[Roosh]

I admire my friend Virgle Kent when it comes to bodybuilding. I see the work and dedication he puts in to get a body that women openly admire. As much as I know that there are advantages is such musculature, I can't make the full commitment to get there. I do work out regularly and eat healthy, as much as my travel schedule allows, but I will remain lean instead of big.

For me there are too many reasons (aka excuses) against going big:

- A lot more time must be spent working out in the gym, preparing meals, and eating. This takes away from other interests that I deem important.

- While "bulking," my food costs are about twice as much. On average I go from spending $7 a day in normal mode to $12 a day in bulking mode. That's almost $2000 a year extra. I can't help but put a monetary price on big size. I know that dedicated bodybuilders spend significantly more once the cost of supplements are thrown in.

- I don't see a difference in female attention with slightly larger size. I went from 175 to 190 this year but noticed no changes in my game responses before the bang (I only got compliments after the bang.) I don't think I would see pre-bang effects until I pass at least 200, but just getting to 190 took a lot of eating that I considered more like a job.

- I'm reluctant to take supplements that would make bigger sizes easier to attain. I like to stay "natural." For the longest time I was even reluctant to take vitamins.

- I don't like having thunder thighs that come from doing squats.

- I'm content with my body when it's lean and thin. I look in the mirror and don't feel dissatisfied.

After hitting 190 pounds a month ago, I'm working my way back down to a target of 180. I'm already down to 183 and prefer my look more at a lighter weight.

So what do you prefer for your body: lean or bulky?

[Big Nilla]

I prefer this, POW... how ya like me now! 235-240ish lean, bulked up pounds.

Roosh, you need to hit the pullups hard if you want to look a lot bigger without weighing a lot.

[attachment=6092]

[Amour Fou]

It reflects your overall style I guess.

I can totally feel VK on getting bulky. There is a deeply satisfying psychological component on being "big" and having girls comment on that. I can feel a different aura and a different response from people when I'm bigger, as in a silent presence.

I'm not ons his level yet, but I can tell that I rather bulky, as my body type and looks favours that as well. I'd look bad and unhealthy if lean, I guess.

[Smitty]

I'm with you Roosh. I work out hard but keep my weight around 185 (I'm 6'0) and watch my body fat very closely. My body is more of the 'mesomorph' type so with a clean diet and consistent work in the gym, I can stay lean, but not skinny. Never had an interest in getting "big." Although, Virgil Kent is a beast with a body that should get him laid for years to come.

I always had the same concern as you (still do, actually) about the legs getting too big since I have naturally thick and strong thighs, but I realized awhile back that leg workouts are an important part of building the core and burning calories...so I hit my legs hard once/week now and it works out just fine. Leg exercises have also been critical to keeping my ass toned. I stopped hitting my legs for a few years and was appalled at the negative change on my ass.

[HiFlo]

(05-07-2012 03:25 PM)Big Nilla Wrote:  

I prefer this, POW... how ya like me now! 235-240ish lean, bulked up pounds.

Roosh, you need to hit the pullups hard if you want to look a lot bigger without weighing a lot.

Nilla good physique but I wouldn't call that lean. You look like 12-14%bf. IMO lean/ripped is 6-8%


For summer, being ripped is my main physique priority right now. I think the general trend now is toward the Hollywood look than the bodybuilder look. There's a happy medium in there somewhere.

[Caligula]

I'm lean and weigh in at 160 lbs / 5'10'' and plan to stay more or less this way. I know there's a benefit, but weighing up the pros and cons I'm not convinced the gains are wroth the extra effort.

Right now my goals are to bulk up my arms / shoulders and trim my body fat enough to get my sixpack more defined for the beach. My thinking is that I can get a lot of the benefits of being bigger without the huge investment by just focusing on these areas.

[Giovonny]

I think you need to look at your bodies natural design. Some of us get big easier then others, some of us stay lean easier then others. I suspect that Virgle has the genetics, bone structure, body type, etc. to get big and stay big. I suspect that Roosh has the body type and genetics to stay lean. If you are naturally a lean person, it can be tough to put on weight and keep it on. Genetics are a bitch and its hard to overcome them.

