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Intermittent Fasting and Weightlifting
#1

Intermittent Fasting and Weightlifting

I have used IF successfully as a weight loss tool. I'm down to 165 lbs from a high of 195 or so back in winter. I fasted 24 hrs for 1-3 days a week, eating somewhat sensibly on the other days.

I'd like to hit the weights again, and would like to incorporate IF, but without the complicated feeding windows e.g. 8 hours everyday.

From what I remember in Starting Strength (or maybe it was a different book), your body basically uses all the calories and repairs muscle tissue in the 48 hours after you're lifting (hence the M-W-F lifting routine). Taking this into consideration, wouldn't it be smart to add a 24 hour fast on Sundays as this is not within 48 hours after lifting?

Over the course of a month, 24-hour fasts on Sundays would result in 4 days of 2000-2500 calories deficients, resulting in a modest 3lbs of fat loss or so. It seems like it would be a good buffer to counteract marginal fat gain that comes with increased calories.
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#2

Intermittent Fasting and Weightlifting

It's an interesting question and I think there's probably some good reason for 20%/-20% being the standard Leangains/IF method with slightly negative weekly deficit.

Maybe you should first try regular LG/IF pattern and then add in a full 24h fast once a week and see how it affects your performance and how you feel—particularly when you work out on Monday.

What's complicated about the feeding window? It's not a matter of life and death, it's just generally better that your eating pattern is regular. Carb cycling is also essential in LG.
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#3

Intermittent Fasting and Weightlifting

I do both but I'm starting to cut down on the fasting. The reason being is that when I fast it seems to activate a "survival energy". It's not a bad thing but literally a pin dropping in a room will wake me up immediately. Same thing with dancing in clubs, under a state of "survival energy" I can dance for like five or six hours nonstop, then go home and not sleep for eight hours. It's not a comfortable thing to have.
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#4

Intermittent Fasting and Weightlifting

If you fast, you aren’t taking in protein and you will lose muscle mass. I wouldn’t do it. I recently lost 45 pounds in 12 weeks using calorie counting. I ate 800 calories a day. In the morning I drank a protein shake composed of one glass of skin milk, one glass of water, and a scoop of protein powder, and a peach. At night I would eat lean meat like tuna or chicken breasts to get the rest of my protein. I always kept my protein above the recommended minimum, ran on the treadmill and worked out on the boxing bags. My waste size went down 6 inches from 41 to 35 so I know I lost mostly fat.

Rico... Sauve....
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#5

Intermittent Fasting and Weightlifting

i fast from 8pm to 2pm every day.

when i wake up i take 10g bcaa, work out at 6am. then 10g bcaa after workout, 10am and 12:00.

from the leangains site, this is meant to preserve muscle mass by putting the building blocks of protein in your body without ingesting any calories and upsetting the hormonal balance that comes from the fast.

i then eat a normal 2500-3000 calories and 1g/lb body weight of protein during the feeding window.

i break the fast with 24oz of green vegetable juice that i make in the morning, plus with two scoops of vegetable protein powder (and more bcaa).

i eat fish/steak/chicken and veggies for dinner(s) and on days with heavy lifting i'll add in some yams or something.

my weight is staying around the same, 255-260, but even my tailor said to me yesterday "damn john, you're losing a lot of weight! how much have you lost??" and I had to answer him, not much, just rearranging it.

i'm a couple of belt notches in too
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#6

Intermittent Fasting and Weightlifting

Quote: (09-13-2012 12:06 PM)Sherman Wrote:  

If you fast, you aren’t taking in protein and you will lose muscle mass. I wouldn’t do it. I recently lost 45 pounds in 12 weeks using calorie counting. I ate 800 calories a day. In the morning I drank a protein shake composed of one glass of skin milk, one glass of water, and a scoop of protein powder, and a peach. At night I would eat lean meat like tuna or chicken breasts to get the rest of my protein. I always kept my protein above the recommended minimum, ran on the treadmill and worked out on the boxing bags. My waste size went down 6 inches from 41 to 35 so I know I lost mostly fat.

you say this but you don't really know what you're talking about.

there are plenty of studies that show that intermittent fasting has no appreciable negative impact on muscle mass.

i'm losing fat, like many many others have, not by caloric deficit, but through proper timing of nutrients. I eat a full slate of meals, just between certain hours.

