[Donald Duck]

(03-31-2012 09:38 AM)metalhaze Wrote:  

People here on the forum might tell you otherwise but if you want to protect yourself and stay healthy when you get older then deadlifts and squats, which actually builds more muscles than DL, are dangerous exercises.

weightlifting with a heavy barbell i.e. clean and jerk, DL, squats, bent over rows cannot be done in perfect form for every rep. the moment you get tired, your form will suffer and once your form suffers you are gonna snap some shit up in your back.

From what you wrote that sounds like a sprain, I had a back sprain due to DL a month ago and I still can't go to the gym.

listen to interviews of Dr. Sturat Mcgill aka dr. spine. You need a certain physique to do olympic style weightlifting, specially squats and DL, it is not a casual sport like basketball.

you know why they call it a deadlift? cause once you snap something up, you back will NEVER be the same and you can suffer from a bad back and chronic pain for the rest of your life. Don't believe me? ronnie coleman just did a massive spine surgery recently cause he blew some discs in his back due to heavy lifts back in the day.

Btw the same goes for the shoulder and knees. once you bust your shoulder, which is a highly complex mechanical limb, it will NEVER be the same again, so stay away from doing heavy upright rows.

anyway, you can study DL and squats but you cannot get a 100% correct form on every rep and it only takes one false move to crack something in your spine.

this is just advice, don't destroy yourself.

You sound like the hodgetwins...

[whitenoise]

(04-02-2012 10:51 AM)Donald Duck Wrote:  

(03-31-2012 09:38 AM)metalhaze Wrote:  

People here on the forum might tell you otherwise but if you want to protect yourself and stay healthy when you get older then deadlifts and squats, which actually builds more muscles than DL, are dangerous exercises.

weightlifting with a heavy barbell i.e. clean and jerk, DL, squats, bent over rows cannot be done in perfect form for every rep. the moment you get tired, your form will suffer and once your form suffers you are gonna snap some shit up in your back.

From what you wrote that sounds like a sprain, I had a back sprain due to DL a month ago and I still can't go to the gym.

listen to interviews of Dr. Sturat Mcgill aka dr. spine. You need a certain physique to do olympic style weightlifting, specially squats and DL, it is not a casual sport like basketball.

you know why they call it a deadlift? cause once you snap something up, you back will NEVER be the same and you can suffer from a bad back and chronic pain for the rest of your life. Don't believe me? ronnie coleman just did a massive spine surgery recently cause he blew some discs in his back due to heavy lifts back in the day.

Btw the same goes for the shoulder and knees. once you bust your shoulder, which is a highly complex mechanical limb, it will NEVER be the same again, so stay away from doing heavy upright rows.

anyway, you can study DL and squats but you cannot get a 100% correct form on every rep and it only takes one false move to crack something in your spine.

this is just advice, don't destroy yourself.

You sound like the hodgetwins...

he is actually on point.

people are too quick to make light of the risks of weight training. there's an all too common belief that an emphasis good form will inure you against all harm, which simply isn't true if you lift maximally.

there's a huge amount of survivor bias in the popular literature on weight training. people with a poor response to training don't go on to thrive and write about the subject. as with most things in life, there is a wide distribution of ability.

note: i'm not advocating anyone abandon weight training - just that you should always be aware of the risks involved, and be realistic in your own goals (a 400lb bench is nice, but you don't need it to look good)

[MidniteSpecial]

serge nubert who is considered one of the best bodies of all time never lifted heavy weights.....he would do like 15 sets of twenty reps...he would also only eat one meal a day, which usually consisted of 4 pounds of horse meat, rice and beans. Do a google search on his routine and his pictures it is pretty interesting. I try not to go to heavy but sometimes I like to but I always am at a spot where I can throw drop the weights and bail if I need too.. IF you always keep a neutral spine and do back extensions as part of your warm up everyday you can pretty much bullet proof yor back from weight lifting injuries. I noticed if I just do alot of dips, pull ups, and air squats everyday that I stay pretty jacked. Majority of being jacked and ripped is diet anyway.

[velkrum]

jesus christ...why are people advocating the easy way of doing things ??

