[Tbone]

(11-23-2012 12:20 AM)germanico Wrote:  

(11-22-2012 07:03 AM)w00t Wrote:  

I also got a regular office job writing SEO articles, they pay me 40€ for 3 articles.

I want to get into copywriting this seems to be where the real money is.

Any books or resources you could recommend for learning about SEO and writing specifically for SEO?

Here are two resources I can recommend:

http://www.seobook.com/

http://searchengineland.com/

They keep up with the latest happenings in SEO (and other topics related to internet marketing).

[BrownBear]

I just started freelancing, because I owed someone a huge amount of money and I have to find a few more thousand. Is 15$ per hour good for a person who just started freelance writing?

[Tbone]

(11-23-2012 08:57 AM)BrownBear Wrote:  

I just started freelancing, because I owed someone a huge amount of money and I have to find a few more thousand. Is 15$ per hour good for a person who just started freelance writing?

Depends on how good of a writer you are. If you're a competent web writer you can potentially earn more. But I know of a couple of freelancers making a killing who took $15 per hour jobs in the beginning.

[BrownBear]

I'm starting on Elance. Where did they start and where do they work now? I write well enough...

[Tbone]

One started on Elance. Another used ProBlogger, Craigslist, and two or three other job boards that I can't remember the name of.
PeoplePerHour is another place to look at.

[w00t]

(11-23-2012 12:20 AM)germanico Wrote:  

(11-22-2012 07:03 AM)w00t Wrote:  

I also got a regular office job writing SEO articles, they pay me 40€ for 3 articles.

I want to get into copywriting this seems to be where the real money is.

Any books or resources you could recommend for learning about SEO and writing specifically for SEO?

I had some experience from creating content for my own website but apart from that I just learn as I go along.
Writing SEO articles is monkey work IMO, if you can string along some sentences youre good to go.

[Beyond Borders]

(11-23-2012 10:53 AM)w00t Wrote:  

Writing SEO articles is monkey work IMO, if you can string along some sentences youre good to go.

SEO writing is only monkey work when you work for monkeys.

[Neo]

It took a few months, but I've read many books listed in this thread, and also others I found on my own.

The Ultimate Sales Letter, Andy's blog, and the http://www.newsu.org website I just checked out, it seems pretty good.

So now I'm at the stage where I have educated myself over months and have a basic knowledge of copywriting. So my question is to those guys who started, what did you guys do to write your first samples? I think it will be difficult to find clients without a copywriting portfolio. However, I also don't feel comfortable taking on copywriting jobs as of yet, because I really have no idea how effective my copy would be and I'm all about results(for myself and the clients).

Mr McGillycuddy, did you follow through with becoming a copywriter?

[Beyond Borders]

(11-24-2012 06:56 PM)Neo Wrote:  

It took a few months, but I've read many books listed in this thread, and also others I found on my own.

The Ultimate Sales Letter, Andy's blog, and the http://www.newsu.org website I just checked out, it seems pretty good.

So now I'm at the stage where I have educated myself over months and have a basic knowledge of copywriting. So my question is to those guys who started, what did you guys do to write your first samples? I think it will be difficult to find clients without a copywriting portfolio. However, I also don't feel comfortable taking on copywriting jobs as of yet, because I really have no idea how effective my copy would be and I'm all about results(for myself and the clients).

Mr McGillycuddy, did you follow through with becoming a copywriter?

Not to harp on you, Neo, and I'm glad you're taking action, but you read through all of those books and didn't figure out what to do about samples? You must have at least gotten some tips in this department.

Any time I'm going through books like this to completely educate myself about a new business strategy, or in this case, new business industry, I take copious notes. In fact, I usually create an outline of everything in those notes that doesn't strike me as "common sense" and then write that outline in to a short, well-formatted guidebook for my personal use.

They say the best way to learn anything is to write a book about it, so there it is.