I say, maximize your natural strengths and design your exercise program to specifically address your genetics/body. If you are naturally muscular, you should probably do what Virgle is doing and be a big, musclular man. If you are naturally thin, you will obviously want to add muscle but understand that you might have to work 10x harder then Virgle to get the same results. A thin guy might be better off just going for a David Beckham type of look or something. Go with the look that makes you feel the most confident.

Personally, I'm lean and would like to be a little more muscular but I am not gonna start force feeding myself extra chicken breasts and stop playing basketball just to be 10 pounds heavier. It's just not worth it for me. But, it might be worth it for someone else.

Maybe the answer is right in the middle, not too skinny, not overly muscular, just fit and healthy looking. And, error on the side of bulk!!!

[_DC_]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: Brad Pitt was 6', 155 lbs in Fight Club. Its amazing how much bigger/better you can look at a very low bodyfat percentage.

It was argued here as well that you can't see this type of physique with a shirt on however, so at a bar it won't do you much good.

I say do what makes you happy. I prefer the atheltic look myself ala basketball players or soccer players. Some girls like thinner guys, some girls like muscular guys.

What's "ideal" is open to conjecture: http://www.rooshvforum.network/thread-6628.h...ight=ideal

[HiFlo]

(05-07-2012 04:03 PM)Giovonny Wrote:  

Personally, I'm lean and would like to be a little more muscular but I am not gonna start force feeding myself extra chicken breasts and stop playing basketball just to be 10 pounds heavier

thats whats protein powders for, brah

[Kitsune]

(05-07-2012 03:46 PM)HiFlo Wrote:  

(05-07-2012 03:25 PM)Big Nilla Wrote:  

I prefer this, POW... how ya like me now! 235-240ish lean, bulked up pounds.

Roosh, you need to hit the pullups hard if you want to look a lot bigger without weighing a lot.

Nilla good physique but I wouldn't call that lean. You look like 12-14%bf. IMO lean/ripped is 6-8%

He is lean, he just also happens to be fucking massive. Lean isn't 6-8%. 6% is a bodybuilder a week or so out from competition, and even pro-athletes aren't that lean.

At Nilla's size you aren't going to get anywhere close to 8% and retain that much muscle mass without a shit-load of drugs. The more he dieted/cut the more muscle-mass per pound he'd lose.

[dk902]

Size is everything for me so I always want to try stay muscular and bulky, but whilst also maintaining a relatively low bodyfat.

I'm going through a bulk phase at the moment, and I agree it does cost a damn sight more time and effort to prepare all the foods. Even though my travelling stints are pretty short, I have to harder to maintain my physique, as I don't have the preparation time for foods. But I wouldn't have it any other way, this is life.

We know the same applies to game, to get what you want you gotta get in the trenches and work your damn balls off. Same in bodybuilding.

Your observations on no differences in game response between 175lbs and 190lbs are interesting. I think a lot of it is in your head when it comes to your physique and women, so the more you feel confident in being a muscular guy with a great physique the more that reflects in your general confidence, energy and aura. So I think gaining [good] weight is only a win win - provided it sits nicely on your frame.

I wager having a muscular physique and being strong is one of the best things out there to make you truly feel like a man. However, it does take a lot of time and devotion and isn't for everyone. I'm pleased it's my passion so I don't feel like it's a chore.

[ElJefe]

Being big serves a real purpose. It actually intimidates the competition and I have a hunch girls dig it far more than they let on, especially the more feminine ones.

That said, being big is "easy" in my eyes. It doesn't involve much discomfort or the pushing of boundaries, I think it's mostly limited to how much you can grow. Being fit and lean requires more will-power and heart - a truer test of character in my book.

Now I'm getting lean via crossfit. I will continue to alternate lean-bulk phases until I hit 400lbs bench, 500lbs squat and 600lbs deadlift. Then I'll seek out new challenges.

[HiFlo]

sorry man, like i said, its a good physique & great lats but that aint lean man, thats what u look like on a bulk.

I just don't see any definition on the arms, delts or back & therefore I can't call that lean.

If he ripped up to 200-205, he'd look great.

[HiFlo]

(05-07-2012 04:27 PM)ElJefe Wrote:  

Being big serves a real purpose. It actually intimidates the competition and I have a hunch girls dig it far more than they let on, especially the more feminine ones.