How many people would respond positively to training "safely" and eating 1 meal a day ?

come on folks, get real, stop acting like over protective moms. I'd love to see what you guys look like or what your performance is like in the gym.

Pussies don't get results...People who practice and work hard are the ones who achieve great things.
...As always use common sense but don't be afraid to test yourself and Push your limits

[whitenoise]

(04-03-2012 12:45 AM)velkrum Wrote:  

jesus christ...why are people advocating the easy way of doing things ??

How many people would respond positively to training "safely" and eating 1 meal a day ?

come on folks, get real, stop acting like over protective moms. I'd love to see what you guys look like or what your performance is like in the gym.

Pussies don't get results...People who practice and work hard are the ones who achieve great things.
...As always use common sense but don't be afraid to test yourself and Push your limits

straw man bro. i'm not saying you should just rep out the 50lb dumbbells, but that you need to evaluate what risks are really necessary. deadlifts, for example, are a great exercise but absolutely not required for a great physique. the same with heavy squats or maxing out on the bench. there are other ways of pushing your limits besides loading up as much weight as possible on the heaviest most macho lifts.

full disclosure: i am 6'0 ~200lbs with body fat approaching 20%. chest 41" arms 15" legs 25" (at peak). i've not lifted much since the new year so i am slowly getting tubbier. not impressive? i've spent most of my time in the gym chasing after heavier lifts and injured myself needlessly in the process

[Moma]

(04-02-2012 01:36 PM)MidniteSpecial Wrote:  

serge nubert who is considered one of the best bodies of all time never lifted heavy weights.....he would do like 15 sets of twenty reps...he would also only eat one meal a day, which usually consisted of 4 pounds of horse meat, rice and beans. Do a google search on his routine and his pictures it is pretty interesting. I try not to go to heavy but sometimes I like to but I always am at a spot where I can throw drop the weights and bail if I need too.. IF you always keep a neutral spine and do back extensions as part of your warm up everyday you can pretty much bullet proof yor back from weight lifting injuries. I noticed if I just do alot of dips, pull ups, and air squats everyday that I stay pretty jacked. Majority of being jacked and ripped is diet anyway.

You forgot to include his three staple injections of horse roids along with his horsemeat, holmes.

[dk902]

(03-31-2012 04:11 PM)metalhaze Wrote:  

(03-31-2012 02:48 PM)MikeCF Wrote:  

You can break your dick fucking.

Not every guy wants to go through life with 13 inch biceps.

then do pull ups with a weight belt.

Again do DL, Squats and cleans at your own risk. just google Dr. Stuart Mcgill.

Unless you are a competitive powerlifter, once you snap some shit in your back IT WILL NEVER BE THE SAME AGAIN. you can end up being on a wheelchair by the time you are in your 50s-60s, It's not a joke.

Most russian olympic lifters train 80% of the time with very low weights concentrating on form only.


yes these moves will make you grow but the risk is too high, all it takes is one false rep in a 400 pound squat or DL and snap you are in bed for weeks with chronic back pain short of herniating a disc.

True, but all it takes is one false move when I walk across the street and I get run over by a car?

I've never understood this logic, if you learn correct form then there is no issue. The benefits far outweigh any minor risks.

If you eat raw chicken then you get food poisoning, so you need to learn how to cook it...

I can deadlift over 500lbs, I had a few aches on my knees and a sore back for one day when I was first started out and couldn't bend over because my body wasn't used to it. Other than that no issues.

I think only people who've never deadlifted advocate against doing it, as with always in weightlifting.

You build a big thick back, arms and legs, burn tons of calories, your metabolism goes through the roof and you look awesome lifting lots of plates, what's not to like?

[Moma]

(04-03-2012 03:26 PM)dk902 Wrote:  

True, but all it takes is one false move when I walk across the street and I get run over by a car?

I've never understood this logic, if you learn correct form then there is no issue. The benefits far outweigh any minor risks.

If you eat raw chicken then you get food poisoning, so you need to learn how to cook it...

I can deadlift over 500lbs, I had a few aches on my knees and a sore back for one day when I was first started out and couldn't bend over because my body wasn't used to it. Other than that no issues.

