazi sympathizer. The dude is also a rabid anti-semite and, to be frank, a rabid, unrepentant racist.

That you would extoll the virtues of such a man is telling. He's full of shit.

[Gaston]

"Welcome back Roosh, this bud's for you!"

[durangotang]

(09-28-2012 12:39 PM)Athlone McGinnis Wrote:  

(09-27-2012 03:27 PM)durangotang Wrote:  

I recommend David Irving because of his strict adherence to documented original source material, not here-say or quoting other historians, in the writing of his books - which both to his detriment and merit do not fit the politically correct mold. It took him over 13 years of exhaustive research that saw him around the world, before he wrote the first edition of Hitler's War.

He's a blatant revisionist with zero academic credibility as a historian. He has regularly been found to engage in exaggeration and misrepresentation of historical facts, and can't be called much less than an unrepentant holocaust denier and nazi sympathizer. The dude is also a rabid anti-semite and, to be frank, a rabid, unrepentant racist.

That you would extoll the virtues of such a man is telling. He's full of shit.

Christopher Hitchen's wrote a piece entitled Hitler's Ghost, for Vanity Fair in 1996, defending Irving as someone who should have the right to be published and read. The only copy of which I can find is here.

I am no scholar nor writer anywhere near the level of Christopher Hitchens, nor am I an academic historian (nor I suspect are you). To quote that article:

-----

More than 120 book sections of English magazines and newspapers have requested copies from Irving’s British publisher, and reviews are pouring in. I might mention Robert Harris, author of Fatherland and Enigma, who wrote in the London Evening Standard on April 1 that “in the words of the military writer John Keegan: ‘No historian of the Second World War can afford to ignore Irving.’ Few contemporary scholars have his depth of knowledge, virtually none has met as many of its leading figures and nobody, surely, has unearthed more original material–a private archive known as the ‘Irving Collection,’ always generously made available to other researchers, which weighs more than half a ton.”

Harris could have added that his own brilliant book Selling Hitler–describing the 1983 forgery of “the Hitler Diaries,” which hoodwinked a large chunk of the British establishment (including historians of the caliber of Hugh Trevor-Roper, author of The Last Days of Hitler)–was made possible in part by Irving’s finding that those nasty papers were indeed a fake. Irving rendered another service by unmasking some spurious documents connecting Churchill and Mussolini. He speaks faultless German. He has, in the most recent case, been the first historian to see some 75,000 pages of diary entries by Joseph Goebbels, held in secrecy in Moscow from 1945 to 1992. His studies of the Churchill-Roosevelt relationship, of the bombing of Dresden, of the campaigns of Rommel and others, are such that you can’t say you know the subject at all unless you have read them. And, incidentally, he has never and not once described the Holocaust as a “hoax.”


-----

In all fairness to your position in regards to David Irving, I think in spirit he is an admirer of Adolf Hitler and I know that he believes in the racial superiority of "Aryans" - which is unfortunate. I also believe that he views (as he calls it capital 't' capital 'h') "The Holocaust" as a money making propaganda machine propagated by the Jewish people to justify the existence of the nation of Israel and to extort money from the German people (and the United States). He openly acknowledges slave labor camps (concentration camps), tolerance of the mass murder of Jews by Nazis, the mass murdering of Jews by Nazis through Nazi official orders (by gunfire into pits), and that constitutionally and ultimately Hitler is responsible for this as Fuehrer. He disputes any claims to an organized extermination of the Jews as ordered by Adolf Hitler, that Hitler did not know of Jewish mass murders before they happened, and that gas chambers were not used to systemically liquidate Jewish prisoners in concentration camps such as Auschwitz. He contends that typhus outbreaks and starvation were responsible for the emaciated photos of dead prisoners in these camps as allies bombed supply lines leading to them. He does acknowledge the existence of some gas chamber trucks used for extermination. He has offered a reward for decades for any documentary proof that Hitler ordered the mass extermination of the Jews.