Here's another tip: You can further leverage that outline by breaking it into blog posts or fleshing it out as an ebook later on after you've had some success (if you want to get into IM, etc). Just be sure not to plagiarise or anything like that.

Anyhow, go back and take notes. Can't stress it enough.

Since I don't just want to rag on you without giving a direct answer, here are some quick ways to get samples:

- Offer some pro bono work for a local biz or, especially, a nonprofit.

- Write a few pieces for fake companies.

- Find a site that needs improvement and rewrite their website content or write them a blog article, and you may even be able to turn around and use it to close a sale with them. If not, put it in your portfolio.

- Start your own blog or two and contribute to it regularly. Link to this as an example. You can also use this to expiriment and practice online marketing skills that you can upsell clients later. If clients see you can blog on a well-defined topic regularly and draw traffic, they'll be very impressed.

- Submit a few guest posts for authority blogs. If you get these accepted, they will make AWESOME examples. (In fact, I've never done this and think it's about time I did!) Even if they don't get accepted, put them in your portfolio.

- Do a quick job at cheap rates - but overdeliver! Ask for testimonials and keep the articles in your clips. Don't do this too many times or you may find yourself falling into the cheap writer rut.

All of the above should give you some good samples, if you take it seriously enough, and spare you the discomfort and pressure of dealing with a client too soon if you're not ready.

[Beyond Borders]

Just wanted to make a quick post for the aspiring online writers out there in case you're still in doubt about the possible rates.

I just released a set of bids on elance for the first time in a looooooooooong time this last week (haven't been actively marketing in a while). A couple bites and then one who has been emailing sent a new message today asking me if I could lower my bid. They offered me $50 per hour instead.

Now, I don't usually take hourly jobs, and I'm really trying to shoot for $100+ per hour these days on all new jobs, but I told them I'd go for it as I'm trying to up my income an additional $1200 per month of steady income flow by mid-Dec. I want to return to Asia without financial worries.

I'm eager to fill my schedule and meet my goal - most of all, I'm eager to get the fuck out of here for a while - so I jumped on it.

I won't lie that it feels like I'm settling a little bit, but then I thought, "f'ing hell I'm beating myself up about 50 bucks an hour here - completely location independent." It's not 100% ideal, but I certainly can't complain either, especially considering the currency differences I'll leverage across the pond. And it's not like it'll be taking up my whole schedule, by any means; I can still land other clients.

Just wanted to report that they're definitely still biting on these sites. The same ones where most people say decent rates are absolutely impossible.... People say they're low-end clients there, and they are for the most part, but there's some money there too. Always a few gold nugs. I find it a fast, easy source of clients since I'm already established, so it's usually my go-to before getting started on sending out unsolicited pitches.

Once again, it's all in the marketing. And of course experience is big too, but you have to start some time.

Cheers

[Neo]

BB,

Thanks for the response. Writing pieces for a fake company was the angle I was going to go for. I definitely picked up some ideas, my question was mainly how to test whether the copy I write as a beginner is effective in the real world?

One way would be a personal product launch, and I may be able to go that route. I'll look into doing pro bono work for a nonprofit, and the other options.

When I started freelance writing online last summer, I just picked a few topics I liked and wrote articles around them. When I send them out as samples, I get messages back saying that they are very good. With copy it's all about the $$$ conversion.

Anyway thanks to everyone so far who has commented and laid out tips and advice in this thread. I'm going to keep hacking away at this, and hopefully in the next year or two be able to write a success story thread on the forum(in a foreign country full of thin women)

[Beyond Borders]

(11-25-2012 09:35 AM)Neo Wrote:  

BB,

Thanks for the response. Writing pieces for a fake company was the angle I was going to go for. I definitely picked up some ideas, my question was mainly how to test whether the copy I write as a beginner is effective in the real world?

One way would be a personal product launch, and I may be able to go that route. I'll look into doing pro bono work for a nonprofit, and the other options.