I think only people who've never deadlifted advocate against doing it, as with always in weightlifting.

You build a big thick back, arms and legs, burn tons of calories, your metabolism goes through the roof and you look awesome lifting lots of plates, what's not to like?

can you list your height and weight please? What supplements do you take? How much do you bench?
Squat?
Thanks in advance

[Hades]

Not sure why barbell training has such a bad rap. Most people who are patient and consistent with their warmups and lifting do not ever get injured. The whole "only one applicable bodytype to train, says Doctor So-and-So" thing is a myth perpetuated by self-defeatist gym rats who don't do compound exercises.

If you have no patience for doing your reps properly (and keeping your workouts 3-5 times weekly and around an hour to 1.5 hours), then yeah, you're going to hurt yourself.

You can train hard and really avoid injuries by following something like Convict Conditioning, but the results will take you a little longer. It's not a perfect system but since Paul Wade advocates keeping reps in the bank and leaving the gym fresh, it's practically impossible to hurt yourself and you'll get plenty strong in the process.

I also read "Starting Strength" and as far as I can tell it's the best muscle-gaining program for younger athletes out there.

[dk902]

(04-03-2012 03:47 PM)Moma Wrote:  

(04-03-2012 03:26 PM)dk902 Wrote:  

True, but all it takes is one false move when I walk across the street and I get run over by a car?

I've never understood this logic, if you learn correct form then there is no issue. The benefits far outweigh any minor risks.

If you eat raw chicken then you get food poisoning, so you need to learn how to cook it...

I can deadlift over 500lbs, I had a few aches on my knees and a sore back for one day when I was first started out and couldn't bend over because my body wasn't used to it. Other than that no issues.

I think only people who've never deadlifted advocate against doing it, as with always in weightlifting.

You build a big thick back, arms and legs, burn tons of calories, your metabolism goes through the roof and you look awesome lifting lots of plates, what's not to like?

can you list your height and weight please? What supplements do you take? How much do you bench?
Squat?
Thanks in advance

5"10 / 83kg.

Weight training almost 5 years, I take just fish oil, creatine and protein powders is about as supplemental as I get.

My squatting and bench are poor in comparison. Squat 285lb Bench 220lb.

I give them as much time and effort as my deadlift, but I think the mechanics of my body work well for deadlift hence I'm good at it. Plateauing on the others right now.

I did 5/3/1 programme written by Jim Wendler and got some great strength out of it.

Clean diet with the odd treat, like a drink. No huge secret, I don't consider myself strong as my other lifts are poor at the moment, just a good deadlifter.

[ElJefe]

OK, tomorrow I'm going to give deadlift a go. Squatted 310lbs for reps yesterday, lumbar felt just fine. I'm stretching out, will make sure and eat plenty of carbs and get my supplements.

Then I'll post a vid for critique.

[metalhaze]

I have the book SS 3rd edition.

Again, the more weight you put on the barbell the more risk you have to do a rep with a bad form and all it takes is one bad rep with heavy weights to snap something in your spine...and when that happen, it will never be the same again, you could be having disc problems your whole life.

just google herniated disc and bodybuilding...most of the injuries occur during DL, squats and cleans.

do at your own risk.

[whitenoise]

(04-03-2012 03:26 PM)dk902 Wrote:  

(03-31-2012 04:11 PM)metalhaze Wrote:  

(03-31-2012 02:48 PM)MikeCF Wrote:  

You can break your dick fucking.

Not every guy wants to go through life with 13 inch biceps.

then do pull ups with a weight belt.

Again do DL, Squats and cleans at your own risk. just google Dr. Stuart Mcgill.

Unless you are a competitive powerlifter, once you snap some shit in your back IT WILL NEVER BE THE SAME AGAIN. you can end up being on a wheelchair by the time you are in your 50s-60s, It's not a joke.

Most russian olympic lifters train 80% of the time with very low weights concentrating on form only.


yes these moves will make you grow but the risk is too high, all it takes is one false rep in a 400 pound squat or DL and snap you are in bed for weeks with chronic back pain short of herniating a disc.