and my muscle mass is either staying the same, or getting bigger as my body fat continues to drop while my weight stays about constant.
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#7

Intermittent Fasting and Weightlifting

Quote: (09-13-2012 12:06 PM)Sherman Wrote:  

If you fast, you aren’t taking in protein and you will lose muscle mass. I wouldn’t do it. I recently lost 45 pounds in 12 weeks using calorie counting. I ate 800 calories a day. In the morning I drank a protein shake composed of one glass of skin milk, one glass of water, and a scoop of protein powder, and a peach. At night I would eat lean meat like tuna or chicken breasts to get the rest of my protein. I always kept my protein above the recommended minimum, ran on the treadmill and worked out on the boxing bags. My waste size went down 6 inches from 41 to 35 so I know I lost mostly fat.

6. Myth: Fasting causes muscle loss.
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#8

Intermittent Fasting and Weightlifting

What are your goals, OP?
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#9

Intermittent Fasting and Weightlifting

I must do IF differently than most.

I started going IF on my own 3 or so years ago. Never heard of the guy you all read.

There's no 8 hour complicated feeding window for me.

I eat whatever the fuck I want, in 2-4 meals, for about 2500-3000 calories.

I eat before training. Training while fasted sucks for me.
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#10

Intermittent Fasting and Weightlifting

I'm a big fan of Leangains style IF. I've put on considerable size and strength and lost a bunch of body fat by following his basic strategy. For whatever reason, I'm stronger lifting fasted. It's weird and I don't understand why but I am certain it's true. (I think this is a very personal thing and not true for everyone).

It's worth mentioning that I believe the macro nutrient cycling aspect of LeanGains is equally important as the timing of intake.
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#11

Intermittent Fasting and Weightlifting

Quote: (09-13-2012 03:27 PM)MikeCF Wrote:  

I must do IF differently than most.

I started going IF on my own 3 or so years ago. Never heard of the guy you all read.

There's no 8 hour complicated feeding window for me.

I eat whatever the fuck I want, in 2-4 meals, for about 2500-3000 calories.

I eat before training. Training while fasted sucks for me.

Fasted lifting sucks for like the first week or two until your body gets used to it.

Also, that 10g BCAA before a fasted lift is key and helps a lot energy level wise. A true fasted lift sucks donkey balls-I've tried it, both times when I was out of BCAAs.

On that note, I don't think I've ever seen anyone recommend true fasted lifting.
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#12

Intermittent Fasting and Weightlifting

Quote: (09-13-2012 12:29 PM)reaper23 Wrote:  

Quote: (09-13-2012 12:06 PM)Sherman Wrote:  

If you fast, you aren’t taking in protein and you will lose muscle mass. I wouldn’t do it. I recently lost 45 pounds in 12 weeks using calorie counting. I ate 800 calories a day. In the morning I drank a protein shake composed of one glass of skin milk, one glass of water, and a scoop of protein powder, and a peach. At night I would eat lean meat like tuna or chicken breasts to get the rest of my protein. I always kept my protein above the recommended minimum, ran on the treadmill and worked out on the boxing bags. My waste size went down 6 inches from 41 to 35 so I know I lost mostly fat.

you say this but you don't really know what you're talking about.

there are plenty of studies that show that intermittent fasting has no appreciable negative impact on muscle mass.

i'm losing fat, like many many others have, not by caloric deficit, but through proper timing of nutrients. I eat a full slate of meals, just between certain hours.

and my muscle mass is either staying the same, or getting bigger as my body fat continues to drop while my weight stays about constant.

im sorry to correct you....but if you are losing fat,you ARE in a state of negative energy balance,either you burn more calories from excercise or your eating less.

Nutrient timing is a myth and is down to bullshit marketing.It all comes down to individual macronutrients taken over the course of 24-even 48 hours. IF is just a guideline schedule for eating. Sure people have benefitted from it,but was it optimal? these people easily could have been in a caloric deficit from eating 10 meals a day and lost the exact same amount of fat (which is true) vs fasting for those hours.

Nutrient timing IS bullshit people.I used to believe it myself but its all broscience
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#13

Intermittent Fasting and Weightlifting

Quote: (09-13-2012 04:19 PM)flyfreshandyoung Wrote:  

Quote: (09-13-2012 03:27 PM)MikeCF Wrote:  

I must do IF differently than most.