It is up to you to decide what you think in these matters. I have not made my mind up, and I am certainly taking into perspective the authors personal point of view. I any case, it is a tragedy of the highest order for the Jewish people - no doubt.

I still maintain in light of all this that Hitler's War is an excellent read so far. I'll finish with a quote from Christopher Hitchen's from the aforementioned Vanity Fair article:

"It’s unimportant to me that Irving is my political polar opposite. If I didn’t read my polar opposites, I’d be even stupider than I am."

[Excelsior]

^If you insist on giving the man a look, I can't stop you.

Meanwhile, in America...

[j r]

(09-28-2012 12:39 PM)Athlone McGinnis Wrote:  

(09-27-2012 03:27 PM)durangotang Wrote:  

I recommend David Irving because of his strict adherence to documented original source material, not here-say or quoting other historians, in the writing of his books - which both to his detriment and merit do not fit the politically correct mold. It took him over 13 years of exhaustive research that saw him around the world, before he wrote the first edition of Hitler's War.

He's a blatant revisionist with zero academic credibility as a historian. He has regularly been found to engage in exaggeration and misrepresentation of historical facts, and can't be called much less than an unrepentant holocaust denier and nazi sympathizer. The dude is also a rabid anti-semite and, to be frank, a rabid, unrepentant racist.

Never mind all that. Why is his book $80? Does he come over and read it to you for that price? Is it delivered by a big-titted fraulein who also gives you hand-relief?

[Pacesetter20]

[speakeasy]

[kbell]

Its like gazing at a hippo ass dressed as a human.

[Gaston]

(09-30-2012 10:14 PM)kbell Wrote:  

Its like gazing at a hippo ass dressed as a human.

Nope. A hippo's ass is smaller.

[Roosch]

Wow, how is America these days?

Did you notice a decline?

[Spike]

(10-01-2012 04:38 AM)Roosch Wrote:  

Wow, how is America these days?

Did you notice a decline?

Nice username

[Aliblahba]

(10-01-2012 06:20 AM)Neil Skywalker Wrote:  

(10-01-2012 04:38 AM)Roosch Wrote:  

Wow, how is America these days?

Did you notice a decline?

Nice username

Roosh has a:




   

[Parlay44]

[Hotwheels]

(09-27-2012 03:18 AM)Neil Skywalker Wrote:  

Look, i"m not saying that the Americans did jack shit in the European war. They were indeed helpfull in defeating the Nazi's in the west. That fact is that America was very very reluctant to join the war and basically joined it get their own economy out of the slum by building weapons/ships/planes etc etc. When they found out this was a very good industry and realized they were turning into a superpower they also decided they needed to inter fear with the rest of the world from that moment on. Just look at all the shit they pulled in South/central America and South East Asia. The USA profited from the fact that European nations like the UK,France,Germany,Holland, Belgium lost all their colonial power since their own countries were pounded to ruble. Just look at how many countries went independent after WW2. Dozens. Most countries are worst of nowadays. I can't say Africa has really blossomed to a continent of successful peaceful nations.

Another fact is that the Americans would have never joined the war if Nazi-Germany and its allies weren't already losing the war in the East and needed all there resources there to stop the Red Army (and help the Italians out in Northern Africa since their army couldn't make a dent in a stick of butter) Why do you think D-day was such a success? Purely because Nazi-Germany already lacked the manpower to seriously defend those parts of Europe and it's war industry was already back to 10% of it's capability by relentless bombing by the Brits.

Americans have had the luxury to never have to fight a war in their own country. They never endured the misery,lack of resources,deathcount and destruction Europe had. This has influenced Europe till this day.
I'm thankfull that English speaking allies won in the west of Europe because well, we saw what happened in Eastern Europe after the war.

I always that if they weren't for the Russians we'd be Speaking German in Holland and if it weren't for the western allies we'd be speaking Russian in Holland.

I was going to respond to all the factual errors and exaggerations in this post but decided not as my temper would likely get me banned.

btw-Hitler declared war on the US, not the other way around.