[Andy_B]

It seems it's not very popular with the more right wing elements in Europe, but what about the population at large?

I don't really know much about it, and I haven't studied it in any detail, but it seems to me that it has a little too much power and almost no accountability.

Like don't countries just send off delegates to the EU through their parliaments, without ever running them in elections.

That and they seem really keen on enforcing all the politically correct crap that's clearly becoming too much for Europe to bear these days....

[Caligula]

It's a big subject with lots of nuance to it. Easy to get bogged down in a debate. Anyone that says that the EU is wholly bad or wholly good is full of shit.

I'll just leave these here:

[Icarus]

(08-31-2012 01:48 AM)Andy_B Wrote:  

It seems it's not very popular with the more right wing elements in Europe, but what about the population at large?

The EU means loss of sovereignty. Given that Europe has too much history and too many ethnic tensions, I doubt it will last another 60 years. In its present form, at least! It will adapt or die.

Do you think that Italians want to be ruled by the Germans? Or Belgians by the French? The farther the decision-making is from the populace, the less legitimate it will seem. And Brussels is really, really far. Not geographically, but culturally.

The one "European union" that makes a lot of sense is a military one. NATO was created to defend Europe against the USSR, and the USSR collapsed 20 years ago. Europe must still be protected against external threats. I expect a European NATO-like organization (without the U.S. and Canada) to emerge in the next decades.

[michelin]

the EU is a nice idea, but got fucked up from the start by corrupt politicians. Their salaries have skyrocketed, and were even increased during the crisis. Did they ever get criticised by normal people? No, because people don't care.

Somehow people in all member states are too ignorant of the whole situation and look only at what happens around them (in their own country).

Pathetic.

[Handsome Creepy Eel]

I like both the idea and the implementation of EU. It has brought a lot of prosperity, a long period of peace, and a calming of national tensions that devastated the continent. This makes me an outlier in my country, where only a bit less than half of the population supports entering the union.

I will readily acknowledge that many of the current economic problems can be traced back to idiotic decisions by de-facto EU leaders (the famous "Merkozy"-imposed austerity) and problems inherent in the Eurozone, and these sadden me greatly. However, UK has also gone down the similar path of idiotic and self-destructive economic policy, so it can't be said that it is a problem caused by EU.

I think that in order to EU become a negative and "not worth it", problems with EU would have to be orders of magnitude larger than any of those that skeptics complain about now.

[Kitsune]

I think euro-skepticism is a lot larger than people realise.

The EU as a set of trade agreements is fair enough, and would happen anyway.
One shared currency is a ridiculous idea, as is having an unelected political centre.

It will collapse during our lifetimes. There are minorities in pretty much every country who want it gonne already, and as the world economy shrinks that minority will only grow.

[Vicious]

Ask an American what he thinks of the Federal government as opposed the state - chances are you will get a very similar answer as the one in this thread title.

[Handsome Creepy Eel]

See, that's what really pains me (as a supporter) Kitsune. As you say, it's natural that nationalism rises during economic depressions, and that is the antithesis of such an union existing. By making such stupid decisions that worsen the economy, the leadership of EU is condemning it to death.

[Caligula]

The EU leadership condemned a project that is in many ways admirable by grasping for more power than European peoples were ready to give up. They alienated the public by repeatedly riding roughshod over their sovereign decisions, eg. when French and Dutch voters said no to the Lisbon Treaty.

The EU will be increasingly two-tier; a few states will continue down the road to ever tighter integration whether their people like it or not. More and more integration between Euro countries is seen as the only hope if the common currency is to be salvaged.

Meanwhile, states on the periphery will integrate ever more slowly and perhaps claw back powers from Brussels. Much of the good the EU has done in terms of harmonising business regulation, easing trade across borders, negotiating globally as a single trade bloc can be continued without any more power going to Brussels.

The real danger is that people throw the baby out with the bathwater and get rid of EVERYTHING the EU has done. That's the kind of backlash EU bureaucrats are setting themselves up for if they don't start taking peoples' complaints about the lack of accountability and their loss of sovereignty seriously.