I started going IF on my own 3 or so years ago. Never heard of the guy you all read.

There's no 8 hour complicated feeding window for me.

I eat whatever the fuck I want, in 2-4 meals, for about 2500-3000 calories.

I eat before training. Training while fasted sucks for me.

Fasted lifting sucks for like the first week or two until your body gets used to it.

Also, that 10g BCAA before a fasted lift is key and helps a lot energy level wise. A true fasted lift sucks donkey balls-I've tried it, both times when I was out of BCAAs.

On that note, I don't think I've ever seen anyone recommend true fasted lifting.

Forgot to say this. Strongly agreed on the BCAAs pre-lift.
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#14

Intermittent Fasting and Weightlifting

Quote: (09-13-2012 04:30 PM)alecks Wrote:  

Nutrient timing IS bullshit people.I used to believe it myself but its all broscience

Spend some time on this site:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/

You'll find dozens of studies like these:

An abundant supply of amino acids enhances the metabolic effect of exercise on muscle protein.‎

Timing of postexercise protein intake is important for muscle hypertrophy with resistance training in elderly humans.

Independent and combined effects of amino acids and glucose after resistance exercise.‎

Effect of parenteral glutamine peptide supplements on muscle glutamine loss and nitrogen balance after major surgery.‎

Postexercise protein intake enhances wholebody and leg protein accretion in humans.‎

Effect of glucose supplement timing on protein metabolism after resistance training.‎

Differential anabolic effects of testosterone and amino acid feeding in older men.‎
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#15

Intermittent Fasting and Weightlifting

*crickets*
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#16

Intermittent Fasting and Weightlifting

Quote: (09-13-2012 04:55 PM)MikeCF Wrote:  

Quote: (09-13-2012 04:30 PM)alecks Wrote:  

Nutrient timing IS bullshit people.I used to believe it myself but its all broscience

Spend some time on this site:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/

You'll find dozens of studies like these:

An abundant supply of amino acids enhances the metabolic effect of exercise on muscle protein.‎

Timing of postexercise protein intake is important for muscle hypertrophy with resistance training in elderly humans.

Independent and combined effects of amino acids and glucose after resistance exercise.‎

Effect of parenteral glutamine peptide supplements on muscle glutamine loss and nitrogen balance after major surgery.‎

Postexercise protein intake enhances wholebody and leg protein accretion in humans.‎

Effect of glucose supplement timing on protein metabolism after resistance training.‎

Differential anabolic effects of testosterone and amino acid feeding in older men.‎

Thanks to Alan Aragon!Hierarchy of Importance

When speaking of nutrition for improving body composition or training performance, it's crucial to realize there's an underlying hierarchy of importance. At the top of the hierarchy is total amount of the macronutrients by the end of the day. Distantly below that is the precise timing of those nutrients. With very few exceptions, athletes and active individuals eat multiple times per day. Thus, the majority of their day is spent in the postprandial (fed) rather than a post-absorptive (fasted) state. The vast majority of nutrient timing studies have been done on overnight-fasted subjects put through glycogen depletion protocols, which obviously limits the applicability of the outcomes. Pre-exercise (and/or during-exercise) nutrient intake often has a lingering carry-over effect into the post-exercise period. Throughout the day, there's a constant overlap of meal digestion & nutrient absorption. For this reason, the effectiveness of nutrient timing does not require a high degree of precision.

The Primary Laws of Nutrient Timing
The First Law of Nutrient Timing is: hitting your daily macronutrient targets is FAR more important than nutrient timing.
The Second Law of Nutrient Timing is: hitting your daily macronutrient targets is FAR more important than nutrient timing.
NOTE: Please do not misinterpret the above to mean that timing is irrelevant. On the contrary, it's very relevant. Timing just happens to have MUCH LESS impact on results than hitting your macro totals for the day. This doesn't diminish the fact that people need to individualize their meal timing so that it maximizes their training performance (& does not hinder it). The latter manipulations vary widely, because people have different training protocols, goals, and tolerances. For example, some people experience their best training performance in an immediately fed state, while others do best in a semi-fasted or fasted state. Endurance athletes who neglect carbohydrate timing will not optimize their training capacity. Strength/power athletes with minimal endurance demands have much less of a concern for this. There's no way to 'universalize' a nutrient timing prescription that applies to everyone & all types of athletes. But to reiterate, macro totals for the day overshadow timing in terms of importance, especially for bodybuilding. If macro totals for the day are not hit, the most precisely neurotic timing of meals is all for sh!t.
I also suggest you read:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19943985This study shows there was no difference in weight loss between subjects with high/low meal frequencies.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9155494Evidence supports that meal frequency has nothing to do with energy in the subjects.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11319656Yet again, no difference in energy in the subjects compared to 2 meals/d to 6 meals/d.


