[VincentVinturi]

(05-09-2019 10:58 PM)Sherman Wrote:  

Psychedelic drugs don't give you any special insights about the meaning of life. It just alters your supply of serotonin, similar to antidepressants. Read anything Timothy Leary wrote after his experiences with LSD. It is all nonsense and he left no lasting legacy He was a Harvard professor who could have produced important work. Why didn't LSD improve his intelligence and give him an advantage? His daughter committed suicide hanging herself with her shoelaces. Why didn't drug induced spiritual insights help her live a stable life? However there is no doubt that America is going to eventually legalize Marijuana and all psychedelic drugs, because there are big money interests involved in it now. Their marketing departments will describe all the medical benefits and your doctor will give you a prescription.

Now you guys have done it...

Primo:

Drugs or no drugs, ALL experiences "just alter" your brain chemistry. Your conclusion that therefore nothing of value can be gleaned from a trip is like saying that going for a swim in the ocean on a beautiful day "just" influences your brain chemistry in a particular way but it isn't of any real, ultimate value.

Your argument is: "psychedelics alter your supply of serotonin. Therefore, they don't give you any special insights about life." Do you see how your conclusion is a non sequitur?

On an epistemological note, the danger of of materialist thinking—the notion that "we are all just a collection of random atoms bouncing around", or, "everything we perceive is just a bunch of chemical reactions and electrical impulses in the brain"—is that you can be swayed to believe that man as such is of no intrinsic value.

After all, what value could a large clump of particles possibly possess? And of what value could any experience possibly be to this clump? In fact, you often here cliches to the effect of, "life is ultimately meaningless", "we're all just microscopic dots floating in an unfathomably vast and indifferent universe", and so forth.

That may all be so in the strict physical sense. But does that make man's life meaningless? I certainly don't believe so.

If, on the other hand, your basic premise is that man's life is a standard of value and that what he does and experiences is in fact of tremendous value—as evaluated by some kind of objective standards—then you couldn't discount powerful experiences as valueless even if they are a product of "just a bunch of chemicals".

Secundo:

Whether Timothy Leary was a crackpot or not, whether or not he produced work which you might consider meaningful, and whether or not his daughter committed suicide, has no bearing on the substance of the question of whether or not psychedelic experiences bring any real value or insight to the tripper's life. And frankly, it's poor form to trample on a young girl's grave as fodder for your flimsy argument. Suicide affects drugs users and non-drug users alike.

(05-10-2019 12:08 AM)TigerMandingo Wrote:  

I don’t get it either. If trippy drugs are supposed to spark some sort of creative genius, then why was virtually all of the world’s greatest art, architecture, and literature produced without their help? Maybe alcohol and cigarettes.

I've never heard it claimed that psychedelics "spark creative genius".

I've heard (and have experienced) that they help with creative problem solving, mood, dealing with inner issues, etc. But genius? That's a stretch. True geniuses, in the strict sense of the word, are all generally born (or rarely, induced with some kind of trauma to the head which forces the brain to reroute neuronal pathways using uncommon routes).

Dropping acid won't turn you into a Von Neumann. A Leary maybe, but not a Von Neumann.

On the second point, of you're looking for evidence that psychedelics are supposed to "spark creative genius", let's be honest—you don't have much data to work with. And as Sherlock Holmes said, "t is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

These substances are virtually brand new in terms of their relatively recent discovery (save tribal cultures who used them in various forms shamanistically), our understanding of their effects, and perhaps most importantly—their wide spread availability.

You could argue that Steve Jobs unlocked a portion of genius via psychedelics and meditation. In fact, he claimed that taking LSD was one of the most important things he'd ever done. He was a miserable bastard, but he was certainly an uncannily smart man.

Come to think of it, there's actually a book that addresses your contention that outside of cigarettes and alcohol, no great works of creation were fueled by substances. It's called "Daily habits: how artists work", and it catalogs a bunch of writers and artists and such. Some were straight edge. Some were meth heads. Some were drunks. Pretty cool book really.

I think the salient point is that you're not going to become some brilliant polymath by taking mushrooms. But you may very well come to some useful insights, emotional technologies, and practical understandings that will help you in the context of your own life, however insignificant that may be when compared to the creative giants of our world, of whom there are very few.

(05-10-2019 12:52 AM)VNvet Wrote:  

I'll go by my tried and tested rule:

If the Establishment glorifies it, then it's bad for you.

I'm not sure what the angle on mushrooms is, but there's a reason it's been getting pushed in pop culture for a while now. And that reason isn't to help you.

Man I was just saying the same thing to my friend yesterday when he forwarded me this news.

As the OP pointed out, the amount of effort that was going into enforcing the anti-mushrooms laws prior to this new act was pretty insignificant (50 arrests per year). Which makes me wonder if the establishment (if there is such a thing) is giving the populace a littler rat pellet that deludes them into thinking that real progress and reform is happening.

It's sort of a peck on the cheek at the end of a date.

And what's most disturbing about it is that all of the arguments FOR the decriminalization / legalization of drugs is on pragmatic or altruistic grounds. E.g. "it's expensive to enforce", or, "they don't really hurt anybody", or, "there's not that many people doing it", etc.

It's not like the police will stop arresting drug users. They'll arrest more of different kinds of drug users (and dealers). That's where the money is made in the drug war anyway. You can have your little mushrooms as long as we get to continue this war on drugs, which kills tens of thousands of Mexicans per year, and incarcerates God knows how many Americans who have never hurt a fly.

Nobody ever addresses the basic morality that underlies this whole issue. In fact, it's intentionally obfuscated and avoided.

The issue is your right to do as you damn well please with your body. In practical terms, the decriminalization of weed and mushrooms while other substances remain arbitrarily illegal, is the state saying to you "you can do ABC with your body, but you can't do XYZ. That's baAaAad for you." So who owns you? Who owns the right to your life and to live it as you see fit?

(05-10-2019 09:44 AM)Mage Wrote:  

When people are tripping they are not procreating.

When people are tripping they are not speaking to each other.

When people are tripping they are not practicing a spirituality that is based on morality.

When people are tripping they are not looking at actions of politicians.

When people are tripping they are not practicing at gun range.

When people are tripping they are not resisting government abuse.

This is hypocritical and I'll explain why I think so.

There's plenty of moron potheads who bury their heads in the sand, fair enough.

But there are also plenty of moron non-potheads who do the same.

None of the alleged consequences—I say alleged because you provided no evidence for your conclusions—of taking psychedelics that you claim above are justification for depriving a man of the right to dispose of his body as he sees fit.

Your argument is essentially that you think psychedelics are baAaaAd because they cause people not to make babies, practice at the gun range, and go to church to the extent that you would prefer. And therefore, you consider it proper to criminalize their use via violence or the threat of imprisonment, when consuming them is simply one man's business.

Is that not the very definition of "government abuse" which you cite above? Is not the government's purpose to defend the citizens from violence against each other by each other, or the state? Is not the state's duty to protect the inalienable rights of their citizens, including the most basic right of all, their property (which naturally means their own bodies)?

(05-10-2019 08:09 PM)scotian Wrote:  

Weren’t the hippies of the 60s who protested the Vietnam war all high on weed and psychedelics? I think our alcoholic culture is a bigger threat to society:

When people are drunk they damage property

When people are drunk they inflict violence on each other

When people are drunk they cause car crashes that destroy lives

When people are drunk they say mean things to people and damage relationships

When people are drunk they have sex with strangers, get STDs and cause unwanted pregnancies

When people drink they get fat, develop beer bellies, eat shitty food and get diabetes

Indeed.

This is a common counter-argument against those who would like to see recreational drugs criminalized. "Well, what about alcohol?" But the reason it never really hits home is that it's an argument from pragmatism. E.g. "pot causes 'x' amount of deaths whilst alcohol causes '1000x' amount of deaths, and therefore why the hell is pot illegal while alcohol is shoved in your face?" Which is all true enough but again completely misses the real issue, which is:

Do you or do you not have the right to do what you want so long as it doesn't *directly* harm others?

My feeling is that if we're not arguing at the level of basic principles we'll never have real freedom. The politicians will throw in a rat pellet from time to time like this thumbs up on mushrooms but it's a decoy that distracts people from the fact that on net balance their freedoms are being systematically abridged, not expanded.

(05-10-2019 11:19 PM)BlastbeatCasanova Wrote:  

Sounds like you either never tried tripping, or became disillusioned with the stereotypical festival burnout. Been there myself. Fact is, in the right situation and mindset, weed, LSD and mushrooms can all give you special insights about the meaning of your life, your place in the world, and especially your relationships with others. I rarely do anything anymore and don't usually "enjoy" it when I do, but every time that I do, I'm better for it.

Beautifully put. Agree 100%.

Quote:

Complete bullshit. A trip lasts what, 5 hours? Yea, so you go 5 hours without shooting a gun, BFD. I've fucked when tripping. I've had incredibly intense conversations when tripping. I've reexamined my own morality and ways of treating others based on perspectives gained while tripping, far more effectively than relying on some fictional, antiquated book, be it the Bible, Koran, or Dianetics would've given me. As far as watching politicians, this post reeks of someone who needs to spend less time worrying about them, not more. But if that's where you choose to focus your energy after you eat a bag of shrooms you can certainly do that too.

THANK you!

Quote:

I agree with you, and it really comes down to moderation. But I can see where the guys ripping on psychedelics are coming from. It's like the internet. Of course you, I, and the others on this forum are using the internet to communicate with like-minded folks in a positive manner, seeking enlightenment and self-improvement. Once you remove the lens of self-bias "I use this thing this way, so everyone does," you realize that the majority of people are not using the internet to seek truth, they are using it to further brainwash themselves and/or consume worthless media/propaganda. The same can probably be said about psychedelics; is the average Joe gaining self enlightenment or doing it for the "sick visuals, bro" at whatever herpes breeding-ground music festival?

All the same, I'm of the opinion that the government shouldn't make laws about what we as autonomous humans consume and put into our bodies. I'm for legalization of shrooms and other substances. And the point about alcohol stands solid, alcohol is one of the most destructive substances available to humans, the fact that it is legal while medicinal plants have been illegal is the biggest fucking joke.

Exactly!

I think it was Joe Rogan who said, if weed fucked you up you were that way before the weed got there.