[Aliblahba]

I'm totally against the EU, and want to see it fall apart. Harmony sucks, and keeps countries like Germany from starting world wars. Then the U.S. can't come over and save England's ass when the Germans start kicking the shit out of them. And France too.

[Caligula]

(08-31-2012 08:31 AM)Aliblahba Wrote:  

I'm totally against the EU, and want to see it fall apart. Harmony sucks, and keeps countries like Germany from starting world wars. Then the U.S. can't come over and save England's ass when the Germans start kicking the shit out of them. And France too.

The European Union was a project pushed by the US hoping that they would not have to subsidise European defence expenditure forever!

However, the Balkan wars shattered the illusion that the EU could get its shit together even with instability and ethnic cleansing happening on its own doorstep and the US footed the bill once again.

[Basil Ransom]

'Without warfare, global conquest, and mass-extermination, it is likely that the cosmopolitan belief in world peace and universal brotherhood would have remained a poky little European affliction.' #

Nigel Farage is one of my favorite living statesmen. Eloquent, forceful and right, all while being a testicle short.

[Hawk]

My opinion as a South-Western European:
The EU has developed into a non-democratic institution and a paradise for all kind of corporate lobbies. The ECB is simply a lobby of the banks.
The euro has enriched Northern countries and impoverished Southern countries. If Germany had kept the mark, it would have appreciated a lot and it would have had a bad time for its exports. If Spain or Italy had kept the peseta or the lira, they'd have devaluated it and their economy would be better. Also, the real estate bubble which has destroyed Spain was possible thanks to the low interest rates favoured by the ECB; the Spanish government always wanted them higher, but we had commanded our economic sovereignty to Europe and we were unable to do anything about it. Moreover, inflation is exported from Northern to Southern countries; prices have skyrocketed since 2001 in the latter.
The EU has been bad for the European working classes, but it has had endless advantages for its elites; because of it, I don't think it'll finish. I can only find two advantages to it: first, I have a passport which allows me to get the hell out of my country, and open a bank account in Germany to protect my savings; and second, I can aspire to an overpaid job as a bureaucrat in Brussels.

[void]

(08-31-2012 04:08 PM)Hawk Wrote:  

My opinion as a South-Western European:
The EU has developed into a non-democratic institution and a paradise for all kind of corporate lobbies. The ECB is simply a lobby of the banks.
The euro has enriched Northern countries and impoverished Southern countries. If Germany had kept the mark, it would have appreciated a lot and it would have had a bad time for its exports. If Spain or Italy had kept the peseta or the lira, they'd have devaluated it and their economy would be better. Also, the real estate bubble which has destroyed Spain was possible thanks to the low interest rates favoured by the ECB; the Spanish government always wanted them higher, but we had commanded our economic sovereignty to Europe and we were unable to do anything about it. Moreover, inflation is exported from Northern to Southern countries; prices have skyrocketed since 2001 in the latter.
The EU has been bad for the European working classes, but it has had endless advantages for its elites; because of it, I don't think it'll finish. I can only find two advantages to it: first, I have a passport which allows me to get the hell out of my country, and open a bank account in Germany to protect my savings; and second, I can aspire to an overpaid job as a bureaucrat in Brussels.

as a german is second your post. the Euro is designed to fail, because there is so much economical difference in the EU.
the current dominance of germany was earned with a rapid growing low wage sector and almost zero net-income increase over the last 10-15 years. shareholder value and xx% profit growth have taken over the country. the average dude has less now.
i guess we will see a hard reboot in our life times if those "experts" fuck up even more. i hope its just a currency reform.

About becoming a bureaucrat in brussels: do it, everyone exploits the shit out of these structures

[void]

watch the news today, a big nail might be hammered into the coffin of the EURO.

[Deluge]

(08-31-2012 01:48 AM)Andy_B Wrote:  

Like don't countries just send off delegates to the EU through their parliaments, without ever running them in elections.

I checked, that isn't true. They have their own seperate elections every five years, but turn out isn't very high in some states.