And if you want to do some more detailed digging, you can read:



http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1905998Eur J Clin Nutr. 1991 Mar;45(3):161-9.LinksInfluence of the feeding frequency on nutrient utilization in man: consequences for energy metabolism.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11319656Int J Obes Relat Metab Disord. 2001 Apr;25(4):519-28.LinksCompared with nibbling, neither gorging nor a morning fast affect short-term energy balance in obese patients in a chamber calorimeter.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18053311Br J Nutr. 2008 Jun;99(6):1316-21. Epub 2007 Dec 6. LinksAcute effects on metabolism and appetite profile of one meal difference in the lower range of meal frequency.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1905998Eur J Clin Nutr. 1991 Mar;45(3):161-9.LinksInfluence of the feeding frequency on nutrient utilization in man: consequences for energy metabolism.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11319656Int J Obes Relat Metab Disord. 2001 Apr;25(4):519-28.LinksCompared with nibbling, neither gorging nor a morning fast affect short-term energy balance in obese patients in a chamber calorimeterhttp://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18053311Br J Nutr. 2008 Jun;99(6):1316-21. Epub 2007 Dec 6. LinksAcute effects on metabolism and appetite profile of one meal difference in the lower range of meal frequency.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9155494Br J Nutr. 1997 Apr;77 Suppl 1:S57-70. LinksMeal frequency and energy balance.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15806828Forum Nutr. 2003;56:126-8.LinksHighlighting the positive impact of increasing feeding frequency on metabolism and weight management.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9504318Int J Obes Relat Metab Disord. 1998 Feb;22(2):105-12.LinksEvidence that eating frequency is inversely related to body weight status in male, but not female, non-obese adults reporting valid dietary intakes.http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15085170Int J Obes Relat Metab Disord. 2004 May;28(5):653-60. LinksDecreased thermic effect of food after an irregular compared with a regular meal pattern in healthy lean women.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15220950Eur J Clin Nutr. 2004 Jul;58(7):1071-7. LinksRegular meal frequency creates more appropriate insulin sensitivity and lipid profiles compared with irregular meal frequency in healthy lean women.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17228037Obesity (Silver Spring). 2007 Jan;15(1):100-6. LinksAssociation of eating frequency with body fatness in pre- and postmenopausal women.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15640455Am J Clin Nutr. 2005 Jan;81(1):16-24. LinksComment in:Am J Clin Nutr. 2005 Jan;81(1):3-4.Beneficial metabolic effects of regular meal frequency on dietary thermogenesis, insulin sensitivity, and fasting lipid profiles in healthy obese women


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10578205Int J Obes Relat Metab Disord. 1999 Nov;23(11):1151-9.LinksAcute appetite reduction associated with an increased frequency of eating in obese males.


he postexercise "anabolic window" is a highly misused & abused concept. Preworkout nutrition all but cancels the urgency, unless you're an endurance athlete with multiple glycogen-depleting events in a single day. Getting down to brass tacks, a relatively recent study (Power et al. 2009) showed that a 45g dose of whey protein isolate takes appx 50 minutes to cause blood AA levels to peak. Resulting insulin levels, which peaked at 40 minutes after ingestion, remained at elevations known to max out the inhibition of muscle protein breakdown (15-30 mU/L) for 120 minutes after ingestion. This dose takes 3 hours for insulin & AA levels to return to baseline from the point of ingestion. The inclusion of carbs to this dose would cause AA & insulin levels to peak higher & stay elevated above baseline even longer.