When I started freelance writing online last summer, I just picked a few topics I liked and wrote articles around them. When I send them out as samples, I get messages back saying that they are very good. With copy it's all about the $$$ conversion.

Anyway thanks to everyone so far who has commented and laid out tips and advice in this thread. I'm going to keep hacking away at this, and hopefully in the next year or two be able to write a success story thread on the forum(in a foreign country full of thin women)

For sales copy?

- The Warrior Forum is a good place to pick up a couple cheap jobs where you can test yourself out. For one, start a WSO and write a sales page for your writing service. Offer a few pages for cheap, letting people know you are inexperienced.

- Write a fake sales page for a product you like.

- Write a sales page for a niche you want to market in - for IM - and start building a list. If you can build a big list, your copy is working.

- Write a sales page for an affiliate product. This obviously works best for products where you can skip their sales page, otherwise it just makes for a funky sales funnel.

- If you have some confidence in your sales copy writing skills, contact people who have a shitty page and offer to rewrite their sales page or headlines. Tell them they only have to pay if it ups their conversions. IMPORTANT: Make sure they're actually getting some traffic and make a few sales before you do this or it's just a waste of your time. That said, you can put the example in your clips either way, so it's up to you.

[Beyond Borders]

(11-25-2012 04:12 PM)Beyond Borders Wrote:  

IMPORTANT: Make sure they're actually getting some traffic and make a few sales before you do this or it's just a waste of your time. That said, you can put the example in your clips either way, so it's up to you.

Just in case I was confusing, I meant to say "make sure they're actually getting some traffic and making sales before you do this..."

Obviously, you'll only know if your writing is working if there's something there to improve.

[Mr McGillycuddy]

(11-24-2012 06:56 PM)Neo Wrote:  

Mr McGillycuddy, did you follow through with becoming a copywriter?

Yeah, its my "full-time" job now. I use quotes because its my only real job but I probably never work more than 30 hours in a week and that's being generous. But even at a very part-time commitment, between that and another income stream, I basically cover my rent, utilities, parking, and food each month. That's not saying a lot but I do live in what is generally considered a top 5 US city in terms of cost of living. Not bad for about 4-5 months into it. Now it's time to start building "fuck you" income as West Coast calls it, or something like that...

I've mostly stuck to the freelance sites to get my portfolio built, get some testimonials, and hone my craft a bit. I read several of the resources mentioned in this thread (Ultimate Sales Letter, 72 Tips for Elance, and The Wealthy Freelancer) and those served to get me started.

The first couple of months, I worked at pretty low rates and I worked on just about anything. I just wanted to build up my feedback and my portfolio.

Now, however, I've done that and I am pretty confident in my ability to cover my living expenses if I get in a tough spot and have to "bottom feed" or put in more hours, so I've been foregoing a bit of money/success rate by trying to focus my marketing efforts and only work in a few different markets/niches. I've also been trying to focus on sales letters, emails, and sales scripts, all of which I enjoy most and also seem to do best at.

Similarly, within the last several weeks, I have started to only pitch at $35/hr or more (I also have some ongoing work locked in at $20-25/hr that I will consider "firing" if I start getting a lot more at $35+).
I can say without a doubt that the quality of my writing has improved dramatically so an increase in rates is only fair.

My clients have all been incredibly happy and pretty much every one of them with some sort of on-going business or copy need has rehired me. My copy converts, I deliver on time, and I communicate constantly, sending updates, samples of the angle I'm taking, etc...All of this has led to satisfied clients across the board.

Simultaneously, I am planning my "escape" from the freelance sites/marketplaces. I have had a few jobs outside of those sites, but nothing steady. I am putting the finishing touches on a web site, just ordered business cards, and am developing a "game plan" on how to proceed, how to network both on and offline, and and how to become a heavy-hitter within those niches that I am best at writing in.