That said, being big is "easy" in my eyes. It doesn't involve much discomfort or the pushing of boundaries, I think it's mostly limited to how much you can grow. Being fit and lean requires more will-power and heart - a truer test of character in my book.

Now I'm getting lean via crossfit. I will continue to alternate lean-bulk phases until I hit 400lbs bench, 500lbs squat and 600lbs deadlift. Then I'll seek out new challenges.

That crossfit stuff leans u out quickly man! HIIT Circuits are the bomb & put me in a great mood in the morning.

It's a lot easier to be big than lean. I think especially that a lot of guys use the permanent bulking phase as a sort of excuse to eat a few too many carbs and drink a couple more beers than they should hahaha

[RichieP]

My goals:

-Feel capable and strong
-Hold some muscle on my frame and be lean
-Be as HEALTHY and FUNCTIONAL as possible for as LONG as possible. Not destroying my body with high-risk exercise

Im over squats, deadlifts and barbell pressing. Too hard on the joints IMO, even with good form. No one I know does heavy barbell lifts seriously for any length of time (i.e. years) without fucking up a knee/hip/shoulder or back at some point.

I just do chinups, pistol squats and 1-handed or pseudo-planche pushups now, with some lateral raises and curls/forearms for vanity. Enough for full-body strength, a respectable amount of lean muscle where it counts and joints spared from the ravages of the weights room, lol. Also the main exercises can be done gym-free.

[Walnuts]

(05-07-2012 04:31 PM)HiFlo Wrote:  

(05-07-2012 04:27 PM)ElJefe Wrote:  

Being big serves a real purpose. It actually intimidates the competition and I have a hunch girls dig it far more than they let on, especially the more feminine ones.

That said, being big is "easy" in my eyes. It doesn't involve much discomfort or the pushing of boundaries, I think it's mostly limited to how much you can grow. Being fit and lean requires more will-power and heart - a truer test of character in my book.

Now I'm getting lean via crossfit. I will continue to alternate lean-bulk phases until I hit 400lbs bench, 500lbs squat and 600lbs deadlift. Then I'll seek out new challenges.

That crossfit stuff leans u out quickly man! HIIT Circuits are the bomb & put me in a great mood in the morning.

It's a lot easier to be big than lean. I think especially that a lot of guys use the permanent bulking phase as a sort of excuse to eat a few too many carbs and drink a couple more beers than they should hahaha

That depends on your body type. i'm pretty lean at 5'10, 163 lbs. i have quite a low bf%. but i find it very hard to gain weight. I need to be eating huge meals. i'd prefer to get up to 170. but it's hard work and expensive having to eat all that food.

For me it's easier to lose weight than gain it. being an ectomorph is a gift and a curse.

[travolta]

I prefer to improve my athletic performance over aesthetics. I used to be into lifting heavy so my goal was to get big. Right now I'd rather be a good rock climber than anything, so I don't care much about if I get big or small. Performance is way more important. Climbing doesn't go well with size, so I suppose my goal is to become more lean.

[mikeymike]

(05-07-2012 04:27 PM)ElJefe Wrote:  

Being big serves a real purpose. It actually intimidates the competition and I have a hunch girls dig it far more than they let on, especially the more feminine ones.

That said, being big is "easy" in my eyes. It doesn't involve much discomfort or the pushing of boundaries, I think it's mostly limited to how much you can grow. Being fit and lean requires more will-power and heart - a truer test of character in my book.

Now I'm getting lean via crossfit. I will continue to alternate lean-bulk phases until I hit 400lbs bench, 500lbs squat and 600lbs deadlift. Then I'll seek out new challenges.

being big is easy?...being fat is easy...don't get the 2 twisted...you think 175 5% requires more will-power and heart than 250 and 7%? anybody can be a skinny pipsqueak...not everybody can be a cut up big boy.

[MikeCF]

I have bodybuilder and male friends who get outright called out for their bodies.

I'm not at that level yet, though I'm towards it.

However, with my body, I basically never miss out on a close.

Once the girl is alone with me and starts feeling me up (I don't dress guido, so if anything, I "dress down" my build).

Also, if you get big in your 20s and 30s, you'll have a good body into your 50s.

Unless you take a lot of drugs, the body you have at 35(ish) is the best your body is ever going to be.

After a certain age, you just train to maintain your body. You can maintain it well into old age.