So much for the anabolic peephole & the urgency to down AAs during your weight training workout; they are already seeping into circulation (& will continue to do so after your training bout is done). Even in the event that a preworkout meal is skipped, the anabolic effect of the postworkout meal is increased as a supercompensatory response (Deldicque et al, 2010). Moving on, another recent study (Staples et al, 2010) found that a substantial dose of carbohydrate (50g maltodextrin) added to 25g whey protein was unable to further increase postexercise net muscle protein balance compared to the protein dose without carbs. Again, this is not to say that adding carbs at this point is counterproductive, but it certainly doesn't support the idea that you must get your lightning-fast postexercise carb orgy for optimal results.

To add to this... Why has the majority of longer-term research failed to show any meaningful differences in nutrient timing relative to the resistance training bout? It's likely because the body is smarter than we give it credit for. Most people don't know that as a result of a single training bout, the receptivity of muscle to protein dosing can persist for at least 24 hours: Enhanced amino acid sensitivity of myofibrillar prote... [J Nutr. 2011] - PubMed - NCBI

More from earlier in the thread:

Here's what you're not seeming to grasp: the "windows" for taking advantage of nutrient timing are not little peepholes. They're more like bay windows of a mansion. You're ignoring just how long the anabolic effects are of a typical mixed meal. Depending on the size of a meal, it takes a good 1-2 hours for circulating substrate levels to peak, and it takes a good 3-6 hours (or more) for everythng to drop back down to baseline.

You're also ignoring the fact that the anabolic effects of a meal are maxed out at much lower levels than typical meals drive insulin & amino acids up to. Furthermore, you're also ignoring the body's ability of anabolic (& fat-oxidative) supercompensation when forced to work in the absence of fuels. So, metaphorically speaking, our physiology basically has the universe mapped out and you're thinking it needs to be taught addition & subtraction
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#17

Intermittent Fasting and Weightlifting

sorry for such a long post there mike^^.its all supplement company marketing bullshit.

you MUST have 50 grams 1000x billion anabolic hydroisolate 50x amino whey and the fastest bioengineered waxy maize immediately after you finish your last set or else youl become catabolic and lose gains!!.its sad really.

but why cant i have this "meal^^" at another time of day? nearly everything ive done in the past regarding nutrition/bbing has contradicted itself.il explain more later
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#18

Intermittent Fasting and Weightlifting

Quote: (09-14-2012 06:29 PM)alecks Wrote:  

When speaking of nutrition for improving body composition or training performance, it's crucial to realize there's an underlying hierarchy of importance. At the top of the hierarchy is total amount of the macronutrients by the end of the day. Distantly below that is the precise timing of those nutrients.

You said, I quote, "Nutrient timing is bullshit."

The very article you site indicates that nutrient timing is not bullshit.

The article says that nutrient timing is "distantly" less important than how much you eat overall.

Most guys are going to agree.

Who here has said that if you undereat but then throw some BCAAs into a shake that you'll gain muscle?

That article, incidentally, was written in direct response to a T-Nation article claiming that if you just take $300 worth of Biotest products in the peri-workout window, it doesn't matter what you eat the rest of the day.

But no one here has made such claims.

If you think nutrient timing doesn't matter, do this little experiment:
1. Squat.
2. Don't eat for 2 hours.

Then:
1. Drink some BCAAs and some beet juice.
1. Squat.
2. Eat or drink a fuck load of protein after your last set.


Then see how much different you feel.
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#19

Intermittent Fasting and Weightlifting

I see how i went wrong saying that nutrient timing is bullshit.What I should have said is that it is way less important.I have done the shakes,the waxy maize,the 3 hours eating regimen,I saw no difference in size/strenght gains then what ive been doing now (eating when im hungry,getting my daily macros in).

ive tried bcaas,yes they do decrease doms slightly the next day but have i noticed increased muscle gain from them? not really.for the price they are not worth it.The only supplements i use are whey and creatine.

as for the beets,yes they increase NO,vasodilation but it takes a long time,over 24 hours to have an effect on me.

im well used to squatting (315 x 10) (225 x 20),not a huge weight but enough to build big legs and YES ive gone hours upon hours without eating (due to a work schedule) after working out and felt no difference,if i got my daily macros in my recovery was still the same.Does that mean that what i did was optimal for muscle growth and strenght? NO,but i can tell you that doing what im doing now has made no difference than what i used to do.

mike what is your current regime for nutrition? are you a "i need protein every two hours meathead" like i used to be?
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