After 80yrs under communism (USSR) countries like Estonia, Poland, Ukraine, and many many more FSU nations gained independence only around 1991.

For 80 yrs these FSU countries lost their independence, identity, language, culture, currency, human rights, populations and other freedoms as part of the USSR.

Its been only 20yrs since gaining independence and these nations are already head over heels jumping into another bureaucratic nightmarish relationship with the EU, who for despite all assurances seems weaker by the day.

I do see potential economic gains and maybe even prestige by joining the EU, but all these in the face of sovereignty and self governance fades away.

Why cant these fsu countries wait and try to rediscover themselves, regain their identities build a better socio economic environment by themselves.

I mean estonia, latvia, czech rep are already almost at par with western europe. So why jump through german and french hoops just after jumping through russian hoops for so long?

One word: money.

money and estonia, latvia and czech republic are on par with western europe because they are already in the EU. Only the Ukraine isnt from all the countries you mentioned.

You can't print cash way easier in the EU. Access to debt creation is the biggest carrot the EU has for perspective members.

I will had something more: Fear of Rusia. They know they are small players in the world, and prefer to asociate with the EU than with Rusia.

Why not? Easy traveling, being part of smt. Also occupation lasted 50 years, before occupation Estonia was also oriented more to Europe than East.

all those countries were orientated to europe more than russia before occupation bar The Ukraine and Belarus.

Estonia joined the EU in 2004 and the euro in 2011.

Latvia joined the EU also in 2004, but hasn't joined the euro yet.

Because joining the EU doesn't mean losing your national identity. It's not some kind of communist programme for suppression of individual identity, for gods' sake. In fact, if it weren't for many EU-sponsored programs (like Erasmus), many people would never get an understanding or respect for any other other country, simply because they would never be exposed to their culture.

There are plenty of reasons not to join the EU (over-regulation in some areas, supporting poor neighbors (if you're rich), losing monetary independence (you can't print your own money and depend on ECB in this regard, so no more individual country running expansionary policies)... but a threat to national identity surely isn't one of them.

Quote: (11-15-2013 04:50 PM)Icarus Wrote:  

Latvia joined the EU also in 2004, but hasn't joined the euro yet.

Latvia is switching to the Euro on Jan.1.

The EU offered those countries a framework for their government and regulations. Without that framework, they would be like Russia and Ukraine where normal people can't get medical treatment, the average man dies at 65, kids are sick twice as often because of pollution and low-quality food, tap water is barely good enough for bathing, let alone drinking, war veterans (let alone regular pensioners) get a pension so small they can't afford to eat so their families have to subsidise them. Then when someone dies, they have to pay a bribe so the ambulance will take the body away in an hour instead of 12 hours when it starts to rot. By the way, mortgage rates in Russia run at around 12% and in the Baltics they're around 5%. Sounds great, doesn't it?

"I mean estonia, latvia, czech rep are already almost at par with western europe" those countries have been EU members since 2004 and were working towards it since the late '90s. Trying to deny that the EU helped those countries is pig headed, to be honest. If you actually live in some of those countries and in others which didn't align themselves, you'll see there is an enormous difference today.

Also the cost of living is much lower anywhere in Central Europe or the Baltics when compared to Ukraine or Russia. Belarus is comparable, but there isn't much opportunity there for work and they've had a few currency crises where inflation rendered the local currency worthless.

Quote: (11-16-2013 07:37 AM)Handsome Creepy Eel Wrote:  

Because joining the EU doesn't mean losing your national identity. It's not some kind of communist programme for suppression of individual identity, for gods' sake. In fact, if it weren't for many EU-sponsored programs (like Erasmus), many people would never get an understanding or respect for any other other country, simply because they would never be exposed to their culture.