All that said, this is not a walk in the park and it is not easy. I feel that my personal nature and disposition is a good fit for it. I may not work a ton of hours, but I work very hard and very smart and when I am working, I'm 100% focused and productive. I don't have any issues with time management and I am organized as FACK. I can't see people who lack discipline and a pretty consistent management system making it, no matter how good they are at whatever it is they are freelancing on. For that, I highly, highly, highly recommend "Getting Things Done" by David Allen. Get that down and then combine that with good 80/20 prioritization. And then constantly hone the processes and improve the operations.

[Beyond Borders]

(11-27-2012 03:33 AM)Mr McGillycuddy Wrote:  

I feel that my personal nature and disposition is a good fit for it. I may not work a ton of hours, but I work very hard and very smart and when I am working, I'm 100% focused and productive. I don't have any issues with time management and I am organized as FACK. I can't see people who lack discipline and a pretty consistent management system making it, no matter how good they are at whatever it is they are freelancing on. For that, I highly, highly, highly recommend "Getting Things Done" by David Allen. Get that down and then combine that with good 80/20 prioritization. And then constantly hone the processes and improve the operations.

If you've got this part of it down, you'll indeed be a success. It's easily the biggest challenge.

[Vacancier Permanent]

Truly awesome and inspiring stuff guys! While doing some reading/research online about copywriting, something jumped to me: sure it pays nicely to write a sales letter for an offer to the tune of 4 or even 5 figures however, if you think about the bigger picture, that's truly peanuts in lights of how much that sales letter is bringing to the marketer. So that begs the question: why not write for your own offers/products/services? When I get into the copy writing game, it'll be mainly for my own businesses. Thoughts guys?

[Beyond Borders]

(11-27-2012 04:12 AM)Vacancier Permanent Wrote:  

Truly awesome and inspiring stuff guys! While doing some reading/research online about copywriting, something jumped to me: sure it pays nicely to write a sales letter for an offer to the tune of 4 or even 5 figures however, if you think about the bigger picture, that's truly peanuts in lights of how much that sales letter is bringing to the marketer. So that begs the question: why not write for your own offers/products/services? When I get into the copy writing game, it'll be mainly for my own businesses. Thoughts guys?

Absolutely, and that's a great point. The thing is that in order to do that you've also got to have the rest of the marketing funnel down pat, and most people who lack basic copywriting skills lack the other skills too.

Not to mention that most people start in a service business because they need instant cash.

Freelancing creates a way to learn one skill well and at the same time earn money to put in your own projects. Meanwhile, you're working with successful marketers (if your rates are any good) and can thus learn more about the rest of the marketing funnel by watching what they do.

[Mr McGillycuddy]

(11-27-2012 04:23 AM)Beyond Borders Wrote:  

(11-27-2012 04:12 AM)Vacancier Permanent Wrote:  

Truly awesome and inspiring stuff guys! While doing some reading/research online about copywriting, something jumped to me: sure it pays nicely to write a sales letter for an offer to the tune of 4 or even 5 figures however, if you think about the bigger picture, that's truly peanuts in lights of how much that sales letter is bringing to the marketer. So that begs the question: why not write for your own offers/products/services? When I get into the copy writing game, it'll be mainly for my own businesses. Thoughts guys?

Absolutely, and that's a great point. The thing is that in order to do that you've also got to have the rest of the marketing funnel down pat, and most people who lack basic copywriting skills lack the other skills too.

Not to mention that most people start in a service business because they need instant cash.

Freelancing creates a way to learn one skill well and at the same time earn money to put in your own projects. Meanwhile, you're working with successful marketers (if your rates are any good) and can thus learn more about the rest of the marketing funnel by watching what they do.

This. The way I approached it was that I had a good marketing background and I liked writing so I figured I might as well get my cash flow going and my entrepreneurial mind working right off the bat with copywriting. But like I said, I have plans to keep getting bigger and better and using that copywriting as a means to sell my own products is certainly part of that. I am working with some guys that really know their shit and just the discussions we have are teaching me a lot about the other parts of the entrepreneurial puzzle. You have to start somewhere and for most of us with little skills and knowledge, you have to build slowly and surely.