[Smitty]

(08-31-2012 08:31 AM)Aliblahba Wrote:  

I'm totally against the EU, and want to see it fall apart. Harmony sucks, and keeps countries like Germany from starting world wars. Then the U.S. can't come over and save England's ass when the Germans start kicking the shit out of them. And France too.

And on today's menu in the cafeteria: Freedom Fries!

(Americans are a unique breed)

[Chase]

we keep on pouring money in a bottomless hole. the scumbags in finance are to blame. that pisses me off. the german weather sucks for nine months a year, so they have fewer reasons to be lazy. but we can only pour in money for so long...

[BIGINJAPAN]

(09-12-2012 06:52 AM)P Dog Wrote:  

(08-31-2012 01:48 AM)Andy_B Wrote:  

Like don't countries just send off delegates to the EU through their parliaments, without ever running them in elections.

I checked, that isn't true. They have their own seperate elections every five years, but turn out isn't very high in some states.

It is true and it isn't. The MEP are elected. But the people in charge are unelected. There are several presidents and some have been sitting in power since inception without election. The guy everyone thinks is the " president of the EU " Herman Van Rompuy is appointed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/President_...an_Council

[Aliblahba]

A wise individual told me last year he foresees Germany pulling out of the EU. Thought's on this?

[BIGINJAPAN]

The EURO is a disaster and will never work. You can't have 17 members who have different values, morals and religions and think they can all work together. Even 2 countries will eventually tire of each other. Currently the EURO only benefits the Germans. If it wasn't for the EURO, Germany would not be an export powerhouse. If they still had the DM it would probably be worth about 4 USD.

Any prosperity achieved by the EURO has already been wiped out in the peripheral countries and they will continue to sink and bring down the advanced countries.

[Kitsune]

(09-13-2012 10:51 AM)Aliblahba Wrote:  

A wise individual told me last year he foresees Germany pulling out of the EU. Thought's on this?

Not very likely. Germany will see it through until the Euro collapses.

[shameus_o'reaaly]

I heard someone on the radio ranting about how there should be 2-tier membership.
The Euro should be for the more robust and growth tier-1 economies, and Spain, Ireland, Portugal Italy and Greece should have no place in it-they devalue the currency for the stronger and more stable countries, but they can benefit from legislative inclusion etc, so that is for the tier-2 countries.

It sounded convincing, but I wasn't sure. I couldn't help thinking it should be all or nothing-if a country is suffering in economic or other international terms, fine, help can be given where possible and realistic, but can Greece really claim parity with Germany when they have to ask for bank bailouts every few months? Greece doesn't belong in the Euro, and a return to the Drachma might have a beneficial effect, since it will be overvalued in Greece but fetch a low rate of exchange, and this might attract foreign investment again.

I couldn't really work it out though, do either of these ideas make sense?

[Icarus]

(09-13-2012 12:11 PM)shameus_oreaaly Wrote:  

Greece doesn't belong in the Euro, and a return to the Drachma might have a beneficial effect, since it will be overvalued in Greece but fetch a low rate of exchange, and this might attract foreign investment again.

Greece could return to their old currency. In the first few days of the new drachma, it would lose value relative to the euro. Unfortunately, Greece's imports are in euros, so everything would become tremendously expensive in the short term, and a country cannot run without food and fuel for very long.

Countries like Brazil, which is independent in terms of food and energy, can play the currency devaluation game. Countries like Greece and Portugal cannot. The latter are sitting ducks. The only way out is to let the social welfare and health systems collapse and let the poor, old and sick die off until they no longer are a burden on the budget. If there are no people, it's much, much easier to reboot a country.

[Teedub]

I've donated to UKIP in the past and am thrilled with their recent victory, and this takedown of two moronic female leftists is amazing. Melanie Philips is one of the few female writers who I admire and whose work I really enjoy reading. I just wish Farage was there too, but I doubt he could have done much better than this. You'll have to have some knowledge of UK politics to understand what she's going on about though in regards to David Cameron.

Sorry for the poor video quality: