I have spent an ungodly amount of brain power on this and I think I have finally found at least one of the major reasons there is so much flaking going on today. The short answer: it's a symptom of our attention craving society.

The Internet and smartphones have made women attention addicts - literally. And the younger the girl the more of an addict she will be. They crave attention constantly. When you approach a girl today what you are giving her is exactly what she craves - attention! The stronger/better the approach the more attention it gives to her. In short when we approach the average girl today we are giving her the thing she craves the most - attention and validation. So regardless of how she really feels about us, firstly she will get a hit from the approach and depending on how good she feels she may do whatever is necessary to keep the attention flowing including giving you her contact info and "implying" that she may be interested in seeing you again. (As this one girl said: I only gave you my business card because you asked me my name.)

The problem with this is that her reaction and behavior then masks her true intent and feelings about you. In that moment, with her attention hit, she will positively glow. And you will think she is glowing because of you and in way she is. It's just not about you, it's from the attention you are giving to her. You might as well be giving her some crack cocaine. So you can't get an accurate read anymore when you approach a girl and this is really the BIG problem. I would like to say I have a solution but I don't. I have tested this theory by confronting and getting some of the girls I have approached recently to indirectly confirm it. One even apologized and admitted that she was married. The other issue with this is that once they are leaving your company the attention high will wear off fairly quickly because you are no longer around to feed it. So a girl could be acting positively excited in your presence but she's really not excited about you, she's just high from the attention. And once she leaves and that high wears off, she will be hard pressed to even remember what you look it and she will be looking for her next fix!

The only thing I can think of right now to counteract this is to break the high. Pull her down from her attention high and force her to deal with reality. Be direct about what you want, use very direct approaches. She will still get a hit but at least she will be forced to confront the reality of why you are there to some extent. Before you even ask for her phone number. Ask her out. Make it explicitly clear that your interest in her is sexual and that you want to see her again because of this. Some, and I repeat, some girls are going to feel bad about leading you on after this so they will admit to a relationship or whatever if they are really not interested BUT others will have no such qualms and will happily lead you on: sucking every drop of attention from you they can get.

In a recent post I advocated going both indirect and direct and while this works with girls outside of America. I now believe that in order to cut through the attention high you have to go direct. You have to shatter any illusion they may have about why you are standing in front of them and you need to cut off the attention as soon as possible. As least, this is what I intend to do going forward. I will have to wait and see how effective it will be.

I think this is pretty much spot-on.

Women have always been attention seekers (much more so than men), but in the last 5 - 10 years it has become much more pronounced due to the proliferation of smartphones and social media. Women nowadays are like coke addicts snorting 20 lines a day; anything less will leave them feeling low.

Regarding always approaching direct - I understand the rationale behind it, but there are problems with this because in some situations it's still simply not going to work (e.g. online dating sites).

Never have an outing dependent on one girl. Always be willing to cut them off, at least temporarily. People that lack proper social etiquette do not get invited to things. It really stings when they are off the list for the real cool stuff.

It's definitely your environment. Tier 1 western cities are flake havens for attractive women.

I'm in Moscow now, and I haven't been flaked on 1 time yet after countless dates. In fact, I've flaked on a few girls myself, due to so many options competing for my attention. This must be what it feels like to be a hot chick in the west.

I was talking to a older dude about this and he said back in the 80's a girl would never have taught about flaking and if they did they would call and make an counteroffer

Social etiquette has changed so much. I blame smartphones on this I honestly believe if every man called women out on this shitty behavior women would think twice about flaking but alas this will never happen.

Honestly if a woman flakes I lose interest I'm with Sameau on this that you don't chase chicks and if chick flakes oh well it sucks but fuck it on to the next one....

Quote: (06-05-2014 08:23 AM)Thesoloist Wrote:  

I honestly believe if every man called women out on this shitty behavior women would think twice about flaking but alas this will never happen.

Honestly if a woman flakes I lose interest I'm with Sameau on this that you don't chase chicks and if chick flakes oh well it sucks but fuck it on to the next one....

Calling a women out merely justifies her decision of flaking on you - it puts you in an emotionally unstable light, even if you've broached the subject in a way that seems logical/unemotional to you. The only person allowed to be emotionally unstable is her. As a man, you're the ballast; so be it, even if it means deciding not to respond. If you do respond, it needs to be as nonchalant as possible. Not derisive, not buoyant, nor earnest. A simple "no problem" will do just fine. Re-engage with a restart text in due course if you're still intending to pursue.

Providing a flake isn't you being literally stood up, there's always hope.

See this post, which may soften your stance.

Quote: (06-05-2014 08:43 AM)Windom Earle Wrote:  

Quote: (06-05-2014 08:23 AM)Thesoloist Wrote:  

I honestly believe if every man called women out on this shitty behavior women would think twice about flaking but alas this will never happen.

Honestly if a woman flakes I lose interest I'm with Sameau on this that you don't chase chicks and if chick flakes oh well it sucks but fuck it on to the next one....

Calling a women out merely justifies her decision of flaking on you - it puts you in an emotionally unstable light. The only person allowed to be emotionally unstable is her. As a man, you're the ballast; so be it, even if it means deciding not to respond.

Providing a flake isn't you being literally stood up, there's always hope.

See this post, which may soften your stance.

I realize that calling out women on flaking doesn't work but there are certain social etiquette that women follow i.e. unwritten rules. Flaking use to be one of them. Granted I wasn't dating back in the 70s-80s but when I talk to my uncles or the "older heads" this concept of flaking is so foreign to them

Personally speaking if a woman flakes I lose interest. My time is my most valuable asset that I have in this life, if a woman flakes that just lets me know she is not worthy of my time on to the next one.....

In my experience, shattering the illusion hasn't gotten me the best results because women aren't exactly masters at dealing with reality.

It's all about illusions. The most effective game for me has been to be sly as fuck. Direct with non-verbals, indirect with words.

Your biggest asset as a man is understanding reality and dealing with it.

Women have always been attention junkies, there is just more competition nowadays, so you have to step your game up and be more exciting than everything else.

The reality is that girls have at least 3-5 guys blowing up their phones just to kill time, but only 1 that they anxiously wait for his replies because he is more exciting than the rest.

You just have to be that 1.

Quote: (06-05-2014 08:47 AM)Thesoloist Wrote:  

Quote: (06-05-2014 08:43 AM)Windom Earle Wrote:  

Quote: (06-05-2014 08:23 AM)Thesoloist Wrote:  

I honestly believe if every man called women out on this shitty behavior women would think twice about flaking but alas this will never happen.

Honestly if a woman flakes I lose interest I'm with Sameau on this that you don't chase chicks and if chick flakes oh well it sucks but fuck it on to the next one....

Calling a women out merely justifies her decision of flaking on you - it puts you in an emotionally unstable light. The only person allowed to be emotionally unstable is her. As a man, you're the ballast; so be it, even if it means deciding not to respond.

Providing a flake isn't you being literally stood up, there's always hope.

See this post, which may soften your stance.

I realize that calling out women on flaking doesn't work but there are certain social etiquette that women follow i.e. unwritten rules. Flaking use to be one of them. Granted I wasn't dating back in the 70s-80s but when I talk to my uncles or the "older heads" this concept of flaking is so foreign to them

Personally speaking if a woman flakes I lose interest. My time is my most valuable asset that I have in this life, if a woman flakes that just lets me know she is not worthy of my time on to the next one.....

Women's high rate of flakiness in the current day is a shitty state of affairs, no doubt about it. Looking back to a bygone era for a benchmark in good social etiquette is moot however, since there's no turning back the clock.

Sure, time is precious, and a flake is a blatant disregard for you and your precious time. The only thing is, women don't think like that, so it's worthless putting an emphasis on the time wasting aspect of it all. For all you know, maybe she was really interested and the flake was an attempt at building your interest in her. Forest for the trees like.

I'd assume women were less flakey in the past because:

1. Didn't have the validation from social media
2. Education taught us that keeping promises were actually a virtue
3. Feminist movement that taught them bias against men

If you think about it that's almost like the abundance mentality most guys have been preaching here.

Girls have so many choices (even the average looking ones) that each guy they meet will just mean less and less to them. Imagine going to a restaurant and see dozens of choices on it, you'll probably feel overwhelmed and at the same time each item will be less meaningful to you. On the other hand you can have the exact same items except you only see 3 choices then they will have more value. It's just human nature, we take / settle for what we can have.

The one way you can overcome this is to identify their needs asap. Give them the illusion that you can provide their need. I remember reading the Art of Seduction and it explains that all human relationships are some form of seduction. You're seducing people by providing them fantasy and use it to bait them.

Perhaps that's why 50 Shades of Grey is so popular among middle age women. They were taught with traditional family value, men are better and suppose to lead, yet the feminist movement contradicts that thought. Hence the reason that women in power secretly want men to dominate them more so than women that don't have authority.

Even this will change since the education system is changing. Young women are taught that they should be independent and self sufficient. Game will have to change and adapt, as the next generation will be a whole other world.

I agree that calling women out for flaking generally doesn't help.

You have to prevent her from flaking in the first place by getting her extremely attracted to you and then fucking her as soon as possible.

If a woman flakes and you call her out on it, this just indicates that your value is lower than her's because you want her attention.

If she does flake on you but the interaction between you two is continuing - you need to make sure that she knows that her flaking on you doesn't affect you whatsoever.

Remember, you're a high value male with options and she is lucky to even be a part of your life.

Taking the position that you are just going to next them ONLY works IF their behavior is not the norm. When a behavior becomes the norm then you are working against the law of averages. If 80% of the girls in your city behaves in a certain way then selecting another girl merely means that it is very likely you will have the same problem again. Your options are either to find a way to work with these damaged girls or leave the city/country. Since, most men can't leave including myself right now, I have to figure out a way to counteract this as best as possible. The direct approach won't work in many instances but I believe it can help to reduce or filter the girls that really have no interest in you vs the ones that at least have some.

There is also another option as General pointed out: you can just play along and try to be the most entertaining clown around. That can work but it's a lot of work because you are competing against an unknown all the time. You are also competing against the novelty of NEW. Personally, my intention is to force them to just get real with me. Not necessarily to shatter their illusions just to crack it enough so that I am communicating with the real girl.

@Biologist You may be a high valued male but your options in a city where 80% are alike doesn't really exist it's just an illusion. At the end of the day all this does is increase your numbers - the number of girls you have to go through to find a half decent one. Which in turn translates into more work. You are better off moving to another city or country if at all possible.

I say it's several factors involved (listed in no particular order):

1. Information overload. They have too many 'options'.
2. Brains that aren't wired to process information, especially in a timely manner. Biochemistry at work.
3. Thinking there's 'someone better' just waiting for them.
4. Technology, specifically texting and email, that eliminate personal contact that makes flaking easier. They can evade responsibility. It's easier to blow someone off when they don't have to talk or have face-to-face contact.
5. Having a completely and totally delusional opinion of both themselves and their value; they think they are princesses, entitled to what they consider 'the best', regardless of how fat, gross, socially inept or just plain defective they really are.
6. Overall lack of civility in today's (Western and Westernized) world.

@Nomad77 - Although it would never happen on a mass scale like women do it, if men counter-attacked with flakiness of their own, and really committed to it, we would see flake rates fall dramatically amongst women.

But then again, thirsty betas and social media propping up women's attention levels in this day and age may be too far gone to make a dent. Who knows.

Yes, if we acted collectively if would be effective but ALL of the men on this forum and all of the men in the rest of the country like us, only amount to less than 1% of the population - simply not enough to make any kind of significant impact.

Another reason women behave flaky is that they literally have more and more power. As the gender role shift women are calling the shots more and more in relationships. So they are like the big boss with the attitude of like you will either put up with my shit or hit the road because I have a line outside my door. And even the fat girls do have lines outside of their doors. Sure, we may be the most attractive option BUT that only comes into play for girls that are really looking for a man. For girls that are just looking for attention and entertainment that is not the primary deciding factor.

Sometimes I like to engage in a little flake war with a chick, I'll just accuse her of flaking in a playful way, for a time that we didnt even set, or if she does flake, I'll flake on her next. I only do this with girls I am about to fuck or have already. Its a fun little game and I like being a game player. You know that if she keeps texting you, shes into you.

I learned the hard way not to accuse a women of anything. It only bites you in the end. And then she hates you. And it looks weak. Just dont say anything. Walk away, either find someone else or lay in wait until in fact, you do lay her.

Quote: (06-05-2014 09:42 AM)Nomad77 Wrote:  

@Biologist You may be a high valued male but your options in a city where 80% are alike doesn't really exist it's just an illusion. At the end of the day all this does is increase your numbers - the number of girls you have to go through to find a half decent one. Which in turn translates into more work. You are better off moving to another city or country if at all possible.

It seems that whenever a country becomes economically developed, and the women of that country become no longer financially independent on men we see a rise in things like women becoming flaky, avoiding marriage and relationships and pursuing only the top 5-10% of men in society.

The way I see it is that as a man, the only thing we can do is what do best - adapt to the situation. We have two options:

1) As you mentioned, move to another city or country that will give you an advantage when it comes to pulling women.

2) If you need to stay in your current city or country, you'll need to increase your value. This can be done by doing things like going to the gym to get a better body, improving your bankroll, pursuing interests and hobbies, widening your social circle etc. The higher your value is, the more incentive a woman will have to maintain her connection with you (as opposed to flaking).

I agree but increasing your value only works for women that are looking for men. A lot of women are not looking for men, they are just looking for attention and sex on demand. They are looking for what they want when they want it and how they want it. And the higher your value as a male the higher the value of your attention.

Quote: (06-05-2014 10:20 AM)Nomad77 Wrote:  

I agree but increasing your value only works for women that are looking for men. A lot of women are not looking for men, they are just looking for attention and sex on demand. They are looking for what they want when they want it and how they want it. And the high the value as a male the higher the value of your attention.

I agree. I was actually about to start a thread about the topic of women not wanting relationships anymore.

It's the result of women living in a society with a high standard of living, where they can easily gain decently paid employment and know that whatever happens, they'll still be on easy street.

Let's face the reality, we all want a relationship BUT we would prefer one on our terms. Up until 20 years ago men dictated the terms of relationships now that is changing in the Western world. Women are selecting beta males for relationships because they are going to put up with all the shit from them and selecting alpha males as lovers so they don't have to deal with them on a regular basis. This way they get the best of both worlds. It's the same as the men marrying the "good girl" and sleeping around with the slut. The "alpha males" of today is the equivalent of the female slut and to a large extent used as such by women.

Quote: (06-05-2014 02:20 AM)Nomad77 Wrote:  

Pull her down from her attention high and force her to deal with reality. Be direct about what you want, use very direct approaches. She will still get a hit but at least she will be forced to confront the reality of why you are there to some extent. Before you even ask for her phone number. Ask her out. Make it explicitly clear that your interest in her is sexual and that you want to see her again because of this.

Forcing anyone to do anything is the wrong approach.

“The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting.”

The second half of your paragraph above is right on the money, though. It's all about INTENT and HOW SHE FEELS. Flaking is the result of bad game or of an uncalibrated player, not the result of girl culture.

If you walk up to a girl and intend to bang, and you make this known, and she feels good about it, then you will bang her. If you ask for her number and ask to go on a "date" sometime, well then you have dug your own grave and the fault is your own.

I have written much more about this here: http://www.rooshvforum.network/thread-28403.html

My experience on the east coast is, even going direct means nothing if you didn't get sdl/snl. I'm not counting online dating as there's no masculine chemistry injected from the outset. It's 100x easier to flake from online because it 'doesn't count'.

If you stop a girl on the streets of nyc, and aren't prepared to drag her to your centrally located apt or some other readily available spot, and have to settle for a #, you'll be playing text gymnastics to get her out. You're no longer the guy, but another guy. Now she has the guys at work, online dating, the bartender down her street, her drug dealer, and the other guys who approached her competing in her mind.

Sure there's text tricks, restart texts and fancy tiger pictures, but the fundamental truth is you're competing for her attention again if you're using the phone.

She saw your text, you're in her holding pattern whether you like it or not.

Don't underestimate how much girls are approached. Sometimes being the anti-social prick at the bar or train gets girls hovering to me. It's not about approach anxiety anymore but approach economics. If everyone's buying her attention, sell the inflated junk, get it away.

After entertainer game, i think ignore game will be the only game that gets the hamsters spinning towards you in the usa, and that's no guarantee unless you can ignore her then jedi mind trick her back to your spot.

Emotional high, not breakig the bubble and tight Logistics are what's needed at the minimum in the usa. And even so the average american girl has such little femininity that she'll try and psych you out every step of the way.

It's absurd to need such tight game for such overvalued pussy when foreign girls play things straight while looking nicer and being interesting to talk to.

We all need to pull a Roosh; flake on American girls by getting out of dodge. Suffocate the fire. 'Where are all the good men?' Overseas honey.

Quote: (06-05-2014 10:37 AM)Nomad77 Wrote:  

Let's face the reality, we all want a relationship BUT we would prefer one on our terms. Up until 20 years ago men dictated the terms of relationships now that is changing in the Western world. Women are selecting beta males for relationships because they are going to put up with all the shit from them and selecting alpha males as lovers so they don't have to deal with them on a regular basis. This way they get the best of both worlds. It's the same as the men marrying the "good girl" and sleeping around with the slut. The "alpha males" of today is the equivalent of the female slut and to a large extent used as such by women.

Hit the nail on the head with this.

It's scary how far the tables (and roles) have turned.

Social interaction in the Western world (and in the US especially) is highly artificial. Words here mean about as much as Ralph Nader's political campaigns.

How many times have you been told "We'll be in touch with you" following a job interview only to never hear from the employer again? This shit happens all the time.

Flaking is part of a greater trend of the killing of all genuine social encounters.

"Time is money", they say.

I really needed to have a look at this thread right now, because flaking is the one thing that has been insanely bothering me recently.


In the last 2 days I got flaked on 2 times, plus two other girls I went out with, got makeouts, but failed to fuck even though I had tight logistics on my side have completely stopped texting me. It's frustrating as fuck especially when I'm building this tight wonderful lifestyle for myself, have never been fitter and better looking, and everything seems to be going just perfectly in my life.

I know that there is a subtle balance of blaming society for my current woes vs blaming myself, and I make it a habit to change myself and evolve whenever I'm faced with a bad situation in life.

and because of this I recently caught myself thinking...

When am I going to be good enough?

I know this is the wrong attitude to have, but that doesn't discount the fact that I've thought that way.
Im just glad to see that its something a lot of other very experienced, very socially attractive men are dealing with so it's not just a case of coming off as "not alpha enough" or whatever.

Thanks bros