So whether you want a big body or not is a decision to make at a young age. As with a woman's fertility, your decision will impact you for the rest of your life.

[PDX]

Lean.

- Hate the time, effort, and expense of bulking.
- Ditto Roosh on the supplements. No telling what years of taking these things will do to a person.
- As I get older, I want to minimize joint stress and impact.
- Don't want man-boobs in my old age.
- There isn't a better look than a fitted suit on a perfectly-proportioned 6' man.

[Big Nilla]

(05-07-2012 03:46 PM)HiFlo Wrote:  

(05-07-2012 03:25 PM)Big Nilla Wrote:  

I prefer this, POW... how ya like me now! 235-240ish lean, bulked up pounds.

Nilla good physique but I wouldn't call that lean. You look like 12-14%bf. IMO lean/ripped is 6-8%

LOL, your definition of "lean" is a bit extreme. Even most pro bodybuilders and pro athletes over 200 pounds can't sustain 6% or less bf for more than a few weeks. I'd call a 32 inch waist and abs popping at 235-240, lean... but what do I know. BF measuring is notoriously inaccurate anyway so can't go by simple bf #'s.

You're seeing a camera phone pic with no fancy lighting, no loading up on dark tanning oils, and no dehydrating myself (shorts tied tight didn't help either). I could've artificially looked a lot leaner in 1-2 days by making changes to those 4 things.

Anyway cool, I'm not lean by your standards. But I'll survive the insecurities and depression you just caused me.

[HiFlo]

well dude I actually complemented your physique.

I mean I'm lookin at it like this: you posted your pic on here, which you really had nothing to do with OP at all, and it really seemed to me that you posted it to brag, "how ya like me now! 235-240ish lean, bulked up pounds"

It's all good & u have a lot to be proud of where you're at aesthetically but no man, you're not lean. You're carrying a lot of water weight & bulk that looks more like you're on a test bulking cycle than leaning down.

[rudebwoy]

Bulky!

Roosh you have height, which will make you more dominant.

For me I get better responses the bigger I am, women simply love a guy with size.
I am 5 feet 11 and 195llbs, I actually feel I need to get bigger.

In some way we are all competing against each other as men, so any advantage I can have I will use.

[bacan]

I would like to have a six pack over being bulkier but not as lean. But man.. it takes so damn much self control to get that cut, damn.

[Newb#3]

(05-07-2012 03:01 PM)Roosh Wrote:  

- I don't see a difference in female attention with slightly larger size. I went from 175 to 190 this year but noticed no changes in my game responses before the bang (I only got compliments after the bang.) I don't think I would see pre-bang effects until I pass at least 200, but just getting to 190 took a lot of eating that I considered more like a job.

- I don't like having thunder thighs that come from doing squats.

Hey man,

Based on these two points, I take it you're one of those guys who mainly puts on mass in his lower body? That would also explain the lack of reaction from women, since impressive legs don't stick out as much as other areas would.

You might not be able to fix that issue, but I think there are a few things that you can do to alleviate it somewhat.

For starters, I think you should limit the amount of lower body work you do, and keep it strictly to lower reps. Work lower body once a week, maybe even take a week off here and there, and just do your squats and deads for maybe 3 heavy, low rep sets, with only one a your top weight. Avoid too much volume, and higher reps, since those are key in building legs. You could completely cut out lower body work, too, but I think at least squats and deadlifts are something you should do from time to time if you can.

And you should make the focus of your lifting on building muscle in the right places so that with less effort, you can stand out more. These areas are the shoulders, back (especially lats), and arms. A good v-taper, and good arms are what I think are most important. So that means shoulder press, pull ups, DB lateral raises, close grip bench presses, dips, curls and the like.

I don't like rudimentary routines like Starting Strength, because they don't place an emphasis on bodyparts, so people can easily end up with aesthetically unbalanced physiques. Get on a regular bodybuilding split that will make it easier to focus on your weak areas. There's nothing wrong with splits for someone lifting for looks, since they're a lot more flexible.

If you do those two things, you could possibly lose weight and still come out looking better.

Also, regarding your point about supplements and being natural, I think it'd be better to make an exception for some whey protein. It saves me money to get around half of my daily protein from powder, and that might help you get over budget issues.