[RichieP]

How are you guys handling the bidding system on Elance?

I'm finding it very time consuming to submit a customized bid that actually has a decent chance of being picked.

Do you have a set piece of copy for your bid, and then a bit of customization inserted somewhere? Or do you have stock "sections" that you put together for each bid?

[Beyond Borders]

I just made $840 writing for a client today with about 5 hours of work! Been putting that work off all month, finally sit down to do it and...it takes me half a day. Seems to be my cycle each month but I know the procrastination and slacking is just a personal issue I need to sort out.

Seriously blows my own mind what's possible with this stuff. I've got another round to polish off tomorrow.

I was just thinking about getting a job too. What I really need to do is stop being a pussy, up my game, and land some more of these big clients - even if it means changing my focus to stay interested (like focusing on content strategy consulting, etc).

Anyways, don't give up, guys! The money's out there.

(12-24-2012 12:40 PM)RichieP Wrote:  

How are you guys handling the bidding system on Elance?

I'm finding it very time consuming to submit a customized bid that actually has a decent chance of being picked.

Do you have a set piece of copy for your bid, and then a bit of customization inserted somewhere? Or do you have stock "sections" that you put together for each bid?

I use customized bids but tailor the opening paragraph and the numbers to each client. Sometimes throw a new sentence in here or there to show personality, demonstrate experience in their niche, show I'm listening, or whatever else it takes to show them I'm the "perfect provider" for the job.

When you're bidding on hundreds of jobs at a time, copy/paste and the "open in new tab" feature in Windows are your friends.

[muc]

For what it's worth I'm a freelancer for years now and I just came into a new city with little to no contacts and one month later I had 2 clients and 5 more offers.

The answer is simply to hustle. I cold-emailed possible clients, kept my blog updated with relevant stuff, went to meetups in my field. Always followed up on all emails and kept a list of progress (like a sales-pipeline) on my computer. It's really like picking up girls. Just get out of there and put in the work.

Hopefully this post wasn't too useless.

[Beyond Borders]

(02-28-2013 03:13 AM)muc Wrote:  

For what it's worth I'm a freelancer for years now and I just came into a new city with little to no contacts and one month later I had 2 clients and 5 more offers.

The answer is simply to hustle. I cold-emailed possible clients, kept my blog updated with relevant stuff, went to meetups in my field. Always followed up on all emails and kept a list of progress (like a sales-pipeline) on my computer. It's really like picking up girls. Just get out of there and put in the work.

Hopefully this post wasn't too useless.

What do you do? Writer? Designer?

[muc]

I'm a software engineer.

But don't worry about the field. Freelance carpenters and painters earn more than I do. I even met a hairdresser who went freelance and offered special deals to a handful of wealthy clients who did well.

It doesn't matter what you do, you always have a skill that other people lack. Or they simply have no time to do it.

If you hustle hard, you can have more gigs than the next guy, even if your skillset is objectively inferior.

[Beyond Borders]

(02-28-2013 03:20 AM)muc Wrote:  

I'm a software engineer.

But don't worry about the field. Freelance carpenters and painters earn more than I do. I even met a hairdresser who went freelance and offered special deals to a handful of wealthy clients who did well.

It doesn't matter what you do, you always have a skill that other people lack. Or they simply have no time to do it.

If you hustle hard, you can have more gigs than the next guy, even if your skillset is objectively inferior.

You must have missed my posts; I'm a full-time freelancer already (who slacks enough to work part-time ha ha). Was just asking because I always like to hear what other freelancers are doing.

Anyways, good advice and I'm sure we'd all like to hear more about your strategies and experiences.

[pitt]

BB funny that i was going through your posts on this thread and you just posted on it.

Just wondering, are you based in the US? Why do you want to get a job? I thought you dont like the idea of having a job. Are you not making enough money to sustain your lifestyle?