There are plenty of reasons not to join the EU (over-regulation in some areas, supporting poor neighbors (if you're rich), losing monetary independence (you can't print your own money and depend on ECB in this regard, so no more individual country running expansionary policies)... but a threat to national identity surely isn't one of them.

you won't lose your national identity joining the EU today, but there are ongoing plans of making a 'United States of Europe'. it will go through eventually and slowly, everyone will refer to themselves as "european" rather than "british" or "italian" or "polish" etc etc. it'll just be a messy mush of different european cultures merging into a single "european" culture.

Because then people would be eligible to find jobs in the entire EU

Quote: (12-03-2013 03:19 PM)darion Wrote:  

you won't lose your national identity joining the EU today, but there are ongoing plans of making a 'United States of Europe'. it will go through eventually and slowly, everyone will refer to themselves as "european" rather than "british" or "italian" or "polish" etc etc. it'll just be a messy mush of different european cultures merging into a single "european" culture.

I'll only believe this on the day Southern Italy is as efficient and productive as Germany.

Hell, Quebec is part of Canada, which is part of the British Commonwealth - and they speak French and don't consider themselves subjects of the Queen.

Various reasons as listed above. Also, regarding Ukraine; Abolishing corruption, escaping the iron grip of Moscow, establishing modern infrastructure etc. Put better by the man himself:






For all the EU's faults, politicians in it's member states aren't getting poisoned and stuff, like what happens in Russian/Ukrainian politics.

Luboš Motl, Czech theoretical physicist, former professor at Harvard, and one of the most intelligent men alive, has some interesting thoughts on Ukraine:

Ukraine's place in Europe is a subtle issue (2013)

An excerpt:

Quote:Quote:

Thousands of people rallying in the Ukrainian capital demand the resignation of the pro-Moscow president Yanukovitch after he refused to sign a pro-EU trade deal, apparently favoring a closer economic integration with Russia (Putin uses the carrot-and-stick approach to make sure that such an attitude may be rational). The protests turned violent and some of the opposition groups claim that the violence was added to the mix by Yanukovitch's provocateurs. I am aware of no protocol to find out who is right. Like during the "Orange Revolution" in 2004, many people in the West think that these events are very important. Well, I don't think so. People in the West love to think that all the nations of the Soviet bloc – and perhaps even all the nations of the Soviet Union – are free-minded Western-like nations who are being constantly suppressed by foul techniques of the Russians. It ain't so. Especially in the U.S., many of the misconceptions boil down to a poor knowledge of geography.

The very interference Russia is trying to run in the Ukraine currently should be answer enoug.

It is the choice between sucking German cock or Russian cock.

It's surprising that there's been almost no discussion here about the major protests currently going on in Kiev over this issue.

I was in Ukraine the week that Clinton and NATO were bombing Serbia. There were peaceful protests in Kiev. Look at some of the videos of protestors pepper spraying and attacking police, and the police don't even have guns. In America, they would have been met with ruthless violence. In America, boys are blown away by cops for having toy guns. Kiev is the birthplace of the Slavic nation. Are the majority of Ukranians really in favor of joining the EU?

Ukraine should join the EU.

both sides would benefit of it

Not a big EU fan. But stuck in it, so can't really do anything more now other than putting up with it.

I'd like Ukraine in.

Ukrainian pros are drooling for the opportunity to make big money in the West.Germanic old men will see joy in their pants once again.So better have them isolated in motherland for exclusive visits and constant dreams of the western penis.

I probably shouldn't look at it this way, but when I saw baltic countries joining the EU, and now this impending Ukraine process, all I can think of is easier access to Ukranian hot women! Screw economics

Quote: (12-14-2013 08:47 AM)LEMONed IScream Wrote:  

I probably shouldn't look at it this way, but when I saw baltic countries joining the EU, and now this impending Ukraine process, all I can think of is easier access to Ukranian hot women! Screw economics

It doesn't quite work like that.

Once they enter the EU it wil be easier for them to travel and work in other EU countries. The value of Western men to them 'take me London!' will dissipate, their girl friends will send home anecdotes about how much easier it is for them in the West etc. If you plan on visiting Kiev to game chicks then you DO NOT want them to join the EU.