True, but all it takes is one false move when I walk across the street and I get run over by a car?

I've never understood this logic, if you learn correct form then there is no issue. The benefits far outweigh any minor risks.

If you eat raw chicken then you get food poisoning, so you need to learn how to cook it...

I can deadlift over 500lbs, I had a few aches on my knees and a sore back for one day when I was first started out and couldn't bend over because my body wasn't used to it. Other than that no issues.

I think only people who've never deadlifted advocate against doing it, as with always in weightlifting.

You build a big thick back, arms and legs, burn tons of calories, your metabolism goes through the roof and you look awesome lifting lots of plates, what's not to like?

i have done a lot of deadlifting; i deadlifted pretty much once a week for my first year of lifting until i started suffering from back pain. yes, it's a great exercise, but i can build my back in other (perhaps less efficient) ways. on a personal level i'm not too bothered about leg development. and that too can be done by other means

the idea of perfect form as a protection against injury is a myth. even with a perfect posture and control you are working against some serious forces. in reality, form breaks down when you lift maximally.

there is too much heterogeneity in the population to allow the usual blanket statements about barbell lifting. usually the biggest trolls are the 'survivors' who have never suffered serious injury...

(04-03-2012 04:10 PM)Hades Wrote:  

Not sure why barbell training has such a bad rap. Most people who are patient and consistent with their warmups and lifting do not ever get injured. The whole "only one applicable bodytype to train, says Doctor So-and-So" thing is a myth perpetuated by self-defeatist gym rats who don't do compound exercises.

If you have no patience for doing your reps properly (and keeping your workouts 3-5 times weekly and around an hour to 1.5 hours), then yeah, you're going to hurt yourself.

You can train hard and really avoid injuries by following something like Convict Conditioning, but the results will take you a little longer. It's not a perfect system but since Paul Wade advocates keeping reps in the bank and leaving the gym fresh, it's practically impossible to hurt yourself and you'll get plenty strong in the process.

I also read "Starting Strength" and as far as I can tell it's the best muscle-gaining program for younger athletes out there.

i've done plenty of compound lifts. watchout your comments bro

i'm not sure what you're contributing to this discussion. what evidence do you have for the effectiveness of starting strength? what do you mean by 'most' don't get injured - is that a 5/10/15% injury rate?

[Moma]

@whitenoise and metalhaze, what happens when you try and lift a box in the garage and you crumble to the floor herniating your back and etc? What about when you try and open the jar of jam for your wife/female relative and you break your scrawny wrists?

What happens when you engage in some physical activity such as playing badminton, ping pong or frisbee throwing and you split your quads due to the stress on your body?

You guys are fear mongering quite a bit. Weight lifting is merely simulating the activities one experiences in real life. When you face weights in real life, how will you handle it?

[whitenoise]

(04-03-2012 08:22 PM)Moma Wrote:  

@whitenoise and metalhaze, what happens when you try and lift a box in the garage and you crumble to the floor herniating your back and etc? What about when you try and open the jar of jam for your wife/female relative and you break your scrawny wrists?

What happens when you engage in some physical activity such as playing badminton, ping pong or frisbee throwing and you split your quads due to the stress on your body?

You guys are fear mongering quite a bit. Weight lifting is merely simulating the activities one experiences in real life. When you face weights in real life, how will you handle it?

yeah, because deadlifting 500lbs is just like an everyday, functional activity... if you happen to be a pro strongman.

there are degrees of similarity, and weightlifting doesn't even come close to approximating most athletic activities, let alone the challenges of everyday life.

i still lift weights and will carry on working out for as long as i can. it's a matter of choosing the best approach in terms of effort and injury risk that works for my goals

for example, i avoid certain things in the gym yet i still play rugby despite it's very high injury rate. i value the experience of playing enough to make the risk worthwhile.

perhaps you have a very durable body. even so, i'm sure there are exercises you would stay away from in the gym because of the (personal) risk involved. bench press while doing a neck bridge perhaps? it's functional bro

[Moma]

(04-03-2012 08:30 PM)whitenoise Wrote:  

(04-03-2012 08:22 PM)Moma Wrote:  

@whitenoise and metalhaze, what happens when you try and lift a box in the garage and you crumble to the floor herniating your back and etc? What about when you try and open the jar of jam for your wife/female relative and you break your scrawny wrists?

What happens when you engage in some physical activity such as playing badminton, ping pong or frisbee throwing and you split your quads due to the stress on your body?

You guys are fear mongering quite a bit. Weight lifting is merely simulating the activities one experiences in real life. When you face weights in real life, how will you handle it?

yeah, because deadlifting 500lbs is just like an everyday, functional activity... if you happen to be a pro strongman.

there are degrees of similarity, and weightlifting doesn't even come close to approximating most athletic activities, let alone the challenges of everyday life.

i still lift weights and will carry on working out for as long as i can. it's a matter of choosing the best approach in terms of effort and injury risk that works for my goals

for example, i avoid certain things in the gym yet i still play rugby despite it's very high injury rate. i value the experience of playing enough to make the risk worthwhile.

perhaps you have a very durable body. even so, i'm sure there are exercises you would stay away from in the gym because of the (personal) risk involved. bench press while doing a neck bridge perhaps? it's functional bro

Is this about deadlifting 500lbs or is it about deadlifting, period? I would only lift what I can and maybe push beyond my max for 5lbs more with a spotter at hand. Never lift for ego. But to go for big numbers just to go for it doesn't make sense to me since there is always some brute in there that is stronger.

But to abandon deadlifting or weightlifting because of the fear of one thing going wrong, is not a concept I can concur with, I'm afraid.

[Mr.GM]

I lost weight considerably in the last months due to my cutting diet. I suffered 2 injuries(1 from deadlift and the other squatting). I'm considering getting off stronglifts during this "skinny" period , it seems that my body is suffering from strenght training right now.

[Hades]

(04-03-2012 08:17 PM)whitenoise Wrote:  

(04-03-2012 04:10 PM)Hades Wrote:  

Not sure why barbell training has such a bad rap. Most people who are patient and consistent with their warmups and lifting do not ever get injured. The whole "only one applicable bodytype to train, says Doctor So-and-So" thing is a myth perpetuated by self-defeatist gym rats who don't do compound exercises.

If you have no patience for doing your reps properly (and keeping your workouts 3-5 times weekly and around an hour to 1.5 hours), then yeah, you're going to hurt yourself.

You can train hard and really avoid injuries by following something like Convict Conditioning, but the results will take you a little longer. It's not a perfect system but since Paul Wade advocates keeping reps in the bank and leaving the gym fresh, it's practically impossible to hurt yourself and you'll get plenty strong in the process.

I also read "Starting Strength" and as far as I can tell it's the best muscle-gaining program for younger athletes out there.

i've done plenty of compound lifts. watchout your comments bro

i'm not sure what you're contributing to this discussion. what evidence do you have for the effectiveness of starting strength? what do you mean by 'most' don't get injured - is that a 5/10/15% injury rate?

I apologize man, didn't know and shouldn't have gotten bitchy anyway.

As for starting strength, I've personally seen four track throwers and wrestlers make almost linear gains in their strength for two months or more. One dude in particular (gallon of milk is critical) gained about thirty pounds of solid muscle in a spring/summer training program.

I have personally put on ten pounds of muscle since new years (on an abbreviated SS) but quit in favor of a different routine. I only do deadlifts. My gym is equipped for squats and bench press but I'm not doing either to avoid overtraining.

The only guys I see getting injured in the gym are football players with a "go until you're fucking dead, then throw on another plate" mentality. That works for a while, then you sit on the bench with a torn meniscus for a month. The baseballers and track players are more conservative with adding weight and reps and almost never get injured. So yeah, overall I guess maybe one in five serious lifters get injured.

To put it into perspective, most injuries I see are back or knee injuries (and infrequent rotor cuff injuries), and if you do your calisthenics three to five times a week, none of this is a problem. My back and abs are so swole that my deadlift is limited by my legs.

When I go to kickboxing and we finish with 25 boxers situps and 25 back extensions, I'm the only guy who can do slow, full, proper reps and am not jiving shit halfway through, and I'm a fat and tall man compared to these guys. This is why I can deadlift safely and most can't, and all thanks to calisthenics.

[Blue!!!]

(03-30-2012 05:14 AM)Laser Wrote:  

One spot where a lot of guys go wrong is over training on deadlifts. Deadlifts should be done w/ high weight, low reps and sets. The basic starting strength program proscribes 1 set of 5, but the weight should be high enough that the 5th rep is super difficult. Deadlifts are harder to recover from as well, so doing them multiple times per week is not advised.

I highly recommend picking up a copy of Rippetoe's Starting Strength. Here's an excerpt from the deadlift chapter to get you started:

That book blew my fucking mind. I downloaded the E-book after Roosh mentioned it in a post. It reviewed the ways in which everything my high school conditioning coach (I played football) taught me was wrong. I've gone from doing mediocre weight with bad form and no improvement in sight, to doing the same weight correctly and I keep adding more. It's not that my previous coaches were ignorant, it's just that they knew so much that wasn't so.

[assman]

Deadlifts have, and always will be, a pretty controversial exercise. Most guys I see doing it do it with shitty form, and that's a terrible risk:reward tradeoff.

One thing I've noticed that good deadlifters have in common is flexibility. The next time you see someone with great deadlift form - i.e., they can keep their butt high and not 'squat' the lift and they maintain excellent lumbar extension, ask them if they can touch their toes. Odds are, they can.

[reaper23]

if it hurts you are doing it wrong period.

my max is 435.

i rarely, like once every two months, attempt a max. i usually do sets of 3 or 5 at say 315 or 340. every so often doing sets of 1 or 2 at 385 or 405.

my body can handle the higher weights so when i'm repping out at 340 it is no problem.

if you're not an idiot and you dont try and max with shitty form all the time, you will reduce your chance of injuries.

i'm 36 and old and shit and it takes me a while to warm up too.

if i can do it, you can too

again - if it hurts, you are doing it wrong. stop. get a friend to help, take a video and post it to rippetoe's website where he and the others will critique you for free.

[Feo]

Pull your in your knees and push your butt out..lean back. Fixed my back pain immediately!! Bar should almost scrape your shin on the way up while keeping your knees behind the bar. Then drive your hips forward at the top. I did this wrong for almost a year and jacked my back. If your back hurts you are TOO FAR FORWARD!

I alternate between squats and deads 2/3 times per week and use it to fuel peripheral upper body workouts. If you didn't know, squats and deads increase testosterone and growth hormone concentration in the blood stream and have a synergistic effect when augmented with your peripheral workouts.

[Giovonny]

(04-06-2012 03:52 PM)assman Wrote:  

One thing I've noticed that good deadlifters have in common is flexibility.

Yes, this the rarely discussed secret too explosivesness, speed, power, etc.

FLEXIBILITY is so under-rated.

[ElJefe]

I made a movie but don't have a cable to upload it with, but it's OBVIOUS my back is totally fucked.

I need to put my butt down a whole lot more (and bend the knees more), which was what I was doing before the pain came but I thought that was wrong. Otherwise my back doesn't stay straight

I went back and tried again yesteday but the pain was still there from before, put my butt down and bent the knees adequately, but the pain from the previous times was still there. I couldn't support the weight of my OWN back afterwards, I had to lean against the wall for support. So I'm dropping deadlift for now.

I'll get back into it when I start crossfitting after May 1st.

I read about "adaptation" and its importance. This could also be a factor, besides my inflexibility. Have been working on flexibility, and hopefully a few hundreds reps at lower weights (crossfit) will be the remedy for this. And a good break.

Otherwise bench and squat proceeding nicely, adding 5lbs a week, on average. No back problems with squats, strangely.

[reaper23]

dude, if your crossfit gym has not corrected/taught you proper deadlift form, then you should quit and find another gym.

we did max DL's today and I pulled 385. I could have done more but I felt my back position slipping a little and stopped at 385.

they coach and review every. single. rep. if you are not perfect with safe form, you're done.

anything else